Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

I'm not going to argue with you. Obviously it would be about 1/3 of the 11g, so it would take a little longer. You go on believing what you want.

You?re completely ignoring the evaporation process in your theory. If a thunder storm comes through each afternoon and drops a 1/4" of rain each time, would you there be 1.75" of rain on your drive at the end of the week?

We all know that is not true. As soon as the "condensation" cycle ends, the evaporation cycle begins. Condensation and evaporation cycles keep thing in equilabrium. Ignoring the process is a major flaw in your hypothesis.

I have already posted two government studies that refute your condensation theory. Both say it's chemically impossible to condensate more water than the fuel saturation point.

If you can point me to some studies done by reputable organizations or firms to support hypothesis, I?d like to see them.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

E-10 ethanol fuel begins to separate the second it leaves the pump. My current job is working in a small engine shop, and 90% of the running problems I deal with are related to phase seperation of E-10 fuel. Honda and Briggs & Stratton do not recommend using fuel over 30 days old.
This can be avoided by using a fuel stabilizer immediately upon fueling. Adding stabilizer to "bad" fuel will not make it "good," however. If you are running a two-stroke, check to see if the oil that you use (pre-mix only) has stabilizer "built-in." Hope this helps.

We must get the magic blend of E-10 here in MN. Never had an issue - especially in something like a lawnmower/chainsaw which will run on whatever crap you have available. The common way to get rid of bad/old gas around here is to use it in your lawnmower. (Current batch of lawnmower gas came out of a 78 F150 that had been sitting for 3 years)

 

[Beefer]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

You?re completely ignoring the evaporation process in your theory. If a thunder storm comes through each afternoon and drops a 1/4" of rain each time, would you there be 1.75" of rain on your drive at the end of the week?

We all know that is not true. As soon as the "condensation" cycle ends, the evaporation cycle begins. Condensation and evaporation cycles keep thing in equilabrium. Ignoring the process is a major flaw in your hypothesis.

I have already posted two government studies that refute your condensation theory. Both say it's chemically impossible to condensate more water than the fuel saturation point.

If you can point me to some studies done by reputable organizations or firms to support hypothesis, I?d like to see them.

So you're saying that condensation just doesn't exist in nature? Evaporation keeps it in check, and it just doesn't happen? So the hundreds of boaters that are having phase separation problems, and water in their fuel are having those problems because they are, what, adding water? Where does the evaporated moisture go? Out the vent? For that to happen, I believe the atmospheric pressure inside the tank would have to be greater then the pressure outside.

Oh, and there are lots of special interest groups and lobbyists that *may* sway some governmental findings. Just saying, and let's keep the government and politics out of this.

There are tons of threads about water related issues in E10 and phase separation on numerous sites, and I think it's reasonable to say that it is a real issue out there.

 

[nlain]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

My first boat sat for nearly 2 years without being run due to things I could not control, I used highway gas, ethanol mix, in that boat. When I got ready to use it again I did a tune up and fuel filter change, new battery, chased a couple electrical problems and started the engine on the muffs, ran it about 20 min and then put it in the water and ran it there, it ran fine. That boat was always stored with a full gas tank, I did not use any treatments other than an occasional bottle of stp gas treatment, nothing to prevent anything from happening. If ethanol gas was going to separate as bad as some would have you believe that gas would separated. I personally do not think that ethanol gas separates that bad, now should you get water in your tank then things can happen, if you store the boat with a full tank of gas then condensation is not a problem. My current boat is stored with a full tank of gas, I do use the regular Stabil now and an occasional can of Sea Foam, I still have no problems. Just my thoughts from personal experience.

 

[Beefer]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

My first boat sat for nearly 2 years without being run due to things I could not control, I used highway gas, ethanol mix, in that boat. When I got ready to use it again I did a tune up and fuel filter change, new battery, chased a couple electrical problems and started the engine on the muffs, ran it about 20 min and then put it in the water and ran it there, it ran fine. That boat was always stored with a full gas tank, I did not use any treatments other than an occasional bottle of stp gas treatment, nothing to prevent anything from happening. If ethanol gas was going to separate as bad as some would have you believe that gas would separated. I personally do not think that ethanol gas separates that bad, now should you get water in your tank then things can happen, if you store the boat with a full tank of gas then condensation is not a problem. My current boat is stored with a full tank of gas, I do use the regular Stabil now and an occasional can of Sea Foam, I still have no problems. Just my thoughts from personal experience.

How long ago? You say it was your first boat. May have been before E10 was introduced in your area, so it may not be applicable. If it was stored with a full tank, then there is no air volume to allow for the condensation. The problem is when tanks are not filled up that the condensation can occur, resulting in the problems. I give up. You guys are right, E10 is great for your boats, and their engines, and you'll never have a problem related to it. Just leave in the older grey fuel lines, and happily run E10 through it, leave your boats stored with a half tank of untreated E10 for a year or two, and go play. May God be with you, and make sure you have towing coverage. I'm done.

 

[swaycleveland]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

maybe i missed it, but did you change the filter on the carb? if you didnt do it and if you did nevermind. also read this
http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_outboard_boat_fuel.html
very helpful. i have already ordered my pri-g. however i add new gas every week so i more then likely wont have a separation problem. but i still am concerned about it.
on a side note after using seafoam for many many years i am now having second thoughts about adding it to my gas. i will however continue to use it to de-carb all my engines. i know it works well in that reguard.
just my .02

 

[Mark42]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

There are numerous threads on the condensation and fuel separation claims. The notion that condensation can lead to any sizable amount of water in a tank has been disproved various times. There is one great website that has all the info. Just google for it.

I have always siphoned the tanks dry after boat season and they sit all winter with maybe half a gallon of fuel in them and the vent open. Never seen a drop of water in the tank or in the clear bowl filters. Not ever.

What has been proven is that the chances are the water found in fuel tanks was either pumped there from a filling station or there is a leak on the top of the tank or fittings.

Pump the tanks dry, get a water separating filter and check it often, especially if you fill up at marinas as opposed to gas stations.

 

[nlain]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

How long ago? You say it was your first boat. May have been before E10 was introduced in your area, so it may not be applicable. If it was stored with a full tank, then there is no air volume to allow for the condensation. The problem is when tanks are not filled up that the condensation can occur, resulting in the problems. I give up. You guys are right, E10 is great for your boats, and their engines, and you'll never have a problem related to it. Just leave in the older grey fuel lines, and happily run E10 through it, leave your boats stored with a half tank of untreated E10 for a year or two, and go play. May God be with you, and make sure you have towing coverage. I'm done.

Just stating personal experience and feelings, it was E10, we have had for many years, that boat was a 87 model and was used until I bought the current boat in 04. My tank stays full when stored, always has for that very reason, no room for condensation. I am not saying that there are no problems at all, there are or were with older boats and their fuel systems, I just do not think it separates as bad as some say, yes add water and you have had it, keep the water out and you are good for quite some time, yes gas will go bad, it will lose octane over time.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

The Myth of Condensation in Fuel Tanks

by David Pascoe


http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm​

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[oldjeep]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

The Myth of Condensation in Fuel Tanks

by David Pascoe

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm​

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Don't go bringing science into this. Ethanol is the devil. We've had it for 20 years and not a day goes by that I don't see 80% of the cars on the side of the road with fuel related issues. If we had any boats here in MN we would really be in trouble.

 

[Rscardina]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

My .02 cents on the subject...

Fuel tanks in boats are vented for both air in and out reasons.. on hot days the eveaporation of fuel makes it such that you r tank is at a higher pressure than atmospheric.. on cooler days you could have the reverse but not so much to make a huge water intrusion situation..

I think the biggest killer is the fuel station you go to.. Here in MA as well as other states they are regulated and inspected for saftey and a bunch of other things..however, each station depending on location IS allowed to have WATER in their tanks so long as it doesnt go above the max permisable levels.

On certain days the stations have a large stick with a crayon type thing attched to measure the level of fuel as well as water at the bottom of their tanks...the water levels must stay within some specification but is allowed.

SO...when stations get their tanks refilled the water in the bottom gets mixed up with the new gas going in and this is where water suspended in the gas can effect your tanks..especially when you fill up the same day a fuel delivery occured..

it pays to know the place you fuel up at..know their refill schedules and get gas a day or two after the fill...this will give time for the water to settle out so you dont pay 2.68 per gallon of water!

 

[109jb]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

OK. Then all you that are saying that condensation does not occur in a fuel tank explain to me how my airplane that is kept in a completely enclosed hangar and is fueled from a source that is checked for water and contaminents regularly winds up with water in the fuel tanks if left with the tanks only partially filled but has no water in the tanks if I fill it before I park it.

On one occasion when I couldn't fly it for about 6 months due to an injury I sumped about 1/2 quart of water from each main tank. Those tanks are 30 gallons, about what a lot of our boat fuel tanks hold. Now I will say that this was Avgas which has no alcohol, so it takes much less water to precipitate out of suspension, but depending on the quantity of gas in the tank 1/2 quart would be enogh to cause separation.

I will agree that it is not likely but my personal experience says it can and does. You all believe and do what you want. Keeping the tanks full on my boat isn't a big deal to me and I will continue to do so. It surely won't hurt.

 

[sickwilly]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

E-10 ethanol fuel begins to separate the second it leaves the pump. My current job is working in a small engine shop, and 90% of the running problems I deal with are related to phase seperation of E-10 fuel. Honda and Briggs & Stratton do not recommend using fuel over 30 days old.
This can be avoided by using a fuel stabilizer immediately upon fueling. Adding stabilizer to "bad" fuel will not make it "good," however. If you are running a two-stroke, check to see if the oil that you use (pre-mix only) has stabilizer "built-in." Hope this helps.

So what your saying is that you guys only had 10% of the work you do now prior to E-10? How would a repair shop have existed prior to E-10? Thank god for E-10 because it increased 9 fold the amount of work small engine repair shops do, and put great amounts of mechanics to work across the country!

Come on, 90% of your work is attributable to E-10, what did y'all do before E-10? Lets go to E-15 then, and you will get another 45% increase in work. You will be able to make the boat payments of a surgeon!

 

[seansmoneypit]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

How about we all agree that Ethanol gas is a problem among boat operators and leave it at that. I am having the same problem with a boat that sat for 2 years and the tank FULL...had alot of water in it. (and was treated with stabil) So instead of killing this subject, if you have old gas, drain it or try to get the water out, buy a fuel separator and treat your gas at each fill. Plain and simple folks.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

How about we all agree that Ethanol gas is a problem among boat operators and leave it at that. I am having the same problem with a boat that sat for 2 years and the tank FULL...had alot of water in it. (and was treated with stabil) So instead of killing this subject, if you have old gas, drain it or try to get the water out, buy a fuel separator and treat your gas at each fill. Plain and simple folks.

If the tank was full - how did "a lot of water" fit? Far as I know neither gasoline or ethanol is capable of turning into water. (Although if you are a religious sort, you might believe that you can turn water into ethanol)

 

[PiratePast40]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

I'll bet that if we asked the ladies on "The View", they'd tell us for sure who's behind all of this!

 

[nlain]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

If the tank was full - how did "a lot of water" fit? Far as I know neither gasoline or ethanol is capable of turning into water. (Although if you are a religious sort, you might believe that you can turn water into ethanol)

Water was pumped in with the gas.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

Water was pumped in with the gas.

Yes..... the right answer! Far too many people are putting the blame on fuel and actually the blame should be on the distributor.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

Pascoe's correct in that a cubic meter of air will hold about an ounce of water. His problem is that he doesn't account for that air being constantly replaced so it ALWAYS has an ounce of water in it. The water is constantly being condensed out of the air by the cool walls of the tank. Fresh humid air can flow into the tank vent faster than the water can condense out, so it's not limited by the amount of water that's in the initial tank volume. Airplane guys are REAL concious of this, that's why you always drain the tanks. Falling out of the air when the motor quits isn't much fun.

Same reason the evaporater on your air conditioner has a drain. Anyone doubt that water runs out of the A/C drain hose on their car? Put your A/C on recirculate so all the outside vents are closed and only a small amount of outside air can get in, and watch the drain hose. You only have about 3 cubic meters of air in your car so the most water that should be able to come out of your drain hose is 3 ounces, right? Down here in New Orleans, it'll be a steady stream. More like 3 ounces a minute down here. The little bit of outside air getting into the car (just like the vent on your tank) is carrying a steady supply of humid air.

Over the past few years I've had the joy of fixing a few vehicles that had been parked for over a year while their owners were overseas. All three were running fine when they were parked.

First one was a Toyota pickup. Fuel pump wouldn't work. Gas tank was half full of gas, had a couple of inches of water in the sump at the bottom of the tank and a corroded fuel pump. The walls of the tank were corroded with a light coat of rust above the level of the fuel. Replaced the pump, cleaned the tank and it runs fine.

Second one was a Corvette that I parked for a year after rebuilding the engine. Filled the gas tank to the top, put Stabil in it, drove it 20 miles and parked it at a friends house. Came back a year later and the fuel pump didn't work. Bottom of fuel pump was corroded, tank had a couple of inches of water in the bottom. Replaced the pump, cleaned the tank, it runs fine now.

Third one was a Toyota 4-Runner. Similar to the pickup, it was parked over a year with about a half tank of gas. Again, went to start it and the fuel pump didn't work. Had a couple of inches of water in the sump at the bottom of the tank, bottom of the fuel pump was corroded. Sides of the tank were also rusted above the level of the gas. Had to replace the tank on this one because the walls of the tank had rusted so badly that it had a couple of pin holes in it. Replaced the tank and fuel pump and it also runs fine.

I have another Toyota pickup that's been sitting about 2 years. The tank is full, but I have no doubt that enough water has condensed in the tank to rust out the fuel pump. I'll probably mess with it when the weather cools off, I'll try to remember to take pics.

Obviously it makes a big difference how often you use your engine and where you are. Cranking a motor every for a few minutes every couple of months would probably pull off enough water from the tank so you'd never have any problem or know it was there. Air with less moisture than we have in New Orleans or Florida would also make a big difference.

 

[Fed]

Re: Ethanol Fuel Seperation Problems

I wish Mythbusters would do a show on Condensation in Fuel Tanks, Cars Boats & Planes.
I'd be happy to accept their results.