Random No-Start Condition

[urbanredneck]

Hi guys.

I have had this issue occur in the past. Thought I had it resolved, but apparently not.

Motor : 87' E40ELCUD , running premix.
I go to start motor with normal procedure, and it just cranks. No start. Starter engages. Fuel gets pumped in.

History: Bought boat/motor this winter and had some typical bogging, hard starts, etc. Its got fresh carbs, new plugs. Starting running better then found a bit lower compression on bottom cylinder.

Did a nice de-carb, and seemed all my problems went away. Its been out a dozen plus times lately. Running like a champ. Starts great, idles great. WOT great.

I get out to the lake this weekend, same ghost no start condition pops back up. First time months ago when this condition originally occured, motor died when i put it into neutral from drive. Motor died, and wouldn't start for a few hours. Went out the next day to mess with it, same issue. Then boom, was fine and it statyed.

Ran spark test, hard to tell in the sunlight (inline tester, by myself 10ft away). But seems as that's what im missing. But its only at random times.

So Someone mentioned it was ignition related. I can't seem to troubleshoot the issue since it WILL start eventually, then will start every time, first crank after that .

So this weekend. While dead on the water, i took apart the control/shift box. Everything looked great. I touched nothing. Put it back together, boom. Started right up .

So, say I have a coil or power pack on it's way out. Would it be so, if it worked some times, and not others, or would it be toast all together?
Couldn't be neutral safety switch, that kills the starter on my motor.
Dead mans switch WILL cut spark if its engaged however.

What other troubleshooting can I do if the motor is in a mode of wanting to start? How can i troubleshoot it when it's not 100% broken? How can i identify a possible worn component?

Any other tips on what could be causing this would be fantastic. Its got to be some electrical fluke. Everything else is solid. And once its done being a freak, starts up no problem.

Sorry for the novel. Thanks a bunch folks.

 

[jakedaawg]

Welcome to the real world. Intermittent is tough. Your going to have to get a few tools.

A remote start switch or a gc-73
An open air gap spark checker preferably one that will do both cylinders at once.
Five little wires with male and female am phenol pins and sockets.

Next time it won't start install spark checker. Place one lead of remote start switch on the small yel/red terminal of starter solenoid. Other lead goes on. The big red lug of solenoid coming from the battery. Ignition switch in the on position crank with remote start and observe spark. If no or only one spark disconnect five pin am phenol connector. Jump the four leads that are not blk/yel. If you now have spark time to test key switch and kill circuit. If you don't have spark report back.

 

[urbanredneck]

Welcome to the real world. Intermittent is tough. Your going to have to get a few tools.

A remote start switch or a gc-73
An open air gap spark checker preferably one that will do both cylinders at once.
Five little wires with male and female am phenol pins and sockets.

Next time it won't start install spark checker. Place one lead of remote start switch on the small yel/red terminal of starter solenoid. Other lead goes on. The big red lug of solenoid coming from the battery. Ignition switch in the on position crank with remote start and observe spark. If no or only one spark disconnect five pin am phenol connector. Jump the four leads that are not blk/yel. If you now have spark time to test key switch and kill circuit. If you don't have spark report back.

Thanks for the reply. Ill be honest , the phenol pin stuff is way over my head. And your instructions didnt really get fully comprehended. But. It gives an idea of where to start.

One thing that i recall from my prior troubleshooting is that i couldn't get the motor to even crank over enough for just a spark test while using a remote device.
Flywheel would turn about a quarter of a turn, very slowly. Made a little vrrrap vrrrap noise like it was attempting to crank but had no juice behind it or something.
The unit was SnapOn, so doubtful to be defective. Maybe I had it hooked up wrong? Alls i know was it sas a complete failure and had to have a friend come over to turn the ignition over so I could be in front of the block to monitor spark (was fine) .

But...maybe if you have some photos of a general nature that might assist me. I got confused when you got to the point about the 5 pin dealio.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[jakedaawg]

Amphenol connectors are the little pin and socket plugs at the wire ends you can buy just the ends to make jumper wires for testing.

I just made a post to resolve my ability issues when it comes to pics. I am not smart enough to post them yet.

The manual states the testing clearer possibly.

As for your snap on bump switch not working. I would suggest making sure all connectionso are good.

 

[jakedaawg]

I have been attempting to post some pics of these tools so people can get an idea of what a tech uses. Many are not that expensive and have lasted me 20 plus years.

 

[oldboat1]

Think I would look for the simple stuff first. Start with the starter/cranking circuit -- getting the motor to "crank" or "turn over", whether or not it fires/starts. Use sandpaper on the battery connections, starter and solenoid connections -- start with the battery connections and test (See if that is the problem.) If it turns slowly, it's either the battery (most likely) or the starter. You need a fresh, fully charged battery -- start with that.

Try jumping if necessary, and see if that makes a difference -- jump to the battery like you would in jumping a car battery. You can also jump directly to the starter (positive lead is at the bottom of the starter). If the motor cranks that way, you know the starter is good.

The motor has to crank pretty fast to energize the ignition, so starter circuit issues are the first to tackle.

Decarbonizing can clog up your carb, by the way -- can loosen up and move stuff around in there. There is obviously no carbon in the carburetor -- just varnish from fuel, and possibly debris from the tank and lines. You can't clean it out unless you dismantle the carb and clean it -- which is to say, you might just be due for a carb cleaning and rebuild (not difficult).

 

[urbanredneck]

Think I would look for the simple stuff first. Start with the starter/cranking circuit -- getting the motor to "crank" or "turn over", whether or not it fires/starts. Use sandpaper on the battery connections, starter and solenoid connections -- start with the battery connections and test (See if that is the problem.) If it turns slowly, it's either the battery (most likely) or the starter. You need a fresh, fully charged battery -- start with that.

Try jumping if necessary, and see if that makes a difference -- jump to the battery like you would in jumping a car battery. You can also jump directly to the starter (positive lead is at the bottom of the starter). If the motor cranks that way, you know the starter is good.

The motor has to crank pretty fast to energize the ignition, so starter circuit issues are the first to tackle.

Decarbonizing can clog up your carb, by the way -- can loosen up and move stuff around in there. There is obviously no carbon in the carburetor -- just varnish from fuel, and possibly debris from the tank and lines. You can't clean it out unless you dismantle the carb and clean it -- which is to say, you might just be due for a carb cleaning and rebuild (not difficult).

Ill try and address all your suggestions.

When i mentioned the slow crank, that was with the remote device. i got nothing from using it.

. I swapped out my cranking battery for my fresh recharged big trolling motor deep cycle battery. Did no good.

Also, up until the other day my motor has ran GREAT since de carb. Fresh plugs. Ethanol free fuel and good oil is being used.
Carbs have been rebuilt recently. Like i said in OP, she screams without as much as a sneeze once it gets going. 0 problems once its running.

Theres GOT to be something that stands out to someone. The fact ill struggle with it for 2 hours , then it finally randomly starting. Then after that, it starting first crank, every single time without fail during that trip: has to point to something more specific.

I don't see ignition switches or a loose battery cable providing such strange problems.

(By the way yes, i have ensured all connections are clean. Tight. Corrosion free. Battery is in great shape.)

The fact it'll finally also just kick over finally without me doing ANYTHING other than continue to try and turn it over, to me, is Also highly unusual.

 

[oldboat1]

Well, random problems are a bugger. When it acts up, I would want to know for sure if it's putting out a half inch spark at that moment -- need an open air tester and a helper (maybe a cap to shade it while testing). If you establish it's not an ignition issue, I would probably pull off the carb and clean it, with particular attention to the idle passages. And if it's not cranking well with that known good battery, I would pull off the starter and pull it apart -- clean it and check the brushes (replace if called for). While troubleshooting, think I would just disconnect that dead man's switch just in case it's shorting out somewhere.

(edit. keyswitch been a little wonky? might clean and reattach/tighten contacts.)

 

[jakedaawg]

No Title

 

[oldboat1]

think jakedaawg is paying for the kids' braces with all that good equipment -- but think you can do with a simple adjustable spark tester to settle the spark issue. Have to get past the spark test first (at the point the blasted thing is acting up).

 

[F_R]

Right, simple things first. You need to figure out if it truly is an ignition problem or not. Get somebody to crank it from the helm while you observe spark at the motor.....while it is in no-start condition. That is the catch, you have to do it while it is not working.

Slow cranking absolutely will prevent it from having spark. Usually caused by loose or corroded battery cable connections. But you seem to be saying that is not the case.

 

[racerone]

These starters are easily damaged by persistent cranking as the OP appears to be doing.-----Check / inspect that starter !!!!-----Take ohm reading from commutator to the shaft with digital meter.

 

[urbanredneck]

Well, random problems are a bugger. When it acts up, I would want to know for sure if it's putting out a half inch spark at that moment -- need an open air tester and a helper (maybe a cap to shade it while testing). If you establish it's not an ignition issue, I would probably pull off the carb and clean it, with particular attention to the idle passages. And if it's not cranking well with that known good battery, I would pull off the starter and pull it apart -- clean it and check the brushes (replace if called for). While troubleshooting, think I would just disconnect that dead man's switch just in case it's shorting out somewhere.

(edit. keyswitch been a little wonky? might clean and reattach/tighten contacts.)

See, i do think it's related to some partial failure of the kill switch. You say disconnect it. Wouldn't that activate it and kill spark? Or can i just remove/bypass it altogether? (I don't use it any way) .

Also. Tightening contacts. You talking about the Philips screws holding the wires in the control box?

These starters are easily damaged by persistent cranking as the OP appears to be doing.-----Check / inspect that starter !!!!-----Take ohm reading from commutator to the shaft with digital meter.

Definitely not going to rule out the starter, but would it still be suspect if once outboard DOES start, it starts up first crank every single time afterwards?

But. Would love to run your resistance test. Have a diagram or something to locate said commutator/shaft?

 

[racerone]

Just take the starter apart for inspection !---Easy as can be and obvious where to do the ohm test.------This will cost you zero $$ if the starter is good.-----At this time you sure do not know the condition of this starter !

 

[urbanredneck]

Just take the starter apart for inspection !---Easy as can be and obvious where to do the ohm test.------This will cost you zero $$ if the starter is good.-----At this time you sure do not know the condition of this starter !

May be obvious for you man...but I've never done it.

Also didn't say what the proper working resistance reading should be, and what indicates a problem.

Im clueless to the disassembly and workings of the starter.

 

[AlTn]

lots of posting on youtube concerning the testing of starters, most work in a similar fashion...know of a starter/generator shop in your area that's reputable if you don't feel comfortable working on it yourself?

 

[jakedaawg]

Just dig in. It's self explanatory. It's so simple it would be hard to explain. Take the two long bolts out that hold the thing together. Go from there.

 

[F_R]

All the talk about the starter and other issues is fine. Except for one thing. You evidently have not established whether or not you have spark when it is acting up. Until you do, you are guessing.

 

[urbanredneck]

All the talk about the starter and other issues is fine. Except for one thing. You evidently have not established whether or not you have spark when it is acting up. Until you do, you are guessing.

Fair enough. Im nearly sure that im not. I remember running spark test a while back when It wouldn't start and it was absent. I had a multitude of issues then though, Unsure if it was relative to the current concern.
But yes, i agree. I need to be positive that im missing spark, then can go from there.
Was on the reservoir last night. She started 2nd crank when launched, first crank everytime After that. Ran great all day .

And thanks for the heads up on the starter information. Ill browse some videos.

Can someone tell me what the normal values are for resistance/ voltage on the starter?