Flipping a Coin: New Boat vs. Used

[Racklefrack]

A little context first: My wife and I want to buy a boat but we're limited as to the size we can buy because our max towable limit is 3,500#. We can't replace our tow car with anything bigger because we also tow the car behind our RV, which means we have to find a boat that works with the whole package we already have. That's the easy part, actually, and I've already narrowed it down to (first choice) a Four Winns Horizon 180 OB, (second choice) a Glastron GTS 180 or (third choice) a Bayliner 180 Bowrider... all outboards because of the weight issue, of course.

So, HERE'S my real question: Price isn't an issue, weight is, and that forces us down into the "entry level" market because they're really the only option that are light enough for us to tow. Normally I'm fine buying used vehicles, but buying a used entry level outboard boat makes me VERY nervous - I'm concerned the first newbie who bought the boat might not have maintained the motor the way they should have. I'm pretty handy so the actual boat itself isn't much of a concern, but I'm not much of a mechanic so the motor IS a concern.

Of course I'd hire a surveyor before buying anything used, test ride, etc., but what I'm really looking for is YOUR input based on the scuttlebutt within the boating community. Specifically - how common is it that used entry-level boat motors are maintained so poorly that they become a problem for the next owner?

I have a feeling I'm overthinking this issue and that it's not nearly as big a problem as I fear it is... but I have no way of knowing that. You folks might. If it turns out that the problem is as bad or worse than what I think it may be then I'll just buy a new boat instead, but I don't want to pass up on a great deal on a good used boat if my concerns aren't justified.

You guys are tapped into the community, you know what's going on out there. I could use some help.

Thanks!

 

[briangcc]

If price isn't an object, you may want to skip the Fiberglass boats and head onto the Aluminum ones. Much lighter for a given length, can still get the O/B engine, and because they are lighter you can probably go up a few feet in size without issue. Something to consider.


Otherwise, my vote is new. Here's why: I like warranties. I use warranties - saves on repair costs for the first few years of ownership. I too didn't want to inherit someone's issues. Since you're talking new anyways, I'd suggest a Honda 4 stroke outboard - disclaimer: I've owned one. Whisper quiet at idle..you'll hear the water coming out of the telltale they are THAT quiet. Otherwise the newer Evinrudes look nice and you can't go wrong with a Mercury as almost every marina will service them.

 

[wahlejim]

What will be the use of the boat? With so many boats out there, it is tough to really help without knowing what you are using it for.

 

[Racklefrack]

What will be the use of the boat? With so many boats out there, it is tough to really help without knowing what you are using it for.

You're right, sorry... and your question goes to briangcc's first part about fiberglass vs. aluminum.

A bowrider / runabout fits the type of boating we're most interested in. Neither of us will be skiing or tubing unless we have the occasional guests with us... probably 1-2% of the time. Otherwise, we'll spend most of our time running on local lakes and rivers in Arizona... Mead, Havasu, Pleasant, Mohave, Powell, Colorado, etc. Power run it up the river, beach it, hang out, cruise around, and so forth.

So even though we won't be doing many water sports, "speed boating" (as my wife calls it) is what we're looking for. I might do a little fishing here and there, nothing professional, but aluminum hull fishing-style boats don't really do much for us.

An "entry level" boat actually fits what we wanna do without spending a fortune doing it. Don't get me wrong - if I could find a Chris-Craft that weighed less than two tons I'd be all over it, but we'll be just as happy in a nice Four Winns.

As to briangcc's points about a warranty, I concur that it's a good reason to buy a new boat, though we'll likely end up with a Mercury 150 4-stroke (maybe even a pro XS) on the boats we've picked out so far. That;s a good thing... can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting a 5-star Mercury tech

Hope this is enough to help... thanks!!!


p.s. In addition to the boats listed in my original post, we really like the Yamaha SX 195, but at almost 2,400# I don't think I can make it work once we put it on the trailer... it's be a little too close to my 3,500# limit.

 

[muskyfins]

My bad. Too heavy.

 

[QBhoy]

I love this American forum, because I don't get the British equivelant smart arse and bull **** answers to genuine questions and everyone seems genuinely helpful and keen to give heart felt advice....but....to continue to be of use in this forum, I really need to get to grips with the vehicle/boat towing situation across there. I'll try and explain.
In your case, you seem to be limited to a towing weight of 3500lbs (if I have this right) ?
I am familiar with towing capacity Over her in the uk...to which, the equivelant it just over 1500kgs. Or 1.5t.
Over here, given out comparibly modest vehicles...this is a fairly light boat to tow and can easily be done by a BMW 3 series or similar.
Given your generally much larger vehicles, I'm wondering what vehicle you have that is limited to towing such a small load ? Perhaps I am stereo typing, but I thought the average joe with or without a boat, had a vehicle that could easily and at least tow 4000-5000lbs ?
I'm trying to think of a compatible to both comparison...ok, so we may both be familiar with a Toyota rav 4...say a 2007 model ? I used to have one of these. They are probably considered a small tow vehicle Across there, but over here they can legally tow 2000-2200kgs, which I believe is 4500-5000lbs almost.
Please someone educate me....or just make me jealous of the American lifestyle for the umpteenth time...haha.

 

[R055]

I love this American forum, because I don't get the British equivelant smart arse and bull **** answers to genuine questions and everyone seems genuinely helpful and keen to give heart felt advice....but....to continue to be of use in this forum, I really need to get to grips with the vehicle/boat towing situation across there. I'll try and explain.
In your case, you seem to be limited to a towing weight of 3500lbs (if I have this right) ?
I am familiar with towing capacity Over her in the uk...to which, the equivelant it just over 1500kgs. Or 1.5t.
Over here, given out comparibly modest vehicles...this is a fairly light boat to tow and can easily be done by a BMW 3 series or similar.
Given your generally much larger vehicles, I'm wondering what vehicle you have that is limited to towing such a small load ? Perhaps I am stereo typing, but I thought the average joe with or without a boat, had a vehicle that could easily and at least tow 4000-5000lbs ?
I'm trying to think of a compatible to both comparison...ok, so we may both be familiar with a Toyota rav 4...say a 2007 model ? I used to have one of these. They are probably considered a small tow vehicle Across there, but over here they can legally tow 2000-2200kgs, which I believe is 4500-5000lbs almost.
Please someone educate me....or just make me jealous of the American lifestyle for the umpteenth time...haha.

European towing standards are way more lenient than US. My jeep wrangler unlimited is limited to 3500 but same exact one in Europe can do 5000 pounds.

I would think the average towing capacity of all passenger cars in America is ~2500-3000 pounds.

The op can't get a bigger tow vehicle because he tows his tow vehicle with a motorhome.

Also if you're talking about towing a boat with a 3 series as in a 3 series sedan, that's a big no in the states. Seeing any sedan tow anything is really rare in the states.

 

[dingbat]

I would never buy a new boat.

Too many people buy new boats then 2-3 years down the road figure out it's too much work or don't use them enough to justify the cost and dump them for pennies on the dollar.

In my case, I bought a 3 year old boat with hardy any hours on it for 40% of blue book.

The guy had 4 ft itice real bad and sold me the boat for the payoff balance of his loan. Fast forward 10 years and I could sell the boat to arrow for what I paid for it, maybe more if I find the right buyer.

 

[Racklefrack]

QBhoy - I own a 2013 Ford Edge Limited with front wheel drive and a factory-installed tow package rated for 3,500 pounds. It is not the ideal tow vehicle for a boat. but I have confirmed it will do the job. In fact, I spoke to a Ford engineer and we agreed that it's likely the car would be able to safely tow quite a bit more than the rated 3,500 pounds - perhaps as much as much as the 5,000 pounds you mentioned - but the problem would be retrieving a heavier boat out of the water up a steep and/or slippery ramp.

If the boat and trailer I buy ends up weighing 3,600#, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it because I don't need to tow it long distances, but the closer I can get to around 3,000#, the more options I'll have to launching AND retrieving.

And R055 is correct - my tow vehicle issue is that I also have to be able to tow the car behind my RV, hence the front wheel drive which I tow on a dolly.

And, while I'm perfectly happy sharing any information that encourages a genuine conversation, I'm still hopeful someone might have some input on my original question, which is basically "How reliable are used entry-level motors?"

Thanks!

 

[QBhoy]

Thanks RO555. A real education.
Until recently I was even a bit confused by the towing regs across here.
We tend to work on Gross weight and total "train weight"...it's a very complicated affair and even the local police seem unsure.
An example...;
A BMW 335d sedan towing capacity is 1800kgs or 3970lbs here. But that will obviously be inclusive of the trailer too. My boat is a fairly hefty built 18ft bowrider and weighs in at 3000+lbs....there is no way I would want to tow it with a 3 series BMW. But the law says I can, if the trailer is less than 500kgs over and above, which I believe it is.
I have towed this boat with a LR discovery and although fairly comfortable, you know it's there alright. I have also towed it with my current cars.
One is a Range Rover Evoque.....what a nonesense this was. Totally terrible for towing. I think 90% of the budget for the design of this car went on the seats and stereo and they totally forgot that it should fundamentally be a Land Rover at heart !
My other car is a BMW 530dGT. This is much better for towing, given its weight and the fact it's chassis is based on the 7 series. It's perfect for the job in every situation apart from the most crucial....pulling the boat up a greasy slipway and with the rear wheels in the water or on the slippy water line marks !
Anyway...I digress somewhat...I'm still confused about the legality of it all...perhaps your laws are better suited to the reality of it all.
The other factor is gross train weight. This is stamped under the bonnet (hood) of our cars and dictates a whole different towing weight again....made up of the gross weight of the tow vehicle, trailer and item on the trailer ! Confused much ???!!!

 

[Racklefrack]

I would never buy a new boat.

Too many people buy new boats then 2-3 years down the road figure out it's too much work or don't use them enough to justify the cost and dump them for pennies on the dollar.

In my case, I bought a 3 year old boat with hardy any hours on it for 40% of blue book.

The guy had 4 ft itice real bad and sold me the boat for the payoff balance of his loan. Fast forward 10 years and I could sell the boat to arrow for what I paid for it, maybe more if I find the right buyer.

That's an excellent point, and I'm keeping an eye out for any real deals I find on the used market. My concern, of course, is those same new boat owners who buy a boat without any idea how much work they are to maintain and end up not maintaining them at all. A great deal on a boat that is about to breakdown isn't much of a deal... the question then is still "how often does that happen?"

 

[dingbat]

My concern, of course, is those same new boat owners who buy a boat without any idea how much work they are to maintain and end up not maintaining them at all. A great deal on a boat that is about to breakdown isn't much of a deal... the question then is still "how often does that happen?"

unlike an I/O there is very little maintenance required on an outboard.

Change the lower unit oil in the fall, change plugs as required and change the water pump very 2-3 years.
If the compression is good and it runs well, your usually good to go. If the motor has an onboard computer have it read to determine number of hours, RPM values, etc.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Me, i would be looking for a Hydrostream V'king with a 2.5 just to keep up with some of the larger go-fast boats in the area. however some of the areas your planning on taking the boat, the wave action from boat wakes is 4' swells, or more like the channels on Lake Powell

 

[Scott06]

I think the used vs new comes down to your mechanical abilities and desire to work on a boat. Personally I can handle any of the issues so there's no huge risk to me if something goes wrong. Theres are so many boats out there that just don't get used, a couple years old and a hundred hours on them. Usually are used for a couple years then the use tapers off. This is what I look for, but I'm out value shopping. Best deal is if it hardly gets used and the wife hates it.... if you're more interested in a deal used no question, if your pocket is deeper and you don't want to worry go new

 

[fishin98]

Looking at your location and projected uses....Go with a aluminum boat....Top 3 brands...Lund,Alumacraft and Crestliner, also are the most expensive.Tracker boats sold thru Bass Pro Shops come in packages. A fiend of mine just took delivery of a loaded 2018 Pro V Guide 175 Combo with the standard 90hp 4str Mercury..what a sweet package for just under $25K.

 

[ahicks]

An RV'er with toad owner (38' Holiday Rambler) that likes to pull a boat on occasion here as well, only we're snowbirds based in MI and FL.

I'll start with the fact I HATE being forced into dealing with a dealer. From an expense standpoint (original purchase price, depreciation, and ridiculous labor expenses), from a "you want it when?" standpoint, from an incompetence standpoint, and from a standpoint where salesmen are either inexperienced or lying for their own benefit (to the point you can't believe a word they say). I'll do nearly anything to avoid a dealership. This goes for my RV as well as my boats! Call me cynical if you like, but it is what it is.

So it would go without saying "warranty" is an expensive joke to me. What you pay to get it is money I'd much rather keep for my own purposes (yes, retired!).

I'd go aluminum as well, especially for your purposes, because I'm pretty sure I could find a larger boat for a given weight, and the water you're talking about is where size could easily make a difference. I've converted to 4 stroke, and wouldn't go any other route for any reason.

Depending on how far I was towing (local only vs. cross country), I might have a tendency to push a vehicle's tow capacity without a lot of concern, but trust me, I get the steep and/or slippery ramp scenarios! Check them out ahead of time if you know where you'll be spending most of your time. To see and be prepared for what you'll be dealing with ahead of time! This may help prevent being overly conservative with your toad's tow rating.

Best of luck! -Al

 

[wahlejim]

I would go new, personally. In your situation, with that tow vehicle, all of the boats you mentioned are really pushing that weight limit. Don't discount aluminum boats. For example, this one...

http://www.princecraft.com/us/en/products/Deck-Boats/2017/Ventura-Series/Ventura-190.aspx

more room than the others and 800 pounds lighter. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide what you are looking for in a boat and pulling the trigger. It seems you have the pros and cons pretty well nailed down.

New: more expensive, but comes with a warranty. Especially helpful with new boat owners as they can become familiar with the ins and outs of maintenance while under warranty.

Used: Deals can be found on excellent boats, but there is no surefire way to tell if the boat was taken care of.

 

[H20Rat]

it's a very complicated affair and even the local police seem unsure.
... But the law says I can, if the trailer is less than 500kgs over and above, which I believe it is.

So one other difference, you actually have laws regarding weight. I don't know of a single state that has any overweight law for a non-commercial driver, at least in regards to vehicle specs. My license D allows me to drive a vehicle up to 26,000 lbs GVWR, and no trailer over 10,000 GVW. Nothing in the state legal code addresses passenger vehicle weight limits whatsoever. About the only thing coming close to a weight law is just when trailer brakes are required, which varies per state.

I know people often bring up the mistaken belief that you will instantly be sued if you are in an accident and overweight, but from many years in the auto insurance industry, I can say that not once was that a deciding factor, and we had LOTS of claimants who were grossly overweight. (insurance company i worked for insured mainly farmers, who generally will get the job done no matter what, and that might mean 15,000 lbs of round bails behind a 1/2 ton truck.)


anyway, squirrel!

Op, what was your vehicle size limit that you can tow behind the motor home? What is your current tow vehicle? Have you thought about changing out tow vehicles to maybe open up your boat options? There are some relatively lightweight midsized SUV's that are safely rated at 5000# or more, Honda Pilot, Jeep Grand Cherokee, and Kia Sorrento come to mind.

The Honda Pilot has a curb weight of 4000# or a little more depending on options, which isn't much more than a small or midsized car. The Kia is lighter yet, 3700# to 4100# depending on equip.

 

[jkust]

It is a bummer that you are relegated to such entry level boats but everyone has some restriction or another for what they can own. Mine happens to be winter storage garage size.
Anyway, my take is that sure low end boats tend to be the boat that entry level boaters learn to not become entry level boaters. Make the mistakes on the cheapo boat and then move on though some are occasional boaters who just don't see the need for much more and those boats stay in a garage getting used rarely. I'd be interested in one of those two year old models in your list that got bought and just sat. It is extremely common in my region because everybody has a boat.
As for the entry level situation, my neighbor at my lake home just bought a 2017 Glastron 225 which is about as entry level as you can get for that size which cost right about $60k with Trailer as he has it optioned. It is his first ever boat and it will beat to heck within a few years and that is on his own lake not a series of unfamiliar lakes. He scratched the hull I think within the first hour of use and continues to do so and routinely hits bottom, beats up the interior, etc. That's the boat I'd want to avoid in the used market.

 

[Racklefrack]

unlike an I/O there is very little maintenance required on an outboard.

Change the lower unit oil in the fall, change plugs as required and change the water pump very 2-3 years.
If the compression is good and it runs well, your usually good to go. If the motor has an onboard computer have it read to determine number of hours, RPM values, etc.

Thanks dingbat! I'm going to take this to mean that outboards are so easy to maintain that it shouldn't be much of an issue