Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

[lawyertob]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Originally posted by 73Baja:<br /> ... I plan on stuffing all the open areas in my floor with water noodles. .... I know it sounds bad, but it's cheap and easy.

73Baja,<br /><br />Sounds interesting, I wonder what those things are made out of? I know that some of them will soak up water if left in a pool, so you might want to test them first. Also, most of the ones I have seen are not UV resistant, but that shouldn't be a problem below decks.<br /><br />Just my $0.02 worth,<br />Joe

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

The two part foam that im using is made by Clear Cote Systems and they say it is impervious to oil, fuel, poly and epoxy resins. Water Noodles start to disintegrate after just a few days in the sun, and pool water. ever tried to hold gas in styrofoam cup? Heck they even have warning labels "NOT TO BE USED AS A PERSONAL FLOATATION DEVICE". Come on guys, 20.00 per 3 cubic feet of foam is pretty darn cheap insurance IMHO. Don't get me wrong, I like to save as many $$$ as I can, but not when it comes to safety.

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Wait!! I just had a thought. I could take they money I saved on the foam and put it toward the 4000.00 spinner wheels and tires for my 74 Pinto that doesnt run. Or maybe a waterproof 5000 watt stereo system,<br />so our brothers and sisters in Iraq can here Toby Kieth cranking from my boat after it sinks to the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico. (Also works for drowning out the gear whine and rod clanking noises coming from my motor and outdrive, possibly help them find my and my families bodies should disaster strike) <br />J/K I DO NOT OWN A PINTO!!!!

 

[lawyertob]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Originally posted by jimmythekid:<br /> Don't get me wrong, I like to save as many $$$ as I can, but not when it comes to safety.

jimmythekid,<br /><br />You are preaching to the chior...I'm the guy who is using the 4 pound foam instead of 2 pound even though it cost twice as much, remember? <br /><br />Another penny worth,<br />Joe

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

i was just responding to what 73baja said about water noodles thats all, I suppose maybe he ws just being sarcastic.

 

[lawyertob]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Originally posted by jimmythekid:<br /> i was just responding to what 73baja said about water noodles thats all, I suppose maybe he ws just being sarcastic.

Jimmythekid,<br /><br />I don't know...I read things on here all the time and think that people MUST be joking...and oftentimes they aren't. <br /><br />Baja may think that any flotation is better than no flotation. Which might be true unless your flotation turns into a huge heavy water-soaked mass. We both brought up that problem and hopefully he will listen. Thanks for the input, BTW. <br /><br />Anyway, you are right when you say that safety is not the place to skimp. Heck, this whole thread was designed to show people that at least some of the methods they think are "saving" them money on foam, are not only NOT saving money, but are also a bad idea for other reasons.<br /><br />This is not to say that innovation is not possible. I myself considered mixing ping pong balls into my foam. Luckily, I am good at math and was able to figure out just how expensive that idea would have been compared to just using foam.<br /><br />Another $0.02 worth,<br />Joe

 

[lawyertob]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

73Baja,<br /><br />I was wondering what they were made of...now I can look them up. You really might want to do a test before you put them in though, I have personally seen those things get waterlogged. Maybe it is only some brands that are made from a different material, I'm not sure. As for the wheels and stereo....well, all I can say is that Jimmy must have a weird sense of humor. <br /><br />Oh, as for testing them, a method I have heard would be to weigh one, then submerge it in a bucket of water for several days. Pull it out and wipe it off, then weigh it again. If it gained weight, then it is soaking up water.<br /><br />The ones I saw that had soaked up water were at the YMCA, they were in the water almost constantly and they weighed probably 5 to 10 pounds each. Intermittent wetting probably wouldn't be a problem, but any water sitting in a bilge might stay until it is soaked up or evaporates.<br /><br />Just my $0.02 worth,<br />Joe

 

[Marc J.]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

As ridiculous as is sounded, the water noodle idea has some merits. I did some searches on them. They are made of closed cell polyethylene foam. It is used in the aerospace, marine, construction, and appliance industries. It is highly stable at extreme temps, chemical and gasoline resistant, and highly resistant to water absorbtion. It is sprayed between the inner and outer hulls by some boat manufacturers, used in bouys, and most life jackets. You can even purchase sheets of the stuff intended to be used in boat building. I've never left one in a pool all summer, and I've never purchased wheels or a stereo for a car that didn't run. Thank you. BTW Jimmy, that's a good price on two-part foam.

 

[Marc J.]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Thanks Joe. I'm sure you guys just have the safety of my family in mind. I'll put one to the bucket test. I could always sell them at a profit and invest in the two-part foam. Earlier posts by Boomyall and others have me concerned about drainage, trapped moisture, and voids in the foam. I hope my floor project turns out as well as the pics I have seen posted here.

 

[lawyertob]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

73Baja,<br /><br />Let me know how it turns out. I am thinking of using some of the same material in some above the water line locations that shouldn't get wet. Basically places where I can glue the material to the "ceiling"...or places I would have to build a form to hold the foam until it hardened. I also have a couple of areas under the splash well that aren't really useful for storage, but I need to be able to remove flotation in them if I need to work on cleats, lights, thru-hull bilge outlet, etc. I am trying to maximize flotation above decks, because I am adding several cubic feet below decks...basically, in the event of being swamped, I do not want the boat to turn turtle.<br /><br />Another $0.02 worth,<br />Joe

 

[Winger Ed.]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Originally posted by Joe Glastron T186:<br /> 73Baja,<br /><br />Let me know how it turns out.

////////<br /><br /><br />Ohhh, no you don't...... <br /><br />You ain't getting away for 6 months or so this time.<br /><br />Darn Sub-mariner..... <br /><br />you'll stick around and ride out the heat you got fired up if I have to call all my crazy buds and hold you by the 'stacking swivel'.. <br /><br /><br />har, har, har,,,,,,

 

[12Footer]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Good werk, Joe! I am truely impressed by the time,effort ,and brain power you put into this. It will surely save a lot of experimentation on our part durring a rebuild project.<br /><br />But I still have some remote areas under deck, that I need to get to, so I can rip that garbage out of them! It must be the 2lb 2-part foam you referenced, because every handful I have removed has been saturated with vinegar-smelling water. I need to replace 90% of all wood inside the boat, (thankfully, no transom rot), and I do not want any more sponges underneath it to re-rot it.

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

i do have a weird sense of humor and I hope noone has taken any offense. By the way I DID own a Pinto when I was in High School I put a 302 in it. With a kraco radio and a pyramid eq with 6x9 jensens duct taped in the rear window and slicks for tires they were homemade slicks (road huggers burned off to the cords were showing) anyway as long as we are talking about alternative foam, how about styrofoam bb's found in bean bag chairs? Anybody know how many lbs a cubic foot of that will support? By the way, I met a guy at a home I was working on yesterday and he was rebuilding his boat as well, and he said that foam is only needed if your boat sinks. I looked at him and said "what if it really does sink?" he couldn't answer me. i have enough foam for my 23 fot sea sleigh im mean sea ray I was just wonderin. Last but not least, I want to personally thank all you veterans for keeping us all free and safe. THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!!!!!!!

 

[BillP]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

JoeG,<br />I'm going to comment on your original post on the idea of saving money by using bottles. The reason for using sealed containers for floatation is really about staying away from waterlogged foam....higher cost is just a result of doing it. <br /><br />Also, contrary to some belief, 99% of all poured foam will absorb water, some just takes longer to do it. Due to the cells it can get saturated by condensation from the top and the h2o gets trapped...and will not drain. Even the cheap styrofoam coolers will get saturated after a few weeks of holding water. I once pulled moist foam out of a boat that sat out of the weather under a shed for almost 10 yrs with the drain plug out and bow tilted up. It also had a sunbrella cover over it while in the shed. <br /><br />I like the idea (read about it here on Iboats) of using block foam and sealing the exterior of each block with epoxy resin to keep water out.

 

[Marc J.]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

I believe styrofoam could be used as long as it is encapsulated. As it has been pointed out earlier, it will dissolve in gasoline. I discovered that in some areas they make a real effort to keep styrofoam out of the landfills. They are paying people to collect it for the purpose of recycling/reusing it. Maybe a few glad bags filled with packing peanuts would be better than nothing. <br />I am starting to believe that no foam is 100% waterproof. I kept finding the term "highly water resistant" to describe various types of foam.

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

I believe that's the consensus. No foam is water-proof. The right kind of foam, though, is going to provide you with years of trouble-free safety flotation. I do really like the idea of coating foam in epoxy. I'm considering that, and I'm guessing that it shouldn't even be that expensive. Question, at this point. If you wanted to pour foam between the stringers, yet still be able to remove it for epoxy coating, what would you cover the floor area with prior to pouring the foam?

 

[12Footer]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Yes, but have you ever put resin on styrofoam? Eww...Yukky.

 

[lawyertob]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Originally posted by jimmythekid:<br /> Anybody know how many lbs a cubic foot of that will support?

Jimmy,<br /><br />Calculating flotation is easy, just subtract the weight of a cubic foot of a material from the weight of a cubic foot of water. A cubic foot of water is about 62.5 pounds. So, in the case of 2 pound foam, which weighs 2 pounds per cubic foot, the flotation is 62.5 - 2 = 60.5 pounds of flotation. This works as long as the material displaces the water instead of absorbing it.<br /><br />Another $0.02 worth,<br />Joe

 

[lawyertob]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Originally posted by BillP:<br /> JoeG,<br />I'm going to comment on your original post on the idea of saving money by using bottles. The reason for using sealed containers for floatation is really about staying away from waterlogged foam....Also, contrary to some belief, 99% of all poured foam will absorb water, some just takes longer to do it. . . . . I like the idea (read about it here on Iboats) of using block foam and sealing the exterior of each block with epoxy resin to keep water out.

BillP,<br /><br /> Well, from reading old posts, I can see that some people use the bottles to stretch their foam, or make it go further.<br /><br /> I know that the plastic they make soda bottles out of is tough, but the lids are not so tough. I understand that a collision hard enough to breach a bottle embedded in foam, is probably not survivable by the boat anyway.<br /><br /> That being said, if a bottle does crack or the cap leaks, then theoretically, the bottle could completely fill with water. I know that is worst case, but it is possible. Of course, I guess you would have to have quite a few of them leak and fill for it to be a big problem.<br /><br />Oh well, I am going to use 4 pound foam without bottles anyway. <br /><br />Just my $0.02 worth,<br />Joe

 

[lawyertob]

Re: Saving money on foam: bottles and other bad ideas.

Originally posted by swimmin' for shore:<br /> If you wanted to pour foam between the stringers, yet still be able to remove it for epoxy coating, what would you cover the floor area with prior to pouring the foam?

Swimmin,<br /><br />Well, this is a wild guess, but I am thinking that aluminum foil might work. It would be easy to get it to form to the hull and stringers. I am not sure how well resin sticks to it though. In any case, if you did it that way you could claim that your foam was metal encased and fiberglass encapsulated. Sounds cool anyway. <br /><br />Just my $0.02 worth,<br />Joe