1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

[John_S]

This is continuation of a long discussion in this thread: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=219523

Quote:
Originally Posted by imported_John_S
"Now, unless you've done hands on lifter adjustments on many Chevy small blocks, you don't know the advantage of more power (or torque), and faster response to the throttle, that you get with your lifters set at 1/4 to 1/2 turn lash, as opposed to 1, to 1 1/2 turns, then you wouldn't understand,,, it don't matter if it's a boat, or a car, it's still an increase in power."

1) I have stated 1 turn, and 1 turn only.
2) Please provide references to ANY articles that support your faster throttle response claims. (hyd lifters only, thankyou)

Nothing on the net that I found indicated that this is the case. If you can't find supporting articles, at least review how they work and explain how it possibly could provide additional throttle response, or lowend torque. If you can't explain it, you don't understand it.

Posted by Mikdee:
I'm not going to search the internet, or some book to prove myself to you, apparently you've never physically done this yourself, or you'd see, and know what I mean. Do you get all your info from the internet, or a book? do you follow every rule to the letter of the law? sometimes things work better when you bend the rules. As I said unless you've done this yourself on a regular basis you don't understand, if you haven't seen for yourself the difference, I can't explain it to you, I don't know how or why it works, it just does, and I doubt you're going to find the answer on the internet, or in a book! No, I refuse to be put on the spot just to please you, So, you can either take my word for it, or not, or try it for yourself and see.

Just remember the tighter you make the valve adjustment, the more chance you may "stuff" the valves (leave them hanging open away from their seats, or on their seats for too long a time, overheating them) neither of these are good!
__________________
Wrenching 44yrs, mostly small block Chevy's
Boats I presently own:
1989- 19' Bayliner Capri Ski Boat, with a 125hp Force motor.
1996- Yamaha Waveventure 1100 3str. jetski

 

[John_S]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Mikdee,

While I was looking for the info on the windage tray, in Dennis Moore's book on SBC Marine Peformance, I decided to look-up what he says about the subject. I should have gone to the "bible" prior to this. Well, I scanned and posted the page for you to read: http://www.canadalake.org/files/file0040a.jpg Read the section Hyd lifter preload. Of particular interest is the last sentence.

While you may try to derate me by using books and info available, along with the experience I have, it doesn't elevate your position. After reading and you want to have some itelligent discussion, I am willing. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, it provides NO increase in performance in a standard marine engine.

 

[MikDee]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Mikdee,

While I was looking for the info on the windage tray, in Dennis Moore's book on SBC Marine Peformance, I decided to look-up what he says about the subject. I should have gone to the "bible" prior to this. Well, I scanned and posted the page for you to read: http://www.canadalake.org/files/file0040a.jpg Read the section Hyd lifter preload. Of particular interest is the last sentence.

While you may try to derate me by using books and info available, along with the experience I have, it doesn't elevate your position. After reading and you want to have some itelligent discussion, I am willing. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, it provides NO increase in performance in a standard marine engine.

John, I am not trying to derate you, or elevate my position, it really don't matter much to me, anyway,,, Anyone can say anything, or print anything in a book, my point is that I have adjusted hyd. lifters on a small block Chevy many times, apparently you haven't, or this discussion would be moot. So, I'll explain how it works, with the engine warmed up and running (not static adjustment), and the lifters loose, you tighten down the rocker arm slowly, a little at a time, till the clicking stops, that is zero lash, once they're all done to this setting, if the motor was untouched before this was done, you'll notice a high idle speed, this is actually the best setting, But, if you ran the engine this way, the lifters would loosen up in a short time, and you'd be readjusting them soon afterward, especially if you ran it hard, Anyway, to get back on track if you then tighten down the lifters 1 turn down from zero lash, you'll notice the engine will appear to get a bit sluggish, & idle down quite a bit,,, maybe even stall unless you raise it with the idle speed screw. However, if you then back off the rocker arms to zero lash again, the engine will pick up speed, and be more responsive to the throttle, then when you finally set them at 1/4 to 1/2 turn down, it will also still have a somewhat higher idle (you would probably have to readjust the idle speed screw again now) and a more responsive engine, with more low end torque. I don't know if it's measurable, but "seat of the pants" you'll know, this is what I've found, if you don't believe me try it yourself,,, or not? Another thing, it's a fact that Mopar, and other engines that don't have individual adjustable rockers, but all rockers on one shaft each side of the motor, used to use different size shims, under the rocker arm shaft bases to achieve this effect! Did you know this? Or do you think I'm blowing smoke here?! Go check that out, if you can find it in a book, or on the internet, but I doubt it,,, I know because I grew up at the time, and lived through it. You, Supernova, and a few others on this forum are very knowledgable, but you all don't know everything, about everything, neither do I, but that's why we're here, to help, offer our opinion, our advice, and learn.

 

[John_S]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Mikdee,

"Anyone can say anything, or print anything in a book"

Yes, but do you think thats what Dennis did? He is very well respected in the marine community. He is not a "fly by night" book writer.

Yes, I have done the dynamic adjustment, and if you followed my posts on this, I actually thought the GM spec less than 1 turn. My original assumption was the 1 turn was "marine" specific.

I think what you are hearing, is a different sound from the engine as the lifter re-adjusts itself to the new position. If you are only adjusting to 1/4 turn its not a problem. Going to 1 turn, needs to be done in multiple steps.

I have owned a couple of mopars and knew they had the rocker arms are on the shaft. But, I have never tore one down or rebuilt them, so not experienced with the internals.

As far as me testing it, not likely. Not that I am not curious enough, its just too much of a pain and mess to do test runs in a boat. Besides, it takes a rather significant change to detect it in the boat. I might change out my rocker arms this spring, but so far, my brain is telling me its a waste of money, vs my urge to tinker and change. We'll see which wins.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

while its true,especially with a higher lift cam ,that playing with the lifter preload may give another 4 or 5 HP at WOT its not reccomended for constant full throttle loads.
if you need it then change the rocker arm ratio.
the 1 turn past 0 lash simply sets the lifter plunger at the correct preload.
on class racing motors I set the preload with a dial indicator and forget about "turns" before installing the intake.
I never ever set the lifters running. way to nasty and messy.
its just to easy to do it static and go.
trust me if horsepower was that simple the engine would come from the factory at 1/4 turn.

 

[John_S]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Rodbolt,
thanks for your additional input.

Mikdee,
Given I do change the rocker arms, I probably would go with the dynamic method, since the intake would still be installed. It would be a simple test to record engine rpms on the shop tach at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and 1 turn. Now if it gets too messy, with clips on, I'll just set it and forget it.

Even if there is a perceived throttle response increase on a car, I don't think you could ever detect it with a boat throttle lever. If there was a "real" recordable (dyno) torque increase, you "might" be able to detect it.

 

[MikDee]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Mikdee,

"Anyone can say anything, or print anything in a book"

Yes, but do you think thats what Dennis did? He is very well respected in the marine community. He is not a "fly by night" book writer.

Yes, I have done the dynamic adjustment, and if you followed my posts on this, I actually thought the GM spec less than 1 turn. My original assumption was the 1 turn was "marine" specific.

I think what you are hearing, is a different sound from the engine as the lifter re-adjusts itself to the new position. If you are only adjusting to 1/4 turn its not a problem. Going to 1 turn, needs to be done in multiple steps.

I have owned a couple of mopars and knew they had the rocker arms are on the shaft. But, I have never tore one down or rebuilt them, so not experienced with the internals.

As far as me testing it, not likely. Not that I am not curious enough, its just too much of a pain and mess to do test runs in a boat. Besides, it takes a rather significant change to detect it in the boat. I might change out my rocker arms this spring, but so far, my brain is telling me its a waste of money, vs my urge to tinker and change. We'll see which wins.

Well Dennis stated himself 1/2 to 1 turn down in the last sentence, so he is saying the same thing I said.

The GM spec has been 1 turn down since forever, Mercruiser, & probably OMC, & Volvo, would have to say the same thing to conform, that's a given.

I am not hearing anything? (don't know what you mean?) unless your talking about the faster idle with the valves looser, and I'm well aware this has to be done slowly, in steps, to let the engine even out, I'm the one who mentioned it?

Some Mopars, and other make engines, had the rockers on a shaft, with no adjustment screws on them, guys were loosening up the shaft base, & shimming them up individually to get some valve adjustment.

Have you done a basic tune up on your vehicles? Did you feel a difference, probably Yes,,, Well how signifcant was that? Maybe you just replaced plugs, and wires that weren't that badly worn, But, it did make a difference, Right? every little thing (improvement) makes a difference, as will the lifter adjustment.

Adjusting a solid lifter cam really shows what I'm talking about, assuming it's getting noisy from your getting on it a lot after a few weeks, there's too much clearance in the lifters, you slowly start to adjust them, and the engine starts to idle down, sometimes you're not done adjusting, but you have to stop, & raise the idle to continue, then you go on adjusting, and you find, you may have to raise the idle again, to finish the adjustment. When you're all done, the engine appears calm, and quiet, and not the responsive strong sounding engine you started with. In essence what was happening before this, you were losing lift, & duration on your cam with them being loose, hence leaving you with more low end torque, and a quicker response, almost like you went back to a near stock cam, But you also lost horsepower, and top end probably, because the cam was not delivering it's full effect to the engine. This is an exaggerated example of how it works. I hope this helps you understand it better now.

 

[John_S]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Comparing a gap based solid lifter to a zero lash based hyd lifter makes no sense. Gap on a solid lifter does not equate to seating of the hyd valve lash. The hyd lifter just keeps the play out of the system, be it expansion of metals from heat or retraction from wear. It doesn't change the position/height of the valve, until you get out of the range that is preset from the lash adj. If I do the rocker switch, I will do the rpm test, and report the findings, one way or another. Or maybe we can convince Myth Busters to do it!

 

[SuperNova]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Adjusting a solid lifter cam really shows what I'm talking about, assuming it's getting noisy from your getting on it a lot after a few weeks, there's too much clearance in the lifters, you slowly start to adjust them, and the engine starts to idle down, sometimes you're not done adjusting, but you have to stop, & raise the idle to continue, then you go on adjusting, and you find, you may have to raise the idle again, to finish the adjustment. When you're all done, the engine appears calm, and quiet, and not the responsive strong sounding engine you started with. In essence what was happening before this, you were losing lift, & duration on your cam with them being loose, hence leaving you with more low end torque, and a quicker response, almost like you went back to a near stock cam, But you also lost horsepower, and top end probably, because the cam was not delivering it's full effect to the engine. This is an exaggerated example of how it works. I hope this helps you understand it better now.

Baloney, IMO. These are two completely different styles of lifter and cam and making any comparison between the two when it comes to adjusting the rockers is ludicrous. Even the attempt belies your ignorance on the subject. On a solid lift cam you are setting LASH also known as CLEARANCE and I agree that changing lash on a solid lifter cam will change idle characteristics and power and response; however, on a hydraulic lifter you are setting PRELOAD and once you have gone past ZERO LASH and started into the PRELOAD realm, it doesn't change anything if you have .020" PRELOAD or .100" PRELOAD except you may have to adjust the valve more regularly than someone who set it at .060" PRELOAD.

And yes, when I was young and too ignorant to know any better, I listened to my elders who said "adjust it by ear while it's running--it's better and easier" So I have done it that way quite a few times---until I got smart enough and learned enough to know there is a better and more correct way that lasted longer and ws easier to do.

 

[whywhyzed]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

this thread is further evidence that my compression tester method is the only reliable way to set rockers

 

[MikDee]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Comparing a gap based solid lifter to a zero lash based hyd lifter makes no sense. Gap on a solid lifter does not equate to seating of the hyd valve lash.

Yes it does make sense, a hydraulic lifter becomes just like a solid lifter once it fills with oil, it may have some cushion to it, but If you loosen the rockers, or tighten them, it is going to change lift, & duration, just like a solid lifter would.

The hyd lifter just keeps the play out of the system, be it expansion of metals from heat or retraction from wear. It doesn't change the position/height of the valve, until you get out of the range that is preset from the lash adj.

I disagree, Ok, let me put it simply, once you are at zero lash, and you begin to tighten the rockers, in lets say, 1/4 turn increments, what do you feel? Resistance! and what do you hear? The engine stumbling! What do you think is happening? you are moving the valve down with each increment, changing the lift, & duration! That's why when you get all done, the idle speed is much slower then when you started, Go Figure!

And, if you tighten the loose rockers down to specs on a solid lifter cam, what do you think is happening? Exactly The Same Thing!

If I do the rocker switch, I will do the rpm test, and report the findings, one way or another. Or maybe we can convince Myth Busters to do it!

IMO zero lash is the best setting, but this is not practical because, in a short time, they'll be one or more coming loose, and clickiing, so 1/4 to 1/2 a turn is the least invasive setting, depending on the shape of your engine, some will keep the 1/4 turn down setting, and never make noise again, some will need the 1/2 turn down setting to stay quiet.

I just need to establish my credibilty, I am not a newby, or rookie, when it comes to fixing, and modding, all types of vehicles, here take a look:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v240/MikDee/My Classic Cars/

 

[MikDee]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

this thread is further evidence that my compression tester method is the only reliable way to set rockers

This sounds interesting, and innovative, tell me more?

 

[John_S]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Yes it does make sense, a hydraulic lifter becomes just like a solid lifter once it fills with oil, it may have some cushion to it, but If you loosen the rockers, or tighten them, it is going to change lift, & duration, just like a solid lifter would.

No, this is wrong. It acts like a solid lifter as it comes up in the bore, because there is noplace for the oil to bleed off, and oil does not compress. Your statement reflects how I thought they worked, until I went back and reviwed how they truely work. If you do that, I think you will see what I am saying.

I disagree, Ok, let me put it simply, once you are at zero lash, and you begin to tighten the rockers, in lets say, 1/4 turn increments, what do you feel? Resistance! and what do you hear? The engine stumbling! What do you think is happening? you are moving the valve down with each increment, changing the lift, & duration! That's why when you get all done, the idle speed is much slower then when you started, Go Figure!

What you are feeling is the pressure to push the oil out of the lifter. It needs to be off the lobe to equalize. Please take a few minutes to review a good text on this.

 

[whywhyzed]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

This sounds interesting, and innovative, tell me more?

Crank the engine - watch the compression gauge- tighten rocker until compression drops(too tight)- loosen until it clicks(too loose) - split the difference

That way you know you're smack dab in the middle of the adjustment range

 

[MikDee]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

No, this is wrong. It acts like a solid lifter as it comes up in the bore, because there is noplace for the oil to bleed off, and oil does not compress.

You're contradicting yourself? Isn't this exactly what I just said?! My Quote: " Yes it does make sense, a hydraulic lifter becomes just like a solid lifter once it fills with oil, it may have some cushion to it, but If you loosen the rockers, or tighten them, it is going to change lift, & duration, just like a solid lifter would." let me add, but without the clatter of solids.

Your statement reflects how I thought they worked, until I went back and reviwed how they truely work. If you do that, I think you will see what I am saying.

So what does this mean, you're talking in riddles?, where is this info so I can read it, and try to understand it for myself

What you are feeling is the pressure to push the oil out of the lifter. It needs to be off the lobe to equalize. Please take a few minutes to review a good text on this.

Again I disagree, the motor runs differently, definitely slower, after it recovers from each incremental setting change, proving it is affecting lift, & duration, not just lifter preload!

 

[SuperNova]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Again I disagree, the motor runs differently, definitely slower, after it recovers from each incremental setting change, proving it is affecting lift, & duration, not just lifter preload!

It doesn't prove anything because you are judging it by ear and feel instead of measuring against a known quantity. You're probably binding the rockers against the pedestal. If you adjust the rockers while the engine is running, oil pressure will screw up your adjustments every time. Hydraulic lifters were meant to be adjusted with the engine not running to get an accurate setting. THAT is why every book you will ever read will tell you to adjust them statically.

Let me just re-iterate here that I am a professional technician. ASE Master, Volvo Master, Dodge Chrysler & Jeep Master, Cummins Master. In my spare time I build High performance street, 4x4 and Marine small and big block chevies. I have done solid cams, hydraulic cams, hydraulic roller cams (both factory roller blocks and retro-fits) as well as solid roller cams. I have built stroker motors of every conceiveable bore/stroke configuration as well as Nitrous motors and supercharged alcohol motors for racing. Every motor gets adjusted on the bench cold, the solid cams get gone over hot for final adjustment, the hydraulics you never have to touch again---EVER.

Everything you've said so far just makes me shake my head and think " He can't really believe this garbage, can he?"

 

[MikDee]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

It doesn't prove anything because you are judging it by ear and feel instead of measuring against a known quantity. You're probably binding the rockers against the pedestal. If you adjust the rockers while the engine is running, oil pressure will screw up your adjustments every time. Hydraulic lifters were meant to be adjusted with the engine not running to get an accurate setting. THAT is why every book you will ever read will tell you to adjust them statically.

So, what your saying is when you start a motor with loose rockers, and it's (clicking, clacking) and you gradually tighten them down incrementally, till they are quiet, that is not zero lash? Come on! That doesn't make sense!, and then continue to tighten them down the same way, to 1/2, or 1 turn, I am binding the rocker against the pedestal? that doesn't make sense either! I don't think so, I disagree, but so be it!

Let me just re-iterate here that I am a professional technician. ASE Master, Volvo Master, Dodge Chrysler & Jeep Master, Cummins Master. In my spare time I build High performance street, 4x4 and Marine small and big block chevies. I have done solid cams, hydraulic cams, hydraulic roller cams (both factory roller blocks and retro-fits) as well as solid roller cams. I have built stroker motors of every conceiveable bore/stroke configuration as well as Nitrous motors and supercharged alcohol motors for racing. Every motor gets adjusted on the bench cold, the solid cams get gone over hot for final adjustment, the hydraulics you never have to touch again---EVER.

Alrighty then, You're Way Overqualified,,,lol,,,
But, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, I'm sticking to mine.

Everything you've said so far just makes me shake my head and think " He can't really believe this garbage, can he?"

Actually I do, but don't consider it garbage and I am done with this discussion, over this with you SN, Have a nice day!

 

[SuperNova]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

So, what your saying is when you start a motor with loose rockers, and it's (clicking, clacking) and you gradually tighten them down incrementally, till they are quiet, that is not zero lash?

If they are all clacking and clattering away then 1. Don't think you are doing any damage-right? WRONG the lifter is not rotating on the cam like it is supposed to do under load. This is the leading cause of premature wear of lifters and cams. 2.-How do you "hear" the one rocker you are adjusting with all that noise going on. 3. Regardless of all else, it is still an improper way of doing it, obviously, because all the manuals written by SBC experts and engineers who DESIGNED the motor tell you to do it a different way. To even argue the point is foolish. Now I am done.

 

[MikDee]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

So, what your saying is when you start a motor with loose rockers, and it's (clicking, clacking) and you gradually tighten them down incrementally, till they are quiet, that is not zero lash?

If they are all clacking and clattering away then 1. Don't think you are doing any damage-right? WRONG the lifter is not rotating on the cam like it is supposed to do under load. This is the leading cause of premature wear of lifters and cams. 2.-How do you "hear" the one rocker you are adjusting with all that noise going on. 3. Regardless of all else, it is still an improper way of doing it, obviously, because all the manuals written by SBC experts and engineers who DESIGNED the motor tell you to do it a different way. To even argue the point is foolish. Now I am done.

1) Ok, I know that also, but usually I'll adjust them statically by the methods mentioned previously, to zero lash, then once the engine is running, & warmed up, and I know the lifters are now full of oil,

2) I loosen them one at a time a little just to hear it, then tighten it down gradually in increments, to 1/2 a turn down from zero lash.

3) I never heard that it was a rule by "the experts" to only do it statically? I'll have to research this point further.

Thanks for your opinion, and Peace! SN

 

[SuperNova]

Re: 1/4 vs 1 turn on hyd valve adj = performance?

Just so we are clear mikdee, I am not getting upset or p-o'd. This is actually a fun little discussion, I hope you're not getting mad either. I truly do respect the guys who were around during the heyday of the factory muscle cars, though I suspect we might be having a bit of a comeback with some of the factory offerings nowadays as well.


Anyway, you older gents have a way of getting things done from experience without special equipment that some of the younger folk might not even think of. And you can relate some cool car history from direct experience, too.

Sometimes sarcasm and tone don't come across the typewritten word very well and intent can get misinterpreted. But on some of this I am just bustin' stones.
--
Stan