1969 110 (9.8) stopping and difficult to start again

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

My 78 year old father has an old Norwegian built wooden boat and enjoys to go to boat meets. He thought it would be a good idea to have a period engine on it, and that has bitten me in the butt rather hard because I said I'd help him find one. They are very hard to find in Norway, but I found one for him one and a half year ago, and it was supposed to be very good, overhauled by the guy that the then owner had bought it from. We bought it in the fall, after the boat was on land, so we couldn't test it. I also found a kit for converting it to control box use and mounted a control box in the boat. Next spring we tested it and it ran, but very badly. It wouldn't idle at all. After a short while it got worse, and after a trip to a shop where my father lives that was expensive, but not very helpful, my father used another engine the rest of the season. The local shop said that it had a leak at the bottom of the crank case which should be the problem.

I brought the motor home with me (we live around two hours from my father). A neighbour's son is a boat mechanic, and he took pity on it. So earlier this spring the motor was checked more thoroughly. Turned out that it had been overhauled, but wrongly. He tore down the powerhead and found that there leak in the bottom of the crank case was because the hobby mechanic that had done the "overhaul" hadn't used sealant, and he found that the crank and pistons were damaged (crank bearings, and burnt holes in the pistons). Also there were signes that it had been under water. I found a new crank with pistons on eBay for it. He got that in, and thought that it should be the ticket.It still wouldn't go right. The engine stopped after a short while and was very difficult to start again. Also he had to squeeze the bladder when it stopped, so it didn't pull gas correctly. He found that there was a leak in the fuel pump gasket, so he overhauled the fuel pump, which had a damaged membrane and gasket. Of course the brass fittings on the small hose from the fuel pump to the carb disintegrated when he was putting it together again, so that was changed too. And it still won't go right. It now pulls gas as it should, the bladder stays hard, so it seems likely that there is an ignition problem. He has tried and spent far too much time on the thing already, but all that money in parts and his time shouldn't really go to waste.

So the problem still is that it does start, but it stops after a short while, and then it's very hard to start again. Also it won't idle. So you can say that it does run, but very badly. Can somebody please give me a few tips I can take to the mechanic? He works at a Mercury dealer, but they have no manuals for motors that old, and he asked me if I could find out the measuring values for the ignition and prosedures to get it adjusted correctly. I know it's a 1969 from the serial number, and means a Phelon type ignition, not the Phase Maker, which I have read is very infamous! I found a kind of a manual online, but it covers a lot of motor types in one go, so I don't know how accurate it is.

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

Oh, I should mention that he has opened the carb twice and not found anything wrong with it.

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

Sorry, it's a 1968, not 1969! But it should be Phelon. Serial number 2472117.

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

And to keep up the thread (it seems I can't edit after a while), it's hard to start at all too, I forgot to mention that. So not just after it has stopped. I will speak more to the mechanic later today, and maybe take a trip to where he works to see for myself exactly what the symptoms are.

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

Spoke to the mechanic again. It runs for up to a couple of minutes, and then it stops. While it was running he pulled the two caps alternatly, and that showed him that it ran on both cylinders. Also it seems strange to me that it should stop after a few minutes with an ignition error. The plugs looked pretty dry. To me that says that it doesn't get enough gas. Is it possible that even with the new membrane and gasket in the gas pump there may be a block somewhere between there and the float chamber? Maybe it pulls gas (since the bladder is hard), but the gas doesn't get to where it should be?

 

[60sboater]

You might have a bad coil...or maybe both...gets hot and goes open circuit somewhere inside. There are some good Merc mechanics here and you can also search johns old mercury site...many there have '40s to '60s engines...small fee to join site. I have a '73 110 with the infamous PM ignition which I had to replace everything but the points and capacitor.

My manual (Seloc 1404) says your points should be .020" and plugs .030". All those ignition parts are available online. The coils can be expensive,check ebay. Let us know how it progresses.

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

Thanks for the answer! That is very possible. Should that be visible within a couple of minutes? Do you by any change know the ohm measuring values for those coils?

 

[racerone]

Those coils are actually very good.-----Does spark jump a gap of 7 mm , yes or no ?-

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

Thanks, I will have my mechanic check later today! And check when he has started it and ran it until it stops, in case it's the coil opening up when it's warm. I will also have him bypass the fuel pump and use the bladder to squeeze gas straight into the carb to see if it can be the check valves in the pump. I believe they can create problems on that thing, right? I found that direct connection trick here on the forum. Btw should there squirt gas out of the fuel pump if the line to the carb is disconnected and the handle pulled?

 

[60sboater]

If you or he has an inductive timing light,connect it to #1 wire (and the light to a 12V source,of course) and when the engine exhibits the problem,see if the flashing of the light stops,indicating and ignition problem...repeat for the #2 plug wire. I have not done this but it seems it should work. Every time a spark goes down a wire,the light flashes,so it should be helpful in troubleshooting.

I don't know what the coil resistance values are but the primary is usually very low and the secondary is several K-ohms...readings taken with respect to ground. A strong spark should jump approx. 1/4" or 6-7mm to ground if you want to check that.

 

[racerone]

Yes, the fuel should pulse from the pump outlet.----Are you using the " start " position on the handle or opening it up to the nuetral stop interlock ?

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

60's boater, man, that was smart thinking! :joyous: I'll ask hin to do just that!

Racerone, I'll ask him when I speak to him.

 

[racerone]

Points are gapped at 1/2 mm ??

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

Gentlemen, I think 60's Boater won this one! :lol: My mechanic tested the ignition lamp style, and he saw that the upper cylinder lost spark after a few minutes on full speed, and then it first went down in RPMs (same throttle) and then started to go up and down, up and down, while the flashes came few and far between. So I gather that means that the coil is shot? Or can it be anything else, like the points or something? Just to make sure he's now going to switch the coils to see if the problem becomes the same on the lower cylinder this time.

 

[Chinewalker]

My bet is that the condenser is the issue. Those coils are pretty reliable. If they're bad, the look it. The weak point on those magnetos is the condensers. I'd almost say that if you swapped the condensers around and then did the timing light test, you'd see the issue follow the condenser.

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

It's the coil! The problem moved to the other cylinder, exactly the same, when he switched them. But thanks for the tip about the condensers. I will order a new set of condensers, as well as a set of points, so everything ignition will be ship shape. I'll update when I know more! The only annoying thing is that I need to get it from the US. Mercury here could order the coil, but that would be around 200 dollars, and it could take from two weeks to two months... They had to order from the US, so I'll rather order myself, via a friend in the US who can package and ship it to me so I won't have to pay Norwegian extortion...duty on it.

 

[60sboater]

I hope it is the condenser...much less $$$ than a coil. Keep us posted. I think you will like that 9.8 when all the bugs are gone.

The points .020" translates to 0.51mm. The impeller ( usually every two years replace) can be found online in Mercury or Sierra...get Mercury part if available...easier to install.

 

[60sboater]

Ask your friend here to shop for the best prices. Wise idea to change all the components. Good work!

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

The impeller was changed last year, as a standard precaution, and the motor has hardly been used since, so that should be ok. And I'm pretty sure I got a good price on the stuff, it's already on the way over. I decided to drop sending it via my friend and just get it ASAP, I think my father's a bit worried he doesn't have all that many seasos left (he's almost 80), so he wants to get on the water as quick as possible. And I'm pretty sure it had to be the coil when only switching coils between them made the problem jump between cylinders, so that's also in the box. And of course I'll let you know what happens when it's replaced!

 

[Mastiff_in_Norway]

I have replaced the coil and the rest of the ignition system. So now it works nicely on mid and full speed, but it stops on idle. Sometimes it goes a few seconds, and then stops. Are there any good ideas for that one? The idle mixture screw is first 1,5 turn out and then careful adjustments from that, as far as I have found out. But what else can it be? The carb has been dismantled 3-4 times, and nothing seems wrong in there.