1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

[Starppy]

I'm looking for a little help with with a Johnson 60ESL71C. 60hp, Hydro-Electric shift, 1971. I have no spark and it appears to be stuck in forward. I know it's an electric shift and the default is forward so I am kind of assuming the two problems are related.

I did a little probing with a multi-meter at the buss and everything appears normal except the connections to a little black box on the right side (as you are viewing the engine from behind). It says Motorola Automotive, but the model number is scratched out. It has 3 wires to the bus that appear to be burned near the bus to the point that the insulation is cracked and bare wire is exposed. The tan wire has 12V from the bus and the other two are dead. A forth wire travels to the spark advance arm and then disappears under the flywheel. No voltage there either.

1. What is the black box and is this related to the other problems?
2. How can I test it?
3. Any tests or diags I should perform for spark problem.

I'm familiar with outboards and do a lot of work on Mercs of that era. I'm a Merc guy, but I don't hold a grudge. I have been posting on the Merc board since I found these forums. A little Karma would be nice.

Thanks

 

[Starppy]

Re: 1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

I found out the black box is an amplifier array. The same questions still apply though.

How does it relate to the ignition system and how do I test it? Is it even part of my problem?

All thoughts welcome.

 

[The Grail]

Re: 1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

Starppy,

I've got the same motor and the same problem, my amplifier and wires look like you described. Last year, I did a LOT of searching on the forums, and found some tests. I did those and determined that my amplifier was bad. I haven't replaced it, as it's my backup boat and I didn't feel like putting the money out at that time for an amplifier. From all I read, if the amplfier is shot, there is no ignition.

Karma coming your way - I saved the link:

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=256697&highlight=powerpack+60+hp

Good luck.

 

[rayodunne]

Re: 1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

Shoot me an email and I will send you some tests to run and and electrical diagram for your motor. rayodunne at gmail dot com

 

[Starppy]

Re: 1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

Grail,

Much appreciated! Simple enough test, just what I was looking for. Looking at the wires, I'm pretty sure it's shot, but it's always better to know than to guess especially with the cost of the parts.

Could someone out there tell me if this could be related to it being stuck in forward? Maybe a better question is how do I diagnose the electric shift? I'd hate to blow $300 on a new amplifier only to find out the solenoids in the LU are shot. I shudder to think what they might cost....if they are even available anymore.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: 1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

Hydro Electric Shift)
(J. Reeves)

The shifting setup of the lower unit is what's called a "Hydro Electric Shift", which is quite complex consisting of voltage being applied to solenoids in the lower unit which in turn change oil passages via a oil pump that supplies various pressure on a spring loaded shifter dog. The wires leading to the lower unit (at the powerhead) are "Green" and "Blue". The engine must be running or cranking over in order to shift out of forward gear.

You CAN NOT use HI VIS lube in that lower unit. You MUST USE what OMC calls "Premium Blend" lube, commonly called "Type C". (A thinner lube)

In neutral, you need 12v to the "Green" wire.
In reverse, you need 12v to both wires, the "Green" one and the "Blue" one.
In forward, there should be no voltage to either wire. (The spring loaded shifter dog forces the unit into forward gear)

To check the lower unit for proper shifting to make sure you have no trouble there, remove the spark plugs to avoid problems and to allow a higher cranking speed.

This next step eliminates the actual shift switch in case problems may exist there.... Disconnect the blue & green wires at the knife connectors (the rubber insulated boots) leading to the lower unit at the powerhead, then using jumpers, take voltage direct from the starter solenoid to apply voltage to the "Green" wire for neutral, then both wires 'Green" & "Blue" for reverse (Remember the engine must be cranking over in order to shift).
With no voltage applied, the unit should be in forward. No need for a ground jumper... the lower unit's already grounded. You may crank the engine with the key switch or by energizing the starter solenoid with a jumper wire.

 

[Starppy]

Re: 1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

tashasdaddy,

Excellent!! Just what I needed! I remember about the type C oil and a little bit about how they operate. I remember they used to flush them with ATF to clean out the valves and oil passages. I just don't have the specifics. I know I should RTFM, but like I said I'm a Merc guy. I'm not a brand bigot, it just worked out that way and I have all the manuals and tools for a Merc so I just stuck with them.

This Johnson is a bit of a charity case. It's in fair condition (other than the problems stated) and it came on a boat I just picked up. I plan to put a 72 Merc 650 on it that I just finished refurbing. Before I do I thought I would take a crack at getting the Johnson running and then donate it to Rawhide Boys Ranch http://www.rawhide.org which is a local charity that helps troubled teens. I heard on the local news that donations are down with the recession, but I don't want to send them worthless junk.

So, thanks to everyone. I'll post back on the results which might be a week or so.

 

[Starppy]

Re: 1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

I set the amplifier diags aside for now and decided to start with the LU because that will be the trickiest since parts are almost impossible to get.

I get the correct power on the leads so the switch and everything are fine. That leaves the solenoids in the LU. Just for the heck of it I did a resistance check (one probe grounded and the other on the lead down to the solenoid) and I get what equates to a dead short on both leads. I think I know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyway.....

What does that mean? Shouldn't there be at least some resistance from the solenoid?

I'm going to pull the LU just to make sure there aren't any shorts in the wires. Anyone have any diags for the solenoids?

Thanks

 

[Starppy]

Re: 1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

Just a follow-up for anyone that finds this thread looking for similar information. I found through another source that the resistance on the solenoids should be around 3-5ohms and my testing technique was correct. You put one lead on the wire to the solenoid and one to the frame testing each lead independently.

Just a quick note on my own opinion. I was curious about the design of this LU since this is the first time I ever encountered one. After I was sure it was toast, I disassembled it just to see how it ticked. I was not impressed. I have nothing against Johnson or Evinrude and I still don't, but this was a bad design. i think the fact that they only used this design for a few years speaks volumes about the problems they must have had with warrantee claims.

While very technically interesting and a novel application of the technology, in my OPINION it is just too overly engineered to be reliable in a harsh application like the LU of an outboard. Does anyone think it wise to submerse electrical equipment in water if they don't have to?

In my case I am none the worse for wear since I had written off the engine before I even purchased the rig, but my advice to anyone considering purchasing one is to just walk away. The availability of the parts for the HES LU is almost impossible. The other option is to consider the engine as disposable (use it until LU goes bad, and it will, and then replace it completely) and negotiate accordingly.

I hope that helps someone in the long run.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: 1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

Just about any part for that is available from the Evin/Jnsn store, not cheap though.

http://shop2.evinrude.com

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: 1971 60hp Johson electrical problem

Just a quick note on my own opinion. I was curious about the design of this LU since this is the first time I ever encountered one. After I was sure it was toast, I disassembled it just to see how it ticked. I was not impressed. I have nothing against Johnson or Evinrude and I still don't, but this was a bad design. i think the fact that they only used this design for a few years speaks volumes about the problems they must have had with warrantee claims.

While very technically interesting and a novel application of the technology, in my OPINION it is just too overly engineered to be reliable in a harsh application like the LU of an outboard. Does anyone think it wise to submerse electrical equipment in water if they don't have to?

Actually, the hydro electric system can be very reliable, if its taken care of properly. I have a 1972 Johnson 65hp engine with the same gearcase. Mine works just fine and is used regularly, year round. The trick to these gear boxes is to change the oil as required and to make sure that they remain sealed. If you let tehm get dirty or if you allow water infiltration, you will soon have problems.

Further, the part of the system that tends to be the problem, is more often than not the shift switch in the control box. The part is NLA, so if it breaks you can have problems. Fortunately, there are "work arounds" for this, so the motors can still be operated.