1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

ster1

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Nov 18, 2009
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82
Hello Folks,

It's me again, with more rotten wood. I am looking for some help. I started off just wanting to reupholster my crappy back to back seats and this is turning into a big ol CF. My craft is a 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 with a 3.0 OMC 400 stringer mechanical shift outdrive. I rebuilt the drive and actually like it (believe it or not) and the engine has unknown hours but consistent compressions, good oil pressure, and gets me on plane in 6 seconds every time (unless I'm pulling a skiier or something). So no complaints about the engine or drive. What happened is probably familiar to most of us; I started out with something minor in mind and it's turning into something major. I have a few youtube vids I posted on my channel I will try to post them here so you can see what I'm up against.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-rFxg6BquU

This is the first vid I took that shows some of the floor removed and the problem I'm really asking about. My problem is my engine seems to be mounted to blocks that have been laminated to a piece of plywood that runs right next to the stringers and then laminated to the stingers with fiberglass. Other than the fiberglass itself there is no other physical attachment to the stringers. Here's another video that might clarify a little:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1qC4OtCNBs

So the plywood next to the stringers was completely rotten, and probably has been for quite some time. I was pulling skiiers last year rolling that thing from idle to WOT all day, with no trouble. My first question would be, is my assumption correct that the only thing holding my engine in there was some fiberglass wrapped around a block, and no real connection to the stringers other than that fiberglass? Why didn't that engine come flying out of there? My boat building ignorance is shining through here. So now I've got a piece of rotten plywood that may or may not even be needed, and also the blocks the engine is mounted to are rotten so some degree. I think I'm looking at pulling the engine, and of course there is a long list of "while you have it out" stuff about the engine, but is it safe to assume this can be repaired? I plan on using the same method as the floor, cut out the old, install the new, fiberglass and all. I'm a little nervous messing around with the engine mounts just because the forces while underway are translated directly through my "repair". I haven't even decided if it's worth it at this point, also. That's a conversation for another day though. The big question is, can it be done by someone like me who obviously doesn't know enough about how boats are built? I know engines, I'm good with fiberglass and I'm OK with woodworking. It's combination of the 3 that are potentially disastrous. Sorry for the long post. I welcome your thoughts. Cheers!
 

mwe-maxxowner

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Jun 20, 2012
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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

Have you checked the stringers? With as much rot as it sounds you've discovered, you need to core sample the stringers and transom with about a ⅜ drill bit. Anything can be repaired, though. Sounds as if a complete rebuild may be in order.
 

ster1

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Messages
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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

I've done the extensive "bang on it" testing. I'm quite certain that would suffice. Especially since my percussive testing method sounded the same on the known - rotten mounts as it did for the stringers. Dammit. I better drill into em. Is there a depth I should go as a minimum, or just start evaluate as soon as the bit starts pulling wood out? Furthermore, I've found on forums both here and elsewhere that the stringer wood as a structural element is hotly contested. There are those who feel that the strength is in the 'glass and not in the wood at all. I can understand why this might be true. If it is, that wood can be rotten as hell and no badness will happen. I can also believe some others who say that theory is BS that the wood is used by the manufacturers for good reason; it makes the hull strong. the only logic I can apply to that is, if the wood in the stringer is so inconsequential, why do we all end up replacing it at one time or another; in other words, why is stringer replacement such a big deal? I don't have an answer for that. On the other hand, my mounts are rotten, and that engine is still there. That supports the theory that the strength is in the 'glass. I'm talking in circles and need to shut up. How deep should I drill?
 

mwe-maxxowner

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Messages
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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

From what I've gathered, the strength is in the glass if it was engineered that way. It can be made with only a foam core for the stringers, but in these sort of constructions, the glass will be more substantial than a wood and glass build, which relies on the wood and glass to work in concert. On the stringers just drill all the way through. On the transom, drill in about an inch. If the shavings are light in color and dry, fill the hole with 3m 5200 and thank the man above :).
 

JASinIL2006

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

And it may sound obvious, but pay special attention to any spots around thru-hull holes/fittings were water intrusion is likely. Also, if water's got into the boat, it's effects will be most noticeable lower, on the transom but also on the stringers. In addition to core-sampling a stringer or two, you might do the same with the floatation foam, on either side of a stringer. If it's wet near the bottom, it's only a matter of time before your stringers rot, if they haven't started. (I core-sampled foam using a piece of copper pipe. I sharpened one end with a file, then put some serrations on it and gently tapped it with a hammer and twisted it with vice grips until I hit the hull.)

I agree with what mwe-maxxowner said about the mounts. When I did my boat, I found the mounts were fiberglass with a foam core (and a block of wood embedded in the fiberglass to receive the engine mount lag bolts).

Good luck!

Jim
 

ster1

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

boat floor 3 - YouTube

I think this means curtains for this boat. I didn't want to get into the transom. I'm up against more work than I can do time - wise. I could just start on this one, not have a boat this summer, work on it all year and have a boat again next season, but do I really want all that work for a boat this old, the drive and engine being what they are etc etc? I don't think so. If the rot was limited to the mounts, I got to a place last night (assisted by some beers of course) where that was ok. But I draw the line at the transom. I'm saddened by this, I liked this boat. Not a good day for me today.
 

JASinIL2006

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

Sorry, man. I know the feeling. I remember having to go into the house and tell my wife that our "new" boat had a rotten transom. What a sick feeling.
 

ster1

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

I decided to quit whining about it and at least try to understand what happened and hopefully fix. I pulled the drive last night and will be pulling the engine today. At this point I have nothing to lose, and should at least use this as a learning experience!
 

mwe-maxxowner

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

This is a good way to look at it! You can make her like new again for a fraction of a problemless boat. There is a lot of work to do before you have to spend any money if you are still on the fence. Most would hesitate to rebuild it with the omc, as long as you know the deal with that and don't mind it.
 

ster1

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

Here's a video from today. I'm sorry it's pretty crappy because I have my music on and the noise from outside. I'll take some pictures tomorrow and put em on picasa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67jv1E5xu0s

So the stringers are hollow and will never rot, which is good. The transom is trash as well as the mounts. Neither of which is a horrendous repair but mwe, you hit on a key issue for me; if I'm going to go through all this, I want a Merc. With a rebuilt hull, I can justify the expense, and since we're already in the PITA category, might as well do it right. BUT have a look at how the transom is made - it's wierd. It appears to me that I cannot put anything but an OMC in there. Could I maybe put some gussets on either side of both stringers to create enough support for a Merc or am I stuck with the OMC?
 

GWPSR

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Jul 25, 2012
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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

There have been a number of I/O resto threads with boats having a transom very similar to yours. The one with the most pictures that I can think of is FriscoBoater's Carlson resto. There have been several others too, but I don't recall whose. Hopefully they'll be along to offer up examples. I think tying the stringers to the transom is likely key though, so you may be on the right track with gussets or similar.

There have been a number of OMC-to-Merc conversions. If memory serves, Oops's stretch was one maybe?
 

ster1

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

I believe it can be repaired, and I'm fairly certain I can do it. I just wish I started last fall :(. Poking around on Frisco Jays site and gabbing on his recent restoration thread, I learned something about Mercs I never knew, and that was how the engine was mounted to the inside of the transom, as well as the stringers (I never knew it was mounted to the transom, I always thought it was just mounted to the stringers and more or less "floated" somehow), and acts as a stressed member, negating the need for more gussets, and also fully enabling me to put in an Alpha 1 or one of those SEI units. I can also gain a few more inches of room on deck with a Merc with a few minor modifications. With a modern drive, this project is looking more and more feasible.
 

ster1

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

It just occurred to me that my transom is not perpendicular to my stringers by about 15 degrees. It's sits at about 105 to the stringers. Is there something in the Merc transom mounts and stuff that accommodates for this? And that also seems to suggest the engine is not mounted to the transom, unless its tilted up by about 15 degrees in my case. Mercruiser ignorance prominent here! Funny how there's a million threads and YouTube vids about removing and installing drives and hoisting engines using various methods but none that I could find that accurately shows the actual mounting (not even my manual). Thanks for your thoughts.
 

ster1

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

Thank you JaSin, that did answer my questions! It looks like mine is not the only boat with a 15 degree transom :). I found an old Larson tri-hull on Craigs for less than a grand. It has the 160HP I6 and alpha 1 gen 1. I'm going to try to pick up that rat raft today and post some pics of that ugly thing. The plan is to gut it (it even has a nicer trailer than mine), donate it (or get rid of it some way), and use the drive for my Seaswirl. I swill won't have a boat this summer but I can take my time, fix my floor and transom and rebuild the I6 and drive over the winter and next summer have pretty close to a new boat! I'm pretty excited about the potential (and the few extra ponies to boot). Sounds like a win to me :)
 

ster1

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

Here's the Rat Raft, the HIDEOUS donor vessel. The pre-alpha and engine seem to be in great shape The rest of the boat...? UG. I might have the courage to troll around my local lake this summer, might not. I dunno, too soon to tell.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/IqYRcT8ssWVfxFtvli2oI0aVbDCb6T8YOYhJ0L9wF4M?feat=directlink

Interestingly, the new power / drive combination is 6" longer from transom to front mount bolts than my 140HP 4 banger. That's 6" of precious space in the 17 footer but I think it's worth it.
 

ster1

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

So here's my plan. I'm going to use the best plywood Home Depot has to offer. 3/4" ply is actually 23/32 thick, and 1/4 inch ply is actually 7/32 thick. My hull is 3/16th thick, and overall the transom needs to be between 2" and 2 1/2". I'm going to extend that all the way past the stringers. I don't have to, it's just easier for me. Now, in order to reduce confusion, I calculated everything in 32nds. So, the transom needs to be between 64/32 and 80/32, and my hull is 6/32 thick already, so that means I need to have between 58/32 and 74/32 of plywood and glass. That means 2 layers of 23/32, and a layer of 15/32 laminated together would leave 13/32 I can play with for the glass.

I'm going to order some 1708 and csm mat from Jamestown Distributors and get about 5 gallons of polyester resin from my local West Marine store. I'm going to order 6 yards of the 1708, which comes in 40" wide rolls, and I haven't determined how much mat I'm going to order yet because I haven't calculated the area of the floor yet. In any case, I'll have a bunch of both kinds.

My plan for the glass is to use 1708 on the transom, engine mounts and tabbing between all that and the floor when it goes in. If that is not thick enough on the transom, maybe double up on layers or just add mat, whichever I have enough of to do. same for the mounts, 1708 plus mat. My question for now is, how thick is the 1708 going to be when cured? I plan on making a few dummy piece of ply with 1708, and ply with mat and ply with 1708 plus mat to find out. I just have to be accurate with the thickness of the transom, it can't be over 2 1/2", or Im going to be doing ALOT of sanding.

Also, since I'll have some 3/4 left over, use that to make my gussets, and ideally cover with 1708, if any is left, otherwise I'll use mat on those. I can get mat cheaply just locally to me, so I'm not worried about getting enough of that, I just want to make sure I have enough 1708.

Once that is done, put in the floor, which will be fitted already, and soaked and covered with mat so all I'll have to do at that point is tab it all in and let it dry.

I already know how I'm going to make my mounts, and where they have to be to accommodate for the new longer engine, I just have to make sure they're strong enough. The engine only weighs about 80 lbs more than the 4 banger and only generates about 15% more power but better to overbuild and make it back to the dock.

Time to start gathering materials.
 

Woodonglass

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Re: 1985 Seaswirl Tempo 17 floor replacement turning into something bigger.

You'll only be using 1-2 layers of CSM and 1-2 layers of 1708 on the transom. This will add approx 5 /32" to the overall thickness of the transom. You should fabricate the transom from two pieces of 3/4" and one piece of 1/2" When you use PB to glue it to the outer skin it will add a little over an 1/8" soooo by the time it's all in you'll prolly be right @ 2 1/4" which is just about perfect. The most important thing is that it's flat and parallel.
 
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