1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

[sheph]

Just getting started on my transom / stringer / floor repair and thought you all might be interested in seeing the progress. I've been lurking here for over a year and have finally plucked up the courage to give it a go.

This started out with the boat taking on water. It always leaked a little bit, but it progressively got worse. Not knowing a whole lot about the internal structure, and unable to tell where the water was coming in I took it to a shop. They concluded that the motor mount had collapsed and was causing the transom to flex. They couldn't fix it, but knew someone who could. So I took it to him, and he wanted around $5k to do the work (the boat's only worth about 2500), and I had to pull the motor, and outdrive myself. So I started looking online to see what it would take to just do the whole job on my own. This web site has some great information. Thank you to all who have shared your experiences.

So far I've got the seats out, the outdrive off, and pulled the engine. I pulled the carpet back on one side to reveal the soft spots in the floor. The gas tank chamber is full of rot and mildew. The cover was collapsing into the floor as the supports are rotted as well. I could not believe that even though this boat has not seen water in over a year the wood inside the motor mount was still wet!! I was able to scoop in out with a screwdrive. It's like butter. This brings me to my first question: If the motor mount had collapsed to the point where the transom was flexing, how do I know how far it has to be built back up? I was thinking about taking a level and setting it on the sides (which don't look like they've been compressed) and measuring to the bottom of the hull to determine how high it should be when I rebuild it. Is this a good strategy?

Another question I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to: do I have to pull the cap to replace the transom? The floor feels pretty firm from the cockpit up, so my thought was to start at the aft and work up until I get solid wood and then just replace it from there using epoxy to mate with the old. What do you guys think about that strategy?


Thanks,

Robert

PS. I've attached some pics of the damage.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Welcome to iBoats!
Since you have been "lurking" you know what others have done when they have found rot like yours. You can cut out only the rotted portions of the stringers and bulkheads and replace but if you miss any, the rot will permeate throughout the new wood and you'll be back in a few years replacing it again. Since you're gunna have to do a big majority of the Hard work you might as well plan on doing ALL of it. The good news is... for most I/O boats you don't HAVE to remove the cap. If you can get to everything and replace it then do it with the cap on. Keep posting pics and ?? and we'll be here for ya.

 

[rickryder]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Welcome to the Dry Dock Shemp!

Since your doing a Four Winns resto I have a lot of info in my thread that may help you I have a 210 but they should be pretty close in construction..... I'll be happy to assist you any way I can.

 

[sheph]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Welcome to iBoats!
Since you have been "lurking" you know what others have done when they have found rot like yours. You can cut out only the rotted portions of the stringers and bulkheads and replace but if you miss any, the rot will permeate throughout the new wood and you'll be back in a few years replacing it again. Since you're gunna have to do a big majority of the Hard work you might as well plan on doing ALL of it. The good news is... for most I/O boats you don't HAVE to remove the cap. If you can get to everything and replace it then do it with the cap on. Keep posting pics and ?? and we'll be here for ya.

Hi,

Thank you for the advice! I had kind of been kicking the idea around of biting the bullet and just doing the whole thing, but the problem I run into with this particular boat is that the cap extends down to the floor. The only way to really get under the floor and replace everything is to pull the cap. I don't mind doing that but I've read elsewhere in these forums that if you pull the cap you need to build supports and get it off the trailer. I have a winch suspended from the center beam in my garage. The winch is rated at 1100 lbs, but I'm not sure about the beam it's bolted to. It's what I used to pull the engine and the outdrive. I'm not sure I'd trust it to hoist up the entire boat though. If it is cinched down in the front and the back with the supports underneath shouldn't that be enough to keep it from twisting on the trailer?

 

[rickryder]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Is your trailer bunk style or roller? If you have bunks you can leave it on the trailer and put some extra support on the outer chines to keep the boat from flexing or twisting.... I did a cap on resto.....The deck under the front of mine was not rotted so I was able to leave some intact. Pic are in the thread.

 

[sheph]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Is your trailer bunk style or roller? If you have bunks you can leave it on the trailer and put some extra support on the outer chines to keep the boat from flexing or twisting.... I did a cap on resto.....The deck under the front of mine was not rotted so I was able to leave some intact. Pic are in the thread.

Yes I do have the bunk style trailer. I've been going back and forth on whether to pull the cap. I've seen other posts that said it makes it easier to do the transom and I'm certain I'm going to have to get into that. Not only that Woodonglass had a very valid point. If I'm going to go to all the trouble to do this I might as well do in such a way that I won't have to do it again for at least 20 years. After reading these last few comments I'm pretty sure I want to just pull the cap and do the whole thing right.

What do you guys think about this idea? Pull the cap off to replace the transom and cut out the bad stuff, and then put it back on as I'm doing the stringers. That way it has that extra support while it's in a vulnerable state. Then when I get ready to do the decking pull it back off again.

So far I've only gotten into it up the ski well and there is some rot there. In the front the floor feels solid, but that doesn't mean that it's not rotted underneath. I just got done pulling the gas tank (it would have to be full), and there's a lot of rot in there. All of the supports were bad, and the sides were just crumbling apart. So it's very probable that it extends all the way up to the front.

 

[rickryder]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Yeah my tank was full also.....damn 44 gallons sure is heavy!

I guess you could put the cap back on and off but if you brace the hull you should be OK

Pull the cap and take measurements..... gut everything and recheck the measurements...... If it stays the same your gold... if it moved a bit you could always shim up the bracing and get the cap back on...

If you put the cap back on you will be working setting and glassing the stringers under the bow seating.... That's an ugly mission! Been there done that! :facepalm:

 

[sheph]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Yeah my tank was full also.....damn 44 gallons sure is heavy!

I guess you could put the cap back on and off but if you brace the hull you should be OK

Pull the cap and take measurements..... gut everything and recheck the measurements...... If it stays the same your gold... if it moved a bit you could always shim up the bracing and get the cap back on...

If you put the cap back on you will be working setting and glassing the stringers under the bow seating.... That's an ugly mission! Been there done that! :facepalm:

Wow, 44 gallons!!! That's 264 lbs. I'd say that's heavy. I thought my 19 gallons was bad.

Thank you for the advice. I hadn't thought it would be that difficult working under the seats, but then I've never done this before and don't know how much room I'll need while glassing. When you say to take measurements before and after are you talking about the ground to the bottom of the hull or something else?

 

[rickryder]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

No take measurements across the top of the hull at per determined places... Take all the side panels off and mark the hull up high near the cap..... measure from the transom 3'-6'-9' etc along the gunwale and make marks.... do both sides.... measure across the boat at each corresponding mark and record..... pull cap and recheck measurements.... If the number gets longer or shorter the hull is spreading or sagging..

Here is what I'm talking about with the cap on.... see how close the stringer is to the walkthru section of the cap... REAL tough spot to crawl into and lay glass and resin....

 

[sheph]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Boy, a picture really does paint 1000 words. I see what you mean about the room up toward the front. Thanks also for the further clarification of measurements. I understand what I need to do now. I haven't gotten a chance to do any more on it. It's been raining, and it creates too much dust to cut the in garage.

 

[rickryder]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

No problem I'm just passin on what was done for me by the fantastic members on iboats!

Fill out yer info so we know where your from.....never know might have a member in your neighborhood that will drop by and help ya out!

 

[sheph]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration



Well, after a long haitus I'm back into working on this project. I got the transom out this last weekend, and there was a lot of rot in there. There is some discoloration on the inner wall of the hull and I'm wondering if rot can get into the fiberglass as well? I attached some photos to give an idea of what I'm dealing with. Do I need to treat that, or grind it out and fill it before putting the new wood in? What would you guys recommend?

 

[ezmobee]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

The fiberglass is fine. You've just got some more grinding to do to get it 100% cleaned up.

 

[mbasonic]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Hey sheph.
Im no expert or anything, but Im working on an 89 four winns freedom 170, and I've read a lot of threads to help guide my way. I feel like mine is coming together. My deck and stringers were bad, and a very small portion of the transom where the stringers were butted against were slightly contaminated. My hull(fiberglass) had this discoloration/rot appearance in the areas where the wood was directly touching it. I dont think you need to worry about it having ruined the transom wall or anything.....However, you will definitely need to grind it down with a sanding disc/ angle grinder to get to the "fresh" fiberglass underneath. What I would do afterwards, is ad a layer of resin/fiberglass over that freshly exposed area to bring it back to the original thickness (roughly) of the hull before your grinded it down. Then resin/glass your newly cut transom core back to the hull. Or....You could use nida bond pourable transom compound. This is a pretty amazing product. Its a little pricey, but you never need to worry about it rotting again. I filled a small portion of the bottom corners of my transom with nida bond, and my entire stringers/engine mounts are also made of it. Check out my thread. Maybe it'll give you some encouragement or help. This is my first major boat repair... http://forums.iboats.com/boat-resto...-560333.html?highlight=89+winns+stringer+pics

Matt

 

[sheph]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

The fiberglass is fine. You've just got some more grinding to do to get it 100% cleaned up.

Thank you for the response, I've done a bit more clean up on it and will post some pics later today.

 

[sheph]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

mbasonic - thank you for the advice. I'm no expert either (which is why I'm here ) I've been following your repair thread. I considered doing the nita bond thing on my own stringers, but I'm wondering how that will last over time. I know it won't rot, but being that it's not wood is it more susceptible to cracking, losing its shape, not as strong, or other possible downsides I'm not thinking of (other than expense obviously). I've seen where other folks have stated that nita bond isn't as good as a wood repair, and I'm wishing now I could remember where I saw that. It might have been on this forum or another web site. I've done a whole lot of reading. Out of curriousity do you know what kind of wood your stringers were made from? Mine look like they're pine, and for the most part they're in good shape execpt for where the cross supports were rotted and the rot got into the stringers there.

On the transom I've got some more grinding to do. I'm going to do what you suggested and get it down to clean glass and back fill it with resin/fiberglass. I'll definately go with wood there because I removed the whole thing. It seems like the right thing to do for my situation. It's not just a spot repair. Being that it's an I/O the transome is going to need to hold a lot of weight. At 1 3/4 " thick it was still flexing enough to let water in when the motor mount failed.

That's what kicked off this whole project to start with. Once I got into the motor mount and started exploring I found the rot had gotten into the cross supports as well as the stringers and the deck. It seemed solid when I purchased it, but being this was my first boat I really didn't know what to look for. It always leaked a little bit, but as long as you ran the bilge pump every 20 minutes or so it was managable. Over time it seemed to fill with water faster until I finally took it down to a shop and had them look at it. I also didn't know I was supposed to raise the front up when storing it, so I probably facilitated the problem to some extent myself.

 

[sheph]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Here are some more pictures. Another thing I ran into is the side supports next to the transom. Do I have to remove those or can I just grind away enough fiberglass to get the new wood in and then seal it up with PB?

 

[mbasonic]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

It's hard for me to see what lateral supports you're taking about, but what I think your talking about is just the side of the deck that runs along the side of the boat and butts against the transom. What you'll want to do, is just grind all that side area down to the fiber glass just like your doing in the back. Be careful not to grind through the boat in the grooved areas. Once you've rid the boat of all exposed wood back there, then repair your transom.... fiber glass the outside well and tab it in good to the rest of the fiber, then butt your deck against it (with a fiber glassed edge, then glass the two together). If you fiber glass between these areas separately before joining,I think it's being made better than original. It seems to me that the original design had all the wood butted together which would contaminate all the wood if one section started rotting. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding what lateral support you're talking about. I feel like Imay have contributed to my deck rot also with my learned habit of covering the boat after using it. However, we have to realize that our boats are twenty something years old. It's not all our fault. Things get old and fall apart.I'm really not sure what my deck or transom was comprised of, but it had a reddish tint to it. Also, on the nida bond. You'd be surprised at how amazingly strong this stuff is. It appears brittle, but is really strong. I can't remember for sure, but I believe oops used some nida bond. There's one thread out there that shows a sledge hammer being taken to the nida bond. It's very resistant to breaking. And..... the core of your stringers is mainly for that flexing support. The real strength is from the fiber glass that encloses it. Many new boats have hollow stringers. Many people Dog it just because they know it's expensive, and they're old school to sticking with wood. Technology is amazing. I feel that if you want to go with wood though, and you glass it in good, your going to get another 20-30 years out of it. Keep me updated
Matt

 

[mbasonic]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

Any progress on that boat?

Matt

 

[sheph]

Re: 1989 Four Winns Freedom 160 restoration

I've been working a lot the last few weeks so I have not gotten much done. I did pick up my plywood for the transom, got all the surfaces ground down and sanded for the transom, and took measurements to order glass supplies which I'll be doing today. Because I wasn't sure about the measurements for the motor mount I sent a query to Four Winns to see if they had specs for that model and year. They of course did not (which I'm pretty sure translates into we don't want to go try and find them). So I'm wingin' it. Using a level and a tape measure I've got measurements that are pretty close anyway. I'll wait until I get all done to glass over the top of it and lower the motor in to sanity check the height before I finish it off. I'm going to take a piece of the stringers down to the lumber yard and see if they can help me determine what kind of wood that is. When I get some more done I'll post some more photos.