4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

jimmythekid · Feb 10, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

if the infomercial doesn't lie, the E-Tec is one bad mo fo As far as 2strokes not in cars, one word TORQUE. Torque is what gets a car going, Horsepower is what gets a boat going. There have been 2 stroke car engines in the past, they have tried it. They all failed. this is a V6 2 stroke car engine: http://www.dyna.co.za/cars/DKW_V-6_Engine_sf.jpg

olm · Feb 10, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Glad to see the buzz about e-tech. having to change motors due to failure and concerned about another Evinrude. I did alot of research and my boat should be ready on monday with (2) 250 E-tech motors. Once i saw it, My Mind was made up. There is very little plunbing and pumps it is just simplified and built like a brick *&^%%$$. I will post updates

Paul Moir · Feb 10, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

BillP - I don't think your analogy quite holds. Everyone has a car, but few own an outboard. Those few that buy an outboard put more time and consideration into their purchase than someone who's looking for the most 'cash back'. It seems to me that a lot of people have utopian ideas when it comes to 4-strokes. In a few years when those same people have heard about making oil or tempermental valves - that sort of thing - those same people will be talking about the good old days of carbed 2-strokes. I suppose what I'm getting at is that popular opinion isn't very reliable.

Triton II · Feb 10, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

jimmy, here's a definition of horsepower courtesy of http://www.motionsoftware.com/glossary.htm which should clear up any misconceptions. My understanding is that the principles apply equally to cars and boats: Horsepower: Torque measures how much work (an engine) can do, power is the rate-based measurement of how fast the work is being done. Starting with the static force applied at the end of a torque arm (torque), then multiplying this force by the swept distance through which the same force would rotate one full revolution finds the power per revolution: Power Per Revolution = Force or Weight x Swept Distance. James Watt (1736-1819) established the current value for one horsepower: 33,000 pound-feet per minute or 550 pound-feet per second. So horsepower is currently calculated as: Horsepower = Power Per Revolution/33,000, which is the same as Horsepower = (Torque x 2 x Pi x RPM)/33,000, or simply: Horsepower = (Torque x RPM)/5,252. The horsepower being calculated by these equations is just one of several ways to rate engine power output. Various additional methods for calculating or measuring engine horsepower are commonly used (to derive friction horsepower, indicated horsepower, etc.), and each technique provides additional information about the engine under test.

olm · Feb 10, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

here is a thought. How many four stroke owners would drive their cars at 5000 rpms for a few ours at a time, over and over for years.

winoandino · Feb 10, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

If anyone has seen the new Evinrude E-Tec infomercial, I just saw it at the Atlantic City Boat Show, there is no question to which one is better. The guy from evinrude told me they will be showing it at the Miami Show next week with an engine running at the show in a tank. For any of you not familier with E-Tec I highly suggest you find out the facts. Heres the challenge to you 4-stroke fans: please give me 1... just 1 reason, with actual facts, why a 4-Stroke is superior to a 2-Stroke E-Tec.

Jason S in WA · Feb 10, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Well for one those of us who fish and troll I would say the majority of our boats spend most of the time at lower throttle settings. Maybe that would be why I like four stroke technology. After trolling with a two stroke I will not go back to one to troll. That being said I have a boat on order and the main motor is a 200 Yami HDPI, little kicker is a four stroke though. I do like two power I will say a two feels much stronger and was faster. The boat I am buying is a 20' aluminum. I drove one with the Yami 200 4-stroke and the 200 HDPI. You see what I ordered so I am not saying I don't like them. I just don't see the two's being able to keep up much furthur with emmisons regulations. New four stroke technology is being develpoed every day. Two's are pushing the emmisons envolope now as it is (I will say the E-tec according to Evinrude is supposedly cleaner than a 4 but that is according to them would be nice to see a independant test of them). Two's are nice but the future will be limited by how far they can go to keep up. Buring oil creates problems. Even with a three star rating they are nower as low as a car on emissons. I also see catalytic convertors in the outboard/inboard motors future. With the rise in popularity of boating and the push to clean up water ways this new two and three star rating CA is pushing through will be the first of many steps. If history follows other states will also follow just like the emmsions on cars. You guys may be right though. The new Rude sounds great. But so did the FICHT 225 HO how did that one go? Give it some time remember that 225 kicked everyone elses butt also (helped having 247 Popshaft HP -vs- competitors true 225). That was a proudly bragged about 247 out of a 225 also at the time remember. I am not one to jump on a bandwagon I guess. Give it a few years to srt out and see if it is still around. Most of those early year FICHT's are not. Would be interesting to see Merc or Yamaha do some decpetyive advertising and run thier 250's against the 225 Evinrude because all the Evirude guys do is down rate the motors to be faster. But if Yamaha put a 250 motor cover on their 225 motor they would wind up in court for it.

jimmythekid · Feb 11, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

triton: ok, obviously you are WAY more educated than I. I still say The more torque you have the better. For example: Say you have a 300hp V8 Engine. Now say you have a 300hp turbocharged 4 banger. Which one is gonna push a 3000lb load better? The V8 of course. Why? Because it has more torque. Thats why they use diesels in semis and locomotives because they have more torque. This simple example doesn't hold true in the world of boating I don't think. If it did l would wanta Dodge Viper engine in my boat

Another example: Two pickup trucks, one has a 220 hp V6 and the other a 220 hp V8 which one do you want to pull your boat to the ramp with? At least thats my understanding of it. What say you? Oh and I saw the whole Etech infomercial this morning, the way they showed it, the fuel/oil mix is injected after the ports are closed, does anybody know how the crank bearings get thier lube? If its injected into the cumbustion chamber, hows does it lube the crank? I like what i saw, time will tell. I am still droolin over my old Merc 1150 i got recently. peace

walleyehed · Feb 11, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

(I will say the E-tec according to Evinrude is supposedly cleaner than a 4 but that is according to them would be nice to see a independant test of them).

Jason.S, Who in the world do you think gives the 3 star rating?????? You don't honestly think the manufacturer just puts a sticker on it do you??? The EPA and CARB give them their rating....It's as un-biased as you can get!!! Contact CARB and have'em tell ya which is which.

bossee · Feb 11, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

It is interesting the Star rating: You can have an outboard 4-star rated today but no outboard manufacturer have yet done that. It will be interesting to see if and when they start to developed and sell it on the market. Will a 2-stroke direct fuel injection (DFI) or a 4-stroke electronic fuel injection (EFI) be first? "Four Stars Super Ultra Low Emission The four-star label identifies engines that meet the Air Resources Boards Sterndrive and Inboard marine engine 2009 exhaust emission standards. Personal Watercraft and Outboard marine engines may also comply with these standards. Engines meeting these standards have 90% lower emissions than One Star Low Emission engines." Source: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/marine/marinectp/marinectp.htm Manufacturers Advisory Correspondence MAC 03-01 (added February 4, 2003) Hang Tag and Star Labels for 2003 and Later Model Year Spark-Ignition Marine Engines (Word97 - 71K) or (Acrobat - 133K)

Jason S in WA · Feb 11, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Originally posted by walleyehed: 

(I will say the E-tec according to Evinrude is supposedly cleaner than a 4 but that is according to them would be nice to see a independant test of them).

Click to expand...

Jason.S, Who in the world do you think gives the 3 star rating?????? You don't honestly think the manufacturer just puts a sticker on it do you??? The EPA and CARB give them their rating....It's as un-biased as you can get!!! Contact CARB and have'em tell ya which is which.

Ok where on the CARB page is the fact that Evinrude is the cleanest of clean? Honda claims that fact on thier web page also. That is what I mean I would like to see CARB post a list of what is the cleanest and show the numbers of each motor I could not find it just now looking.

walleyehed · Feb 11, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

1-800-242-4450....ask for results on outboard marine engines.

winoandino · Feb 12, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Jason, Until you have driven an E-Tec and see how well they troll I would hold off on saying a 4-S trolls better. A guy I know who fishes the SKA told me he was blown away by how much better the E-Tecs trolled than anything he had ever driven. You can actually lower the RPM of the E-Tec down to 550 and you will go about .05mph depending on the boat. Oh and BTW, when trolling you will get about 3X better fuel economy with the E-Tec. You have to throw away everything you think about FICHT, that was an OMC design and the E-Tec is all BRP. Jason, have you driven a boat with a V-6 E-Tec??? For the emmissions concerns all V-6 engines, E-Tec Yamaha 4-S Verado and Honda are 3-Star with a 16.somthing rating which means they are all very close. What you don't know is the CO compairson, which must be taken into consideration since that will be the next thing regulated. At idle a Yamaha puts out over 38,000 parts per million(PPM) of CO, the Verado is over 54,000, the E-Tec is 600. There really is no compairson. When the CO regulations come out in a few years 4-S technology may be the one that has to go. And lets talk warranty... The Yamaha has a 3 year declining warranty, Evinrude has a 3 Year NON-declining warranty which even includes Spark plugs for the 1st 300hrs. Sorry, but I'm still waiting for a reason to get any 4-Stroke over the E-Tec.

phatmanmike · Feb 12, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

im with jimmy on this one

I am still droolin over my old Merc 1150

Jason S in WA · Feb 12, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Originally posted by winoandino: Jason, Until you have driven an E-Tec and see how well they troll I would hold off on saying a 4-S trolls better. A guy I know who fishes the SKA told me he was blown away by how much better the E-Tecs trolled than anything he had ever driven. You can actually lower the RPM of the E-Tec down to 550 and you will go about .05mph depending on the boat. Oh and BTW, when trolling you will get about 3X better fuel economy with the E-Tec. You have to throw away everything you think about FICHT, that was an OMC design and the E-Tec is all BRP. Jason, have you driven a boat with a V-6 E-Tec??? For the emmissions concerns all V-6 engines, E-Tec Yamaha 4-S Verado and Honda are 3-Star with a 16.somthing rating which means they are all very close. What you don't know is the CO compairson, which must be taken into consideration since that will be the next thing regulated. At idle a Yamaha puts out over 38,000 parts per million(PPM) of CO, the Verado is over 54,000, the E-Tec is 600. There really is no compairson. When the CO regulations come out in a few years 4-S technology may be the one that has to go. And lets talk warranty... The Yamaha has a 3 year declining warranty, Evinrude has a 3 Year NON-declining warranty which even includes Spark plugs for the 1st 300hrs. Sorry, but I'm still waiting for a reason to get any 4-Stroke over the E-Tec.

I have not driven an E-tec but have directly compared two vs four technology with the 200 HDPI and the F200 from Yamaha. E-tec is too new for me. I see way to much stuff come out first year with great promise only to fizzle out. If it is around 5 years from now when I buy another new boat I may consider it. As to E-tec being all new as far as what I have read it is just another direct injection with a minimization theary held to it. We shall see I am not knocking it. (ON EDIT-another reason I did not consider a E-tec was the extra weight afforded by them. Those and the Verado are way too heavy in my book for the given power rating. My HDPI is 466# it is just shy of another 100# to go to the E-tec. That is my kicker motor which will be used for trolling hanging back there. Safety first) What my post WAS directly about is that as much as I love two strokes in the future emmisonswill be too strick for them. It is because they burn the raw oil. We shall see. I am sure every one on here has heard the anology that opinions are like A#$holes everyone has one and they all stink.

walleyehed · Feb 12, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

What my post WAS directly about is that as much as I love two strokes in the future emmisonswill be too strick for them. It is because they burn the raw oil. We shall see.

You've still missed the point.....the 2-strokes HAVE LOWER emmisions...it's already here. It's becoming too strict for the 4-strokes to keep up. The 200HPDI weight is a misprint according to my local Yamaha dealer, and should read 475, which makes it only 41lbs lighter than an E-tec. Yamaha HPDI std warranty is only 2 years, not 3, unless you pay for the YES program....the HPDI is only 2-star rated as well. E-TEC is 3 year non-declining warranty with 4 yr extended, simular to the YES program, and has a 3-star rating. The HPDI is already at the stage of being fased out due to the 2-star rating, so it's really not even fair to Yamaha to compare the 2.

imported_JD__ · Feb 12, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Question: I'm somewhat familiar with the Mercury Opti design just from what I've read. Is the E-Tec a hybrid also, having a sump? How is the crank, rods and cylinder wall lubricated?

winoandino · Feb 13, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Independant studies have actually shown that 4-Strokes do actually burn some oil as well. I have changed the oil on 4-Strokes before and found there to be less oil than what I put in 100hrs ago. The thing CARB, EPA, etc. love about E-Tec is that all of their oil is accounted for in its 3-Star rating. Those really concerned about the environment should love the 2-S E-Tec. A 4-Stroke's oil has to be disposed of when it's removed... where does it go??? I think you will see major backing form the EPA as well as CARB behind the 2-S E-Tec now that they are begining to learn the truth. JD, The OPTI is an orbital design direct injection (just a different style). The difference between Opit or HPDI(both old DI technology) and Evinrude's E-Tec is that while Merc and Yamaha have based their reasearch and future on 4-S technology thinking that was what the industry wanted BRP passed them both by developing a 2-S direct injection that was not only strong as any engine out there, but one that was as quiet and smooth as a 4-S at idle, cleaner, and more fuel efficient. Something the Opti and HPDI are not. Oh and as far as waiting 5 years get real. You can buy an Evinrude that comes with 7 years of protection that is all the realibility I need. Heck E-Tec has been out since 2003 with no problems at ALL.

Jason S in WA · Feb 13, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Originally posted by winoandino: Independant studies have actually shown that 4-Strokes do actually burn some oil as well. I have changed the oil on 4-Strokes before and found there to be less oil than what I put in 100hrs ago. The thing CARB, EPA, etc. love about E-Tec is that all of their oil is accounted for in its 3-Star rating. Those really concerned about the environment should love the 2-S E-Tec. A 4-Stroke's oil has to be disposed of when it's removed... where does it go??? I think you will see major backing form the EPA as well as CARB behind the 2-S E-Tec now that they are begining to learn the truth. JD, The OPTI is an orbital design direct injection (just a different style). The difference between Opit or HPDI(both old DI technology) and Evinrude's E-Tec is that while Merc and Yamaha have based their reasearch and future on 4-S technology thinking that was what the industry wanted BRP passed them both by developing a 2-S direct injection that was not only strong as any engine out there, but one that was as quiet and smooth as a 4-S at idle, cleaner, and more fuel efficient. Something the Opti and HPDI are not. Oh and as far as waiting 5 years get real. You can buy an Evinrude that comes with 7 years of protection that is all the realibility I need. Heck E-Tec has been out since 2003 with no problems at ALL.

I will tell you where the oil goes. It gets recycled. Go ask your local auto parts store or quick change shop. Then it gets used in industrial applications (i.e. fleet vehicles, heavy machinary). The E-Tec has been out in low HP rating for a while big difference there. 225 HP has 10X the mechanical stresses of a 90 HP motor. I am not knocking the motor. All I am saying is that the technology is all ready there to make a 4 stroke much cleaner than a two stroke. It has had 90+ years of refinment in the automotive industry. Just recently they have been changing 2 stroke to be clean. Look at dirt bikes, snowmobiles, lawnmowers and weedwakers most manufactures have went to 4 strokes to clean them up. Boat motors will as well. Again I just bought another two stroke for the power so I have nothing against them.

Triton II · Feb 13, 2005

Re: 4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

Jimmy, the earlier post about torque and horsepower explains how both are measured... what it says is that if an engine develops a certain amount of power at a certain rpm it has a certain amount of torque. If another engine develops the same amount of power as the first engine at half the rpm then it has double the torque. So, you're right (and obviously just as well educated

) in that a big displacement diesel will produce more torque than a small displacement four stroke even if they produce the same amount of horsepower.

4 Stroke Really Better Than 2 Stroke ?

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