70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

[Lwapo]

Hi all,

Long time reader - first time poster!

I recently picked up my latest project. It's a small runabout boat with a 70 HP 1971 (ish) 3 cyclinder Chrysler Outboard on it.

My question relates to the components of the ignition. I had a 120 HP Chrysler that I worked on that had a different ignition setup.

This motor runs from the battery, to a resistor, to the coil, to the distributor. There is no CD module. Nothing "appears" to be missing, but my other motor had one. I guess I'd just like to verify that it hasn't been butchered for parts before I got it.

From my online research, it appears that this ignition simply uses the distributor and the coil. Can anyone verify? Most iginitions have the CD module AND coil.

Other info on the motor...
Good compression on all cyclinders.
Lower unit is in great shape. Shifts nicely, seals are in good order, etc.

One last question... the distributor appears to be in great shape. However, the cap is a little iffy. It seems like SUCH a simple part to find... almost too simple. Can anyone point me to a site/company/person that I can just buy a new distribuor cap from?

Thanks in advance! I'll keep everyone updated with anything that I learn!

(I can post pics and additional info if it helps, just ask for what ya need!)

 

[Lwapo]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Bump! Anyone?

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Very early Chrysler engines (around 1965-67) did use a simple battery and points ignition. I have only come across one set-up like that. If the coil has a bent aluminum mount holding it to the three posts on the bypass side, it is stock, otherwise it has been retro-fit. Your comment about the resistor alerts me to think it is stock as most people will just fit a regular 9Volt coil and forget about the resistor.

For the cap, unless it is actually damaged or malfunctioning stay with the one you have. They are very expensive new. You can try franzmarine@aol.com for a new one or send me a private message for a used one.

If you can find a good functioning Motorola CD box It can be retro fit to your engine with no modifications, simple bolt on, and you will enjoy a better running engine. Points and battery is low spark voltage (only about 10,000) and elecgtronic will provide a better idle. If you do retro-fit to electronic remember to change plugs to surface gap if they are now bent electrode type.

 

[Lwapo]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Frank,

First off let me thank you for your help so far. I am sure that helping us backyard mechanics is a very thankless job!

I have some pictures and questions as I get started. I have worked on a couple of johnson motors and 1 120HP Chrysler (Circa 1970-ish) motor as well as a lot of cars. I am no expert but I consdier myself reasonably mechanically inclined and electronics are something I find interesting and fun.

That being said, here are some pictures and questions as I've never seen an ignition system like this!

(#1 Pic Above) This is a side view of my motor. The "Resistor" that I mentioned is what I have circled in blue. The two wires from the stator run to this as well as a + (Red) wire. My understanding is that this regulates the charging and sends current to the coil. I'm looking to verify that this is correct.

(#2 Pic Above) This is the opposite side of the motor. I have boxed in the coil in blue. Also, there is a small component on the side of my distributor that I have boxed in green. I think that the component in the green box is the "Pre-Amp" but I'd like to verify that. Also, I don't understand what the pre-amp does? If you could tell me what this thing is, and what it does, it would be great!

(#3 Pic Above) This is a close up view of the component that was boxed in green from the previous picture. I took a close up so that you could get a good look at it.

(#4 Pic Above) This is a bottom view of the coil. The blue (Igintion) wire runs to the right side and the wires from the resistor in pic #1 run to the other side. It was a "High tension lead" (I think that's what it's called) that runs from the coil to the center of the distributor cap. My understanding is that the resistor sends current to the coil and then distributor tells the coil when to fire. When it fires, it sends current into the distributor cap and onto the spark plugs. Is ths accurate?

(#5 Pic Above) This is the inside of the distribuor cap. In my opnion, it's a bit of a mess. Is this something that I can clean up myself? (Dry cloth, lightly sand the posts, etc) or is is something that is better off replaced? I read somewhere that once corrosion starts in a cap, it pretty much will continue to corrode and should be replaced. I'd like some input on what you (Or anyone else) thinks I should do. Thanks!

I should note that the center (Carbon?) knob that is mounted to a spring is slightly broken off. If I decide to keep this cap, I will replace this part from a cheap distributor cap. I attached a meter to this knob as well as the other end of the high tension lead to ensure that it was still conducting... it is.

(#6 Pic Above) In the white box are what I understand to be the points. As the shaft in the distributor turns, it raises and lowers a point that "rubs" on the lobe. This causes the points to open and close. The gap between the points when they are open is the "gap" that is referred to when "setting the gap." It's currently set at 0.014".
**************************************
Notes...

Stator - I disconnected the 2 wires coming from the stator with an ohm meter. Now, my ohm meter is very low-end, so bear with me when I describe this... When I connected the 2 leads to the meter, the needled jumped considerably. This should mean low-resistance. (When I touch both terminals from the meter to a section of metal, the needle jumps as well) I also removed the flywheel and verified that both leads had ZERO reaction when connecting one line from my ohm meter to a lead from the stator and the other lead from the ohm meter to the "body" of the stator.

Coil - Both terminals of the coil read as a positive charge. I used a testing light and when connected to either of those two terminals and then to ground... both sides read as + (Positive). Is this correct? I thought one of them should be a ground?

Distributor - I verified that the spark plug wires are in good shape and there is connectivity between the end that goes on top of the spark plug and the nub inside of the distributor.

Points - I verified that the points connect when closed and are at 0.014" when open.

Black wire inside of distributor - I made sure that this wire isn't corroded/etc. It has connectivity between the end that connects to the points mechanism (Trigger?) and the node on the side of the distributor.

Timing - I aligned the "I" on the flywheen with the "0" on the bent section of metal on the front of the motor. I verified that the top (#1 cyclinder) was at TDC at this point. (Rotated the flywheel slightly both ways to ensure that it was TOP dead center). Then I aligned the distributor so that the arc on the pulley was lined up with the flywheel. This put the rotor arm right at the node that connects to the #1 cylinder high tension lead and spark plug.
****************************************

I have no spark and I'm curious as to what I should do now! Thanks everyone in advance!

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

That's a stock Chrysler ignition. The item circled in blue is a selenium rectifier. In between the red coated steel plates are selenium discs. Selenium has the property of passing voltage in one direction at the interface.

The coil is mounted on the bent aluminum mount with a cast piece behind it. this is stock. Correct wiring is blue from "I" terminal to pos of coil and wire from neg coil terminal to points. When the ignition key is on, voltage is always flowing to the coil. When the points close, current flows through the coil primary winding and builds up a magnetic field. The amount of time the points are closed is called dwell and directly affects the strength of the field. When the points open, current stops flowing and the field rapidly collapses inducing a high voltage in the secondary windings. The coil is really a simple transformer that works on DC.

I don't see a capacitor inside the distributor and I have never seen the piece outside it, but I would be willing to bet that it is a capacitor designed to minimise arcing at the points.

Points are correctly set at .014, but timing needs to be set at full throttle 32 advanced because top dead center is not necessarily where the engine will run at idle.

The distributor cap looks OK except for the center button and if you can find a piece of graphite the correct size, you need not replace the cap. The copper strips inside the cap are grounds for the unused terminals.

Judging by a number of things I would say your engine is pre-1970 of very early: Lifting eye on the block, selenium rectifier, points distributor and regular coil. mounting of terminal strip, flat plate oil recirculation cover, fuel pump, carb airbox.

Oh! I didn't see correctly before. The thing mounted on the distributor in the green box is a neutral interlock switch. Actually it does not keep the engine from starting in gear, but rater, keeps you from starting it when the control handle has advanced the throttle. Coast guard later considered this arrangement less than safe and the switch was moved on later engines to the shift lever below the carbs--That prevented engine starting in anything but neutral position.

 

[Lwapo]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Oops! There is a compacitor inside the distro but the pic of it is obstructed by the rotor.

Thank you for the good info! That should help me test some things.

Just curious... what else should I do in my quest for spark?

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Being a 12 volt alternator, the windings on the stator are heavy gauge and there is low resistance. As long as there is not zero resistance indicating a short to the core or infinite resistance indicating a broken wire, the stator should be OK. If you are not getting spark and have already checked the plug wires, then it is time to check the coil. With the distributor set at Top dead center and the top plug out but connected to its wire, run 12 volts directly to the positive side of the coil and with a jumper wire, make and break ground on the negative terminal. (you are bypassing points and energising the coil directly) If you now get spark, you have proven that the ignition switch, capacitor, OR the points are bad. On an engine that old and since you have cleaned and gapped the points, I would suspect capacitor first, or, if the boat was stored outdoors, ignition switch. If you do not get spark, then the coil needs to be replaced.

Looking at the photos again, I can see a bit of rust on the screws and terminals on the distributor. The black wire on the outside ensures a ground between the moving part of the diswtributor and the mount--thus the block. Be certain that this wire actually does ground the distributor because the points go to ground to energise the coil. Be certain that the points themselves are grounded against the distributor body and that corrosion has not insulated them. Be certain that the wire on the terminal on the side of the distributor is not insulated by corrosion. Remember: This wire is from the negative side of the coil and voltage MUST pass through it and the points to build up a magnetic field inside the coil.

 

[Lwapo]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Ok, I tested the coil but would like to verify what I found.

I think that the coil is dead.

I positioned the distributor rotor so that it was touching the node or point for my #1 cylinder. I then pulled that spark plug and touched the threaded part to a solid ground on the block. I had removed the wire from the (-) side of the coil and put one side of a lead onto that terminal. I verified that I had positive (+) current to the postive side of the coil and then touched the jumper lead from the negative side onto the block.

No spark on the spark plug.
NOTE: For this test, I tried both the plug from the motor, and a brand new spark plug in case there was an issue with the plug itself. I got the same result both times.

Now, I am not convinced that my distributor cap is in solid working order, so I hardwired connections with the cap off to try to eliminate any possible interuptions. A pic of what I did is below.....

After all of this, I am reasonably certian that my coil is dead.

Now after looking around, it seems that almost any 12 volt ignition coil will work. (Aparently I have to be careful because a lot of automotive coils are 9 volt)

So I'd like to know if I need to find a motor-specific coil or if I can pick up just about any 12V coil?

Also, do I need the bottle style that I have now, or can I use the newer box style?

Thanks in advance!

PS... Here are a couple of ebay links to coils that I would consider looking at.

This one is similiar to the one that is on there now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/12-V...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

This is the newer "box style" that I was asking about.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HD-U...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Lastly, this is a "performance" coil. Would I see any diference (Postively or adversely) by using a coil like this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HIGH...temQQitemZ150477432530QQptZRaceQ5fCarQ5fParts

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

The key words in the first coil description are : The coil is the external resistor type." External resistor coils are 9 volt. They are describing it as 12 volt because it is used on a 12 volt system. While the car is running, the voltage in the system and at the battery is 12 volts, more or less. So a resistor is put in series with the coil. When starting the engine, the starter motor uses so much current (high draw) that system and battery voltage drops to 9 volts. The external resistor is in a circuit that cuts it out at start, so the 9 volt coil gets full design voltage (9 volts) and delivers its best spark plug voltage.

So: Because the outboard engine starter is smaller, you don't get the same voltage drop and you have the option of using a 9 volt coil with a resistor in series or a 12 volt coil. Me? I would go with a 12 volt performance coil, as long as it was bottle type to fit the existing mount. (I'm lazy, don't want to make a new one) I would however, question the seller as to whether or not the coil was designed for 12 volt or 9 volt primary input.

Ultimately, it's your time , money, and engine. The decision is yours

 

[Lwapo]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Update!

Ok, I've done some more work in various areas, but I won't detail it because it doesn't affect my question...

If I rotate (crank) my motor, I get no spark at the spark plugs.

However,

If I put my flywheel in a position that my distributor's rotor is meeting the point for cylinder #1, then I remove the yellow lead from the coil and manually ground that side of the coil.... I get spark! (same for all 3 cylinders)

If I hook that same wire back up, no spark.

Any ideas? Inside the distributor (You can't see it in the pic above) there is a compacitor, could this be the issue? I've checked to make sure that the connections are good from the lead outside the distro, all the way to the points, etc.

Thanks in advance! I'm close!

 

[Lwapo]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Update!

Spark! Fire!

Motor will run for a quick sec or two with some pre-mix sprayed in.

Backfired badly so I will have to re-evalute timing.

I'll keep posting updates for those that are interested!

 

[Lwapo]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Ok, I'm not sure what my issue is now. I've checked the things that I can do myself so I'm looking for more help please!

I have spark to all three cylinders.

I aligned my "I" on my flywheel with my "I" on the timing indicator. (#1 cylinder at TDC). At this point, my #1 spark plug sparks and the ")" on my distributor's pulley aligns with the flywheel.

I then put the motor to wide-open-throttle. At this point, the motor should be set at 32 degreeds BTDC. There is a mark for "36" that I aligned with the -4 on the timing strip. This *should* mean that at WOT the motor will fire at 32 degrees BTDC.

I also pulled off all three carbs. I pulled off the bowls, pulled the inlet needle, main jet, etc. (My seloc online manual had a walkthru of how to do it). I cleaned everything liberally with carb cleaner. I used a full can between the three carbs. I was careful to reassemble things correcting, etc.

I adjusted the linkage and choke for all three carbs. All three choke flanges close together, and all three of the throttle flanges begin to open, hit halfway and hit fully open at the same times.

The motor is in neutral. I manually jumped the ignition wire to the positive wire to ensure that a short wasn't my problem.

The motor will turn over and on occasion will fire once. However, it won't start and won't really fire more than once.

I'm stuck for ideas! I should have gas, air and spark... I should have fire!

Please help! If you need info or pics of anything... simply ask!

Thanks in advance!

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Try changing the plugs. Occasionally, plugs will fire in the air but under compression will misfire--and this can happen with new ones. Especially with a weak ignition system.

 

[wjwolfe82]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

The motor will turn over and on occasion will fire once. However, it won't start and won't really fire more than once.

I have a 1973 Chrylser 70 hp...looks to have the same motor as yours. A few years ago we went to put it in and it would not start. It did exactly the same as you describe above. If I remember correctly it would fire about every 3rd try or so but never start.
The problem turned out to be the ignition switch. I took it home & replaced the switch and lo and behold it ran just like it's old self...smooth as butter.
The switch wasn't too difficult to find...got one at a local boat shop...about $20 or $30 bucks I think.

My grandfather gave us the boat about 10 yrs or so ago. He was the second owner and never had to do any kind of repairs to the motor. We replaced the impeller in the lower unit and other than the ignition switch...(I think we've gone through two of them) have never had any trouble with it. It may smoke a bit but never stranded us out on the water. She buzzed along quite nicely.

 

[Lwapo]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Frank,

There is a small compacitor (Condensor?) inside the distributor. If I connect this, I get no spark at the plugs. If I don't connect it, I get spark. What is the function of this part and could this be my issue?

Thanks!



82 - Thank you for the input. I am hopeful that once I get this motor going, it will run for a while if I take care of it, standard maintenance, etc. I had another Chrysler that I was very happy with once I got it running! The general consensus is that if you have a working CDI, you have a working chrysler. Mine has no CDI, so I think the rest of the motor should last quite a while!

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

That capacitor simply keeps the points from arcing and burning as they make and break contact. This significantly extends point life. Obviously, the capacitor is shorted. Buy another from franzmarine@aol.com or try a lawnmower capacitor.

 

[Lwapo]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

VROOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

Motor is running

I only had it started for a few seconds and then shut it down. I haven't inspected the impeller yet, but I expect that it's junk due to how long the motor sat.

Once I get that replaced, I can start tuning the motor and I will update everyone further!

Thanks,

Lwapo

 

[huskerdaninva]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

That is sweet! I have a '69 70 hp w/Magnapower Ignition. (Distributor/Points/Coil/CDI box) It's a good feeling when you get her running and know she'll live! Mine had sat for over 20 years so I can certainly relate to your feelings of joy and the work involved in getting her running again after a long hibernation. Maintenance work is next. LU seals, new fluid, impellar, carb rebuilds,etc. as I'm sure you know.

I had never seen an ignition like yours on a Chrysler, and don't even see it listed in my Glenn's repair manual. (of course, I'm no guru like Frank et al!) Do you have a firm idea on the year of the motor? Is that the original ignition? I'm wondering if that set up provides a good hot spark? What plugs are you running?
Congrats and good luck!

 

[Lwapo]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Hey,

A few things...

1) Welcome to the Big Ten. Just so you know, Michigan Football > Nebraska Football.

2) My ignition system is not like anything I have seen or found in any manual. When I first looked at the motor, I wondered if someone had bought it and took the CDI box off and then resold it.

I don't have a really firm idea of the year of the motor. Anything that I find lists it at 1969-1970, but most engines from that period used the CDI box. I'm guessing it's older than that. I will post the serial and whatnot tomorrow so somone can look it up if they have the means.

As far as "good hot spark" I have no idea. It's hot enough to make it run? I do get a nice blue spark, so I think that I am.

The manual says I should be using "Champion L20V" plugs and the ones that are in there (came with it) are "Champion L17V" plugs. Now that I"m sure it's got a reasonable chance to run... I'm going to grab the exact right plugs, etc.

Overall, I like the ignition system. It's very very simple, but all the replacement parts are cheap No CDI box to go bad so I'm hopeful that it performs well. I may change my opnion if it runs rough each time the barometric pressure or temp drops, but for now... I'm happy with it.

We'll know a lot more once I pick up an impeller and can start tuning it in the yard!!!

 

[huskerdaninva]

Re: 70 HP Chrysler Component Question...

Thanks for the "Welcome" from Big 10 land and a Wolverine fan. The L20V plugs are surface gap w/no electrode, I'm curious if your ignition will generate suffiecient spark to properly run those plugs. Are you currently running electrode plugs? II'm thinking your set up has to be mid 60's. She's cool looking!