'87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

[briguy2817]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

I at first thought that the motor had to be running since it was staying up for a few seconds, but what I think is actually happening is that the trim cylinder, the small ram on the bottom, is retracting when it's put in gear, then the tilt ram can't hold up to the thrust of the motor and it drops suddenly.

This makes sense. But, what is making the trim cylinder retract? That's the weird part. If it isn't a stray 12 volt source, how can it all of a sudden retract when you put it into gear. But jet, when you push on it with it out of gear, it stays up.

I did this already, I cut the wires at the tilt pump and wired a new tilt/trim switch directly to the pump with a power and ground feed going right to the battery about 3 feet away. The leads on the switch are only long enough to reach past the splashwell. The only change when I did this was that it will tilt in reverse and forward now.
After figuring out how the pump motor and valve body worked, I was thinking that maybe somehow it was getting a momentary 12V shot in error somehow reversing the motor when it shouldn't be running at all but that idea was gone when I saw it drop even with the pump wires disconnected.

Well I guess you can eliminate it being electrical if their are no wires connected to it.

If it's electrical, the only electrical still connected are the three, what I presume are sending wires.

What happens if you disconnect these wires as well?

It will all be disconnected soon, I am reading another motor and am hoping to get a chance to make the swap this one night this week.

Hopefully the new set up works out all right for you. If by any chance you don't do a swap, and continue to play with this old system, let us know what happens. I hate giving up on a problem unless I know exactly what went wrong.

Brian

 

[briguy2817]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

Sounds to me like you are describing a 40HP system. Quite possibly it's insides are blown out if you tried trimming a 125HP with it. Post some pics of tilt trim system with engine in fully tilted postion. Get one pisture of rams from directly behind boat. Get one picture of trim pump while standing behind boat with engine slightly to your left. Get another somewhat closer shot showing the oil tubes (how many and general location). Post these three pics and we can sing from the same hymnal.

RRitt, you seem to know these tilt units pretty well, so, I have a quick question for you. Where can you get a rebuild kit for a unit like this? My unit will bleed down from full tilt to full trim in a period of 40 minutes. Can I get the o-rings from a specialty store(Motion Industries)? I have rebuilt hydraulic rams and valve bodies in the past(I am a fleet mechanic) so I have the tools to take these thiings apart.

Brian

 

[RRitt]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

RRitt, you seem to know these tilt units pretty well, so, I have a quick question for you. Where can you get a rebuild kit for a unit like this? My unit will bleed down from full tilt to full trim in a period of 40 minutes. Can I get the o-rings from a specialty store(Motion Industries)? I have rebuilt hydraulic rams and valve bodies in the past(I am a fleet mechanic) so I have the tools to take these thiings apart.

Brian

What year and HP are we talking? If pre-1991 then it's probably the check valve in pump. No rebuild kit that I know of. Generally speaking mercury's attitude is that you should buy one of their new engines instead of fixing your old one ... you may find a few parts through dealers but not enough to do a complete job.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

......... Generally speaking mercury's attitude is that you should buy one of their new engines instead of fixing your old one ... you may find a few parts through dealers but not enough to do a complete job.

That's definitely the attitude around here, and I find it's only the Merc dealers who convey that attitude. I have no problems finding OMC or other brand parts.
It certainly doesn't make me want to go back there when or if I ever do buy a new one.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

Hopefully the new set up works out all right for you. If by any chance you don't do a swap, and continue to play with this old system, let us know what happens. I hate giving up on a problem unless I know exactly what went wrong.

Brian

I'm not giving up on it, I just don't have the time to deal with it right now. I have a perfect motor that I can hang and get some use out of this boat for the rest of this season, I'll deal with the Force motor later.

It makes no sense to me either why the cylinder retracts without any contact and no electrical connection. I haven't disconnected the other wires since for one I believe their most likely sender wires for the gauge and possibly have something to do with the limit switch under the cowl. I can't get to the end of the larger red wire which looks to go the back of the trim ram, my only option would be to cut it where it's exposed but that would mean having to re-splice it later and that splice is at the water line or darn close to it. I can't imagine it being anything that can dump fluid pressure.

The trim ram is rock solid when the motor is against it and at rest, in order to get the motor to set on that ram, I have to lower it in neutral to the trim ram. It will then sit on that ram just fine without retracting, it takes the motor to be on and in forward for it to drop.
It all makes no sense, there should be no way for the trim cylinder to move without power to the pump in either direction, yet it retracts when put in gear.
If it is the pump and valve body, that means I have two here that have the exact same problem or symptom since I've already tried the other used pump with no change. I have a third pump but that one has a bad motor and most likely hasn't seen fluid or any use in years, it's on a parts motor. It is the only one with the left side shock.
Once I get the motor off I'll get some pics of it. I took it over to my shop so I can swap out the motor for now. Either way, pretty much any part this might need will exceed the motors value. I've never been able to get much more than $250 for a running Force of this era. Too many people are afraid of them for just this type of reason. I have no real problem with Force motors in general but when they become problematic, it's usually cheaper to just hang another motor.
This motor also needs a set of coils since apparently I can't just replace the plug wires either, so that's another $300 or so plus what ever I find with the tilt and trim unit. Chances are, its going to become another parts motor. I would like to find the cause of this problem though for no other reason than my own curiosity.

 

[RRitt]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

That's definitely the attitude around here, and I find it's only the Merc dealers who convey that attitude. I have no problems finding OMC or other brand parts.
It certainly doesn't make me want to go back there when or if I ever do buy a new one.

Mercury engineers messed up the engine with ill-planned and ill-fated modifications in 1992-1995. By the time they figured out what went wrong they were too far behind the curve to catch up. So they blamed the basic engine rather than their own mistakes.

US Marine was a far better caretaker than Mercury. Wheras almost everything mercury did made the engine less reliable US Marine always made improvements. They introduced a larger water pump, split driveshaft, the black CDI modules, and a 2w trim sytem. All of which were significant improvements for larger engines. By contrast Mercury introced the self-destructing powerhead, the fly-apart stator, and a cheaper trim fluid that cut life of system by a third.

In short, it was easier for Mercury to bad mouth the engine than to admit their own mistakes.

 

[RRitt]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

post some pictures or post some links to a system that looks exactly like yours. You've been all over the board with descriptions, problems, and parts. It's time to start over from the basics. I can't help you if I don't know what you have.

 

[briguy2817]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

What year and HP are we talking? If pre-1991 then it's probably the check valve in pump. No rebuild kit that I know of. Generally speaking mercury's attitude is that you should buy one of their new engines instead of fixing your old one ... you may find a few parts through dealers but not enough to do a complete job.

It's an '87, 125 horse Force.

Like I said before, I do have access to seals and gaskets through some of the distributors that I deal with, I guess it's just a matter of matching the stuff up. I don't have any fear tearing it apart, just the fear of not finding the correct o-rings and check valves.

As far as replacing the motor with a new unit, Mercury can bite me. I am not spending that kind of money on an 20 year old boat right now.

 

[briguy2817]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

I'm not giving up on it, I just don't have the time to deal with it right now. I have a perfect motor that I can hang and get some use out of this boat for the rest of this season, I'll deal with the Force motor later.

I got you, I looked at you location and saw you were from Cape Coral, I guess you still have plenty of days left to use a boat.

It makes no sense to me either why the cylinder retracts without any contact and no electrical connection. I haven't disconnected the other wires since for one I believe their most likely sender wires for the gauge and possibly have something to do with the limit switch under the cowl. I can't get to the end of the larger red wire which looks to go the back of the trim ram, my only option would be to cut it where it's exposed but that would mean having to re-splice it later and that splice is at the water line or darn close to it. I can't imagine it being anything that can dump fluid pressure.

Maybe it has something to do with the "sender" wires? But, you stated in another post that you disconnected the micro switch at the throttle and it still retracted, right. If you do cut it, you can always solder it back together and double heatshrink it.

The trim ram is rock solid when the motor is against it and at rest, in order to get the motor to set on that ram, I have to lower it in neutral to the trim ram. It will then sit on that ram just fine without retracting, it takes the motor to be on and in forward for it to drop.
It all makes no sense, there should be no way for the trim cylinder to move without power to the pump in either direction, yet it retracts when put in gear.
If it is the pump and valve body, that means I have two here that have the exact same problem or symptom since I've already tried the other used pump with no change. I have a third pump but that one has a bad motor and most likely hasn't seen fluid or any use in years, it's on a parts motor. It is the only one with the left side shock.

What are the chances of having two different motors doing something that no one else has ever heard of?

Once I get the motor off I'll get some pics of it. I took it over to my shop so I can swap out the motor for now. Either way, pretty much any part this might need will exceed the motors value. I've never been able to get much more than $250 for a running Force of this era. Too many people are afraid of them for just this type of reason. I have no real problem with Force motors in general but when they become problematic, it's usually cheaper to just hang another motor.
This motor also needs a set of coils since apparently I can't just replace the plug wires either, so that's another $300 or so plus what ever I find with the tilt and trim unit. Chances are, its going to become another parts motor. I would like to find the cause of this problem though for no other reason than my own curiosity.

The one thing I do not like about the Force is the fact that you can't replace just one coil or wire. I haven't had to replace anything yet but when I do, I'll be lookng for an aftermarket substitute that will have separate coils and wires.

Brian

 

[RRitt]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

all of the o-rings are standard (SAE) sizes. Some of them are square rings but still of SAE sizing. All of them are also standard BUNA material. However, you would be wise to choose viton on check valves seats and it certainly wouldn't hurt to choose quad-rings on tilt pistons. The rod scrapers are going to be the most difficult item to match up. Since exposed to air & water they need to be made from ozone stable polyurethane.

If you expect you coils and modules will be failing soon then go ahead and buy a whole new ignition system with stator, trigger, coils, and cdi from Sea-way marine. In addition to being a regular partsdealer they also buy and sell manufacturer overstock/closeout. One of their current listings is complete ignition system for 3/4 cylinder forces for under $150 - even has a new mounting bracket.

 

[briguy2817]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

Thanks for the info. I think I'll start stripping it apart this weekend.

As far as the coils, I don't have any problems with the ignition yet, but we'll see in the spring.

Brian

 

[RRitt]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

Thanks for the info. I think I'll start stripping it apart this weekend.

As far as the coils, I don't have any problems with the ignition yet, but we'll see in the spring.

Brian

if you think that you might have problems then it would be wise to grab an ignition from sea-way. new cdi from dealer is about $400 each. new coils are about $90 each, and new stator is $400ish. They're selling complete new ignition systems for $125. If it fits then you save hundreds.

 

[MX5Jon]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

I'm not seeing this ignition deal after doing a google on sea-way. Do you have a link to this particular offer?

Thanks,
-Jon

 

[RRitt]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

www.sea-way.com

 

[MX5Jon]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

Thanks! Took a while to find - didn't realize that it was under "surplus parts".
I'll call them to double check that these will work for a 97 75hp ELPT.

-Jon

 

[briguy2817]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

all of the o-rings are standard (SAE) sizes. Some of them are square rings but still of SAE sizing. All of them are also standard BUNA material. However, you would be wise to choose viton on check valves seats and it certainly wouldn't hurt to choose quad-rings on tilt pistons. The rod scrapers are going to be the most difficult item to match up. Since exposed to air & water they need to be made from ozone stable polyurethane.

]


RRitt, I took the valve body apart and think I found my problem. The fliud was clear when I drained it but on top of the valve body was some dirty fluid. It looks like it's from normal wear and tear. I cleaned everything up and noticed a couple of small, minute particles that came out of the valve body itself. I believe these were preventing the check valves from closing all the way.

My question for you is, there are two different size springs the for check valves, does it matter which side they go on?( I know the answer is yes but...) Also, one side had 4 brass washers on it and the other had one, is this correct? I'm thinking it is because it levels both springs out. If you swap sides, one side is taller than the other.

One more thing, what weight hydraulic fluid do you suggest I put in. I have access to about 15 different weights of hydraulic fluid.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[RRitt]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

RRitt, I took the valve body apart and think I found my problem. The fliud was clear when I drained it but on top of the valve body was some dirty fluid. It looks like it's from normal wear and tear. I cleaned everything up and noticed a couple of small, minute particles that came out of the valve body itself. I believe these were preventing the check valves from closing all the way.

Probably not ... but it's worth a try.

My question for you is, there are two different size springs the for check valves, does it matter which side they go on?( I know the answer is yes but...) Also, one side had 4 brass washers on it and the other had one, is this correct? I'm thinking it is because it levels both springs out. If you swap sides, one side is taller than the other.

those aren't the check valves. Those are the pressure regulating valves. Short spring usually goes in the socket near the three thru-bolts. The washers are shims and that's how the pressure can be adjusted. The stack of washers goes in hole near three thru bolts. Just put it back togather with same springs & washers and you'll be okay.

But it will still bleed down because those valve don't have anything to do with bleed down. Bleed down is caused by the two valves that look like cylindrical plugs on bottom. Only use stainless steel when replacing cir-clips. If they rust and your slider piston pops out (and goes to bottom of lake) then the pump is almost worthless.

One more thing, what weight hydraulic fluid do you suggest I put in. I have access to about 15 different weights of hydraulic fluid.
Thanks,
Brian

Depends on year. Based on the fact that your pump has two springs of different sizes and four brass washers ... I would guess 1985. So best thing is standard ISO hydraulic oil like they would use in a tractor. ISO32??

If 1988 or later you wouldn't want to use this oil. Even though better for seals and parts it is too thin for the gear ratio used in 1988-1993.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

One Merc dealer told me to use automatic transmission fluid, Type F if I could find it. Another said I needed to buy Quicksilver tilt and trim fluid for $5 per pint.
I used ATF in my 1987 figuring that it would be the least likely to foam. The Quicksilver fluid looked like GM power steering fluid, clear and super thin. Much like tractor or hydrostatic trans fluid.

 

[briguy2817]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

One Merc dealer told me to use automatic transmission fluid, Type F if I could find it. Another said I needed to buy Quicksilver tilt and trim fluid for $5 per pint.
I used ATF in my 1987 figuring that it would be the least likely to foam. The Quicksilver fluid looked like GM power steering fluid, clear and super thin. Much like tractor or hydrostatic trans fluid.

I just double checked the owners manual and it said to use 20wt non detergent motor oil. If it's real cold, you can use ATF type "A". Guess I should have looked there first... Duh!

Brian

 

[briguy2817]

Re: '87 Force 125 tilt and/or trim?

Probably not ... but it's worth a try.




those aren't the check valves. Those are the pressure regulating valves. Short spring usually goes in the socket near the three thru-bolts. The washers are shims and that's how the pressure can be adjusted. The stack of washers goes in hole near three thru bolts. Just put it back togather with same springs & washers and you'll be okay.

But it will still bleed down because those valve don't have anything to do with bleed down. Bleed down is caused by the two valves that look like cylindrical plugs on bottom. Only use stainless steel when replacing cir-clips. If they rust and your slider piston pops out (and goes to bottom of lake) then the pump is almost worthless.



Depends on year. Based on the fact that your pump has two springs of different sizes and four brass washers ... I would guess 1985. So best thing is standard ISO hydraulic oil like they would use in a tractor. ISO32??

If 1988 or later you wouldn't want to use this oil. Even though better for seals and parts it is too thin for the gear ratio used in 1988-1993.

Thanks for all the information!!! I popped the valves out last night and will replace the o-rings today. I also found some diagrams on the valve body itself. Hopefully, if I get it complete today, I'll update you on the progress.

Oh, and the owners manual said to use 20 wt motor oil for the trim fluid. ATF type "A" if it's going to be used in real cold weather.

Brian