87 octane ??

jal

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
76
Living above 6,000 feet, regular gas is 85 octane and mid grade is considered to be 87 octane. I have always used the 85 octane in both truck and 90 hp outboard. The motor is used at elevations between 5000 and 9000 feet.
Does anyone feel that the 87 octane would be beneficial or needed?
Thanks,
John
 

dono16

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
76
Re: 87 octane ??

Nope, you wont notice any difference, except in your wallet.
 

Hashi

Chief Petty Officer
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Sep 19, 2007
Messages
502
Re: 87 octane ??

I'd try both and if you don't notice any difference, stay with the cheaper fuel. You'll have more carbon build-up with 85, though. Depending on how much you go boating, just run a bottle or two of fuel cleaner once in a while and you'll be okay.
 

walleyehed

Admiral
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Jun 29, 2003
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6,767
Re: 87 octane ??

I live at 3600ft...we have 87-91...we don't need anymore oct. at this elevation. The higher the altitude, the less Octane is required...the reason Denver, Co has 85-89. 85 is the main fuel used at 5280ft....and is fine in your outboard above 6000ft.
 

Nandy

Commander
Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Messages
2,145
Re: 87 octane ??

I never seen any difference in my 2 stroke using the high octane gas. The difference is less than 2 dollars between the two when I am done filling the 2 tanks...
 

walleyehed

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6,767
Re: 87 octane ??

The difference is in combustion temps (higher with higher oct) and deposits left behind...higher the octane the longer it burns....high octane is still burning when the piston drops below the ports on a 2-stroke, so a slight loss of power is 1 disadvantage that would (does) lead to lower economy.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: 87 octane ??

I think there are some misconceptions here.

Octane is a rating that determines the length of the fuel burn or it's resistance to explosion within the combustion chamber. The higher the octane, the slower the burn.

Low octane fuels burn faster, thus you can get a "pinging" in the engine. The pinging used to be a sign of "cheap" gas.

Most of todays automotive engines have knock "ping" sensors and back off timing and performance to allow the fuel to be used with diminished performance.

Straight 2-stroke outboards do not have that technology. However, performance of natuarally aspirated 2-stroke outboards at high altitudes is already diminished. Thus, they (theorectically) would not need the extra octane.

Most of the engines out there call for 87 octane. Personally, that's what I'd use. That's just my opinion but I don't boat at high altitudes.

Giving an engine too much octane leads to harmful deposits that can be very detrimental.
 

scoutabout

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Oct 14, 2006
Messages
1,568
Re: 87 octane ??

Thanks to the spectacular greed of the oil companies, octane is poorly understood. You'll see those signs at the pump that imply the high octane gas is going to get you better performance in any car. Sunoco here in Canada is particularly committed to spreading such bs.

The compression ratio of your engine is gonig to dictate octane requirements. Pouring high octane gas in a motor that doesn't have high compression is just a waste of money...and the oil companies wouldn't have it any other way...

Granted, here at 500 feet ASL - I have zero experience with the effects of altitude on combustion.
 

walleyehed

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6,767
Re: 87 octane ??

DJ and I are on the same page here and maybe I should have said the higher octane burns "slower" insted of "Longer", but the intent was the same....
87 will be OK at 5000-6000ft, but I'd go to 85 above that. You shouldn't have any problems though.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: 87 octane ??

Thanks to the spectacular greed of the oil companies, octane is poorly understood. You'll see those signs at the pump that imply the high octane gas is going to get you better performance in any car. Sunoco here in Canada is particularly committed to spreading such bs.

The compression ratio of your engine is gonig to dictate octane requirements. Pouring high octane gas in a motor that doesn't have high compression is just a waste of money...and the oil companies wouldn't have it any other way...

Granted, here at 500 feet ASL - I have zero experience with the effects of altitude on combustion.

I completely disagree with your first sentence. The market is what the market is. There is a lot more to the entire price issue than what is MIS-reported.

However, the rest of the message is correct.
 

Boatist

Rear Admiral
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Apr 22, 2002
Messages
4,552
Re: 87 octane ??

Higher octane does not burn slower. It just will not self ignite until it gets to a higher compression or higher heat. This is to prevent it from pre ignition in high compression engines. If it actually burned slower then Nascar could not use 130 octane in a engine that turns 9000 rpms.

At high elevations the air is thinner and that means lower compression and less chance of pre ignition. It also means less power output. At high elevations a smaller carburator jet will bring the fuel air mixture back to the proper mix. In some cases a lower pitch prop may be needed to reach the WOT rpms.

The motor needs less octane at higher elevations.

One consern I have is I have not seen 85 octane execpt E85 Ethanol. If your talking Ethanol then do not use it in your outboard as most outboards are not ready for it. It very hard on rubber hoses and burns much different.

Most of the outboards I have seen do call for 87 octane. If it is a plane carbrated engine and does not have a knock sensor to reduce the timing then, if the engine does not ping no need to go to a higher octane. If it does ping at max power and rpms then it does need a higher octane.
 

walleyehed

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6,767
Re: 87 octane ??

In the winter months, we have 85 octane right here in western Kansas...
west on I-70 it's about 165mi to Denver from here...our distributor for Johnson outboards resided in Denver. Mass production is for 1500ft or less in the outboard community. Few have spent the time and effort at regaining some HP such as my father and McCune's Racing did. They have always ran 85 and sometimes 87 in most all of their outboards of personal use until the infamous ficht evolved.
I have never had an understanding of how hard it really is to portray one's experience on a PC until the last year or so.....it's frustrating to me, yet nobody's fault.
We even ran 2 of the prototype ETECS at lake Dillon at 9100ft on the only fuel there...85 octane....we ran them on Horsetooth at 5000ft on 85 oct. It's just a matter of very few people having to set up outboards at high elevations. we've been doing this for over 35 years now...we've found what works and what doesn't.

Another note...higher octane DOES burn slower...we've proven that in our radial aircraft engines that were made to be run on 80 octane/87 octane auto...when these engines had to start using 100LL or the previous 100/130, nothing has ever changed with mag timing or valve lash, yet these engines last about half the life they did if they were run on 80/87.
When flying behind a radial at night, it was not uncommon to see a foot or so of solid flame...with 80/87. With no changes in timing, at night, the flame stream is now around 2-3ft. It DOES burn slower.
We replace valves all the time because they are torched...even with lube in the fuel...it's not a "dry" problem it's a Burn-time problem. Pratt&Whitney, piezetel, Wright, Jacobs...they all had/have service B's out on this and have since 100LL came out.
 

dave11

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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Dec 2, 2007
Messages
1,195
Re: 87 octane ??

I have a new four stroke Yamaha. The manual states that it requires 89 octane gas.
 

walleyehed

Admiral
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
6,767
Re: 87 octane ??

It's also designed to run below 1500ft elevation, and it's likely an EFI.
It handles the change better than a 2-stroke, but does not require 89 at the altitude we're talking about.
 

scoutabout

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Oct 14, 2006
Messages
1,568
Re: 87 octane ??

I completely disagree with your first sentence. The market is what the market is. There is a lot more to the entire price issue than what is MIS-reported.

However, the rest of the message is correct.

I don't follow your comment about price DJ -- but I'm pretty sure the notion that "the market is what the market is" would get some funny looks in the marketing department of just about any for-profit entity.

The market is what you can make it and if the oil companies can get you to cough up another ten cents per litre, even if it gains you as the consumer zero, I believe they will still pursue that goal.

Sunoco's advertising is blatantly false on the octane issue. It doesn't say "Check your owner's manual -- maybe you should be running Premium" or "Talk to your dealer. Maybe you should be running Premium" or "Supercharged? Turbocharged? High compression engine? Make sure you're getting the most out of your performance vehicle and run Premium."

Nope -- just "Boost Performance with Sunoco's Gold 94 Octane"

Other companies are guilty of similar advertising blasphemy - just not as blatant. Sunoco are the only ones that carry 94 octane in my part of Canada and they push it big time even when 98 percent of the vehicles on the road don't require anything more than plain old regular gas.

That seems like a pretty small market left considering 25% of their pump capacity in any given station is dedicated to high octane premium. That's a lot of added infrastructure to pay for and specialty fuel to ship across a very large country. Don't make sense unless your plan is to agressively pursue increasing demand for that particular product.

Aside from the indignity of having someone lie to you while you are doing business with them, it also perpetuates the well-entrenched misconception that high octane gets you higher performance as opposed to the reality that higher performance may be dependent on higher octane. Two very different things.

Sorry for the rant but it's an issue that's been a bee in my bimini for a long time :D
 

jal

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
76
Re: 87 octane ??

Gentlemen, thank you. I have learned more about octane than I thought possible. I do know that my son in law runs 89 octane in his 200 Yammi and does have some fuel problems. I have run 85 octane 99% of the time in a 90 hp Johnson and have no fuel related problems (that I know of), although I use the next hotter plug (ql86c) rather than the ql82c because I am trolling the majority of time I spend on the water.
 

Frank Acampora

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Jan 19, 2007
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12,004
Re: 87 octane ??

Just to add my 2c.

All gasoline is a MIXTURE of various length short and long chain hydrocarbons. This means the backbone of the chain is Carbon atoms linked together like a pearl necklace and they are surrounded by Hydrogen atoms. Shorter chain hydrocarbons are usually more volatile than longer chain molecules. This means they vaporize easier and quicker. However, volatility and flash point varies with each specific molecule and is not necessarily linear.

The refinery tailors the mix between shorter chain and longer chain molecules depending upon the areas of the country and the weather where it will be used. So, for example, here on the Northeast coast, there are more short chain hydrocarbons in the mix during the winter for easier starting and smoother warm-up. The refinery also tailors the mix so the Octane rating is constant. Shorter chain hydrocarbons have less carbon and produce less BTU - British Thermal Units - per pound, so would produce slightly less power, only, because the air is colder and denser, it is offset and you don't notice any power loss--indeed, the colder air charge may produce slightly more power. (near sea level)

Ever notice how your car seems to run better during a Summer rainstorm? The rain cools the air, the increased humidity smooths and slows the burn, and the extra humidity generates more steam for a higher mean pressure. Net effect? Slightly more horsepower and smoother operation. But only if you are an astute driver who can recognize the subtle difference.

Now--way back when God was deciding where to put the dirt, the SAE --Society Of Automotive Engineers-- arbitrarily decided to set the octane rating of N OCTANE (Normal Octane--oct= 8 carbon atoms --and 18 hydrogen atoms in a molecule) to a round figure--100
--Methane, Ethane, Butane, Propane, Pentane, Hexane, Heptane, Octane, etc, on up to 100s of carbons. I believe that they start becoming liquids with Pentane.

Back then, they didn't have computers or sophisticated equipment, so they used a variable compression engine to measure the point at which a given fuel started to pre-ignite. Comparing the compression ratio to the compression ratio of Octane gave an octane rating. So, the octane rating is a measure of how well a given fuel compares to Octane in regards to pre-ignition or resistance to "knock" only. Simplisticly speaking, it has nothing to do with power.

87 octane gasoline has 87% of the resistance to "knock" as Octane and will run quite well in an engine of 9 to 1 compression ratio. Above 10 to 1 higher octane fuel is required. In new engines the computer regulates fuel injectors, timing, and sometimes valve opening , so slightly higher compression ratios can be tolerated with 87 octane fuel.

High octane fuels tend to have a slower flame front propagation and pressure rise within the cylinder is slower. Peak pressures are not quite as high so temperature is not quite as high and will not "diesel" or auto ignite. High octane rated fuels are more difficult and expensive to refine though and you get less of them from a barrel of crude oil.

Now, even though the flame front is slower and pressure not quite as high, an engine REQUIRING high octane rated fuel (automotive, not aircraft) will have a higher compression ratio. This shifts the BMEP (Base Mean Effective Pressure) upward on the horsepower graph and the engine produces more horsepower.

Some piston engine aircraft require high octane because after take-off, a supercharger is engaged, and of course, supercharging increases the volume packed into the cylinder and effectively raises the compression ratio. Coupled with the fact that a nine inch diameter piston having two opposing spark plugs will have two flame fronts colliding, aviation fuel must be premium quality. This is one reason why jet engines came to dominate commercial aviation--fuel is much cheaper. --and jets are WAY more efficient at high altitudes--but that's another story.
 

scoutabout

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Oct 14, 2006
Messages
1,568
Re: 87 octane ??

That's some great insight into octane, Frank -- thanks. I definitely learned a thing or two from that.

For bonus marks (and to thoroughly highjack poor jal's thread), can you name a type of automotive engine that, although supercharged, actually has a realtively low compression ratio? :D
 
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