A cops actions you should have been talking about

rodbolt

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

its very sad.<br /> for both sides and the others involved.<br /> but by just the video I cannot comment much. same as I have no comment on the erstwhile(sp) case.<br /> not enough facts are known and sometimes a video gives to narrow a picture.<br /> I hope the airman survives ok both mentaly and physically, I hope the cop does the same.<br /><br /> thats why the marine instructors we had were so adamant about letting adrenilin pull the trigger instead of the brain.<br /> in a situation you have a second or two to see,think, react. armchair lawyers will study the case for years.<br /> but adrenalin seriously affects good judgement yet can keep you alive.<br /> its a tough call.<br /> while I never had to face actuall bullets we did extensive training in both terrorist and terrorist with hostages training with paintball guns inside ship hulls.<br />from experience I can tell you its very easy to shoot the wrong one.
 

Terry Olson

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

I agree that you can't draw conclusions from only the video. In some of the news coverage they captioned the audio and it seemed that the officer told the suspect to get up - but the audio was poor and the time or two that I saw it I'm not sure that's what he was saying. It doesn't make sense though - we train to cuff on the ground, not let a suspect get up to either fight or run. That's why we order people to the ground to begin with. It's a much stronger position of advantage and control. <br /><br />Still too much is unknown to speculate. It's not what the facts turn out to be with the benefit of hindsight and time but rather what the officer reasonably believed at the moment and whether that belief would justify his actions.<br /><br />As an example, you stop an armed robbery suspect. Instead of complying with commands he gets out of his car, walks toward you and reaches behind him. What would a reasonable person infer from these circumstances - does this guy pose a threat to the officer? Suppose the officer shoots that suspect and it later turns out that he wasn't the robber, he is hearing impaired, and he was reaching for his billfold to give the officer his identification. When all is said and done clearly the guy didn't need to be shot - but you can't ask the officer to have read the future to know this. Instead, they have to act based on what they reasonably believed at the moment. <br /><br />This is where it gets ugly - maybe he shot the guy with no justification whatsoever, or maybe he had a good reason - we just don't have enough information to know what the officer's perception was at that moment. <br /><br />With that said - it sure doesn't look good.
 

rodbolt

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

Terry<br /> thats why they trained us to secure ALL parties involved. period.<br /> even hostages got rolled and cuffed until it was over.<br /> seems its possible the officer lost control of the situation.<br /> but we were also trained not to shoot on the suspicion he MAY have a gun. usually you will be wrong.<br />you cannot pop caps on a suspicion, the rules of deadly force are very specific on this and if your suspicion is wrong odds are the sentance will be a long one.
 

magster65

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

I guess I'll never see the stupid video... it won't load still from either link :(
 

flips

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

Hey Mag KTLA works but takes awhile click on col on right side list.<br />Maybe cop shot, so he didnt have to tell him to get down again :eek: Its a bit of a worry but
 

magster65

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

It loaded this time. It's a busy link I bet... anyways...<br />How ridiculous is that? The video speaks for itself. <br />So what do you call shooting an unarmed man 3 times, who's lying on the ground, obeying your instructions? Hmm. I know the cops have stressful working conditions at times but this is completely out of the 'benefit of the doubt' range. This was a serious crime no matter how pumped up or confused the officer was. He fired 3 times at point blank, not just once. His intentions were clear.<br />Glad to hear the Elio fella' is ok.
 

rodbolt

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

magster65<br /> kinda my first opinion. the investigation will tell. last nights news said the victim was doing well.<br /> if the cop was wrong will the airforce sue the cop and the town for damages?<br />but my vote if the cop was wrong and it actually happened like the video shows is a 20 year stretch in the big house.<br /> maybe then he can get some stress counseling.
 

ob

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

I can draw no conclusions from this fuzzy video.Maybe some of you have a better view than my screen.Does anyone know whether the guy appeared to the officer to be reaching for a weapon or making any other threatening gestures.The cop may have profiled the guy as a gang member and from past experience was just trigger twitchy.Tough call on this one. The guy and his friend look and talk like gang bangers on first impression.<br /><br />On another note ,I'm wondering what the percentage comparisons are of police shot or injured by citizen verses citizens shot or injured by police.I'd only be interested in stats not view points.
 

magster65

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

Originally posted by ob:<br /> The guy and his friend look and talk like gang bangers on first impression.
Why does he look and sound like a gang member to you?
 

ob

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

Originally posted by magster65:<br />
Originally posted by ob:<br /> The guy and his friend look and talk like gang bangers on first impression.
Why does he look and sound like a gang member to you?
If I thought I could win your support for my post I would attempt to explain.Otherwise you'll need to change baits.<br /><br />Edit post:OK,Here goes,Because of his clothing choice,backwards hat ,and his buddies demeanor.If you don't want to be judged as certain groups,probably not wise to look like them.Not advovating the cops actions ,just voicing my take just like you and everyone else.<br /><br />See ,I told you you wouldn't agree. :p
 

deputydawg

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

Still won't load for me.<br /><br />Without seeing the video I have no opinion as to what happened. I can say that for the cops sake, this video should NEVER have been released and the press is showing no sense of responsibility showing it. They have the story without. The reason I say this is because the officer is being deprived of due process. For the record I feel the same way when the bad guy gets splashed all over the media on video. How can an impartial jury be found now? Especially when the majority of the people seeing this video jump to conslusions. We will never know what the officer thought he saw, or what he was thinking. Maybe he was acting out of anger at being questioned. If so he deserves more punishment than he will ever get. In this case the agency he works for will dump the lawsuit onto him as sole responsibility. If it was an accident then the training in that agency needs to be seriously evaluated. <br /><br />Maybe the victim did make him angry, he is a professional and should know it is not personal and to take things lightly. Ig they did look and act like gang members that is no excuse at all. I have stopped hundreds of young men wearin colors, showing signs, showing tattoos, even a few who openly admit to gang affiliation. This does not in any way mean they are going to do anything violent. If I stop a car load of gang bangers I will get them out of the car and identify them and their tattoos etc. This is the wya the game is played and they know it. I have in fact stopped a car load of gang bangers once who were upset that I didn't get them out and check them. Where I came from it was a status symbol for them. In most cases this was a mutual respect for our each others space. When I passed they would throw up a sign, I would act like I didn't see them. I would contact them they would act tough but in their own way respectful. So if the officer was in fear of the gang appearance (if this would be a defense) then he should be working somewhere else. Fear will save your life or it could kill you depending on how you react to it. <br /><br />I will keep trying the video to see what it looks like. I still feel bad for the officer even if he is guilty. Any other suspect having a video of his crime displayed for the public would have grounds for a lawsuit and possibly even grounds for a dismissal at trial.
 

rodbolt

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

ob<br /> ya cannot pop a cap just cause someone MAY have a gun.<br /> its not how the game is played.<br /> in one training scene I was in a space hunting a terrorist(instrutor) he popped out unarmed and approched, I popped him in the chest with a nice yellow paint ball. in the class room court I went to levenworth for 15 years for involuntary manslaughter.<br /> in that particular instance and that particular space the use of deadly force was not an option. I should have retreated,de-escalated the situation, secured the space and waited.<br /> but it all took 3 seconds to do.<br />had it been real the actual inquiry would have set a second class petty officer in the big house.<br /> the training scenario was based on an actual case.<br />bullets are completely irretrivable and without conscience. <br /> to many cops in my area watch to many cop shows.<br />but the rules of engagemnt are not in the enforcers favor so they have to rely on training.<br /> some are better than others.<br />when I started my security force training in the USN there had been 33 cases of deadly force used, 30 of the users were found guilty of manslaughter.<br /> I was lucky that the 2 USNC gunny's that were training us were ruthless in the training and tried to keep us from going brain dead.<br />but let me tell ya there aint nothing the gunny's like better than a squid under their command.<br />my motto was: while a marine may not be able to spell marine, thank god they are on our side :) <br /> they are some serious gungho sons o beaches.
 

ob

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> ob<br /> ya cannot pop a cap just cause someone MAY have a gun.<br /> its not how the game is played.
Did I infer that the cop had the right to pop a cap because the guy MAY have had a gun?? :confused: I don't think so.What I said was that ,the video is fuzzy and you don't know what prompted the cop to fire his weapon.I also mentioned that maybe the cop(not me) thought this guy (may) have looked like a gang banger and felt threatened for whatever reason.I wasn't expecting my post to be disected in small bits and pieces,taken completely out of context,and then given a lesson in proper police procedures. But ,then again ,maybe I should have expected it.I swear,some of you guys seem to thrive on conflict.I wonder why. :rolleyes:
 

magster65

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

Originally posted by ob:<br />
Originally posted by magster65:<br />
Originally posted by ob:<br /> The guy and his friend look and talk like gang bangers on first impression.
Why does he look and sound like a gang member to you?
If I thought I could win your support for my post I would attempt to explain.Otherwise you'll need to change baits.<br /><br />Edit post:OK,Here goes,Because of his clothing choice,backwards hat ,and his buddies demeanor.If you don't want to be judged as certain groups,probably not wise to look like them.Not advovating the cops actions ,just voicing my take just like you and everyone else.<br /><br />See ,I told you you wouldn't agree. :p
K... wait... I just meant that every picture I saw online of this guy didn't look like a gangster. A country military man... that has references to boot. He looked ok to me. I wear my cap backwards, Harley shirts, baggy jeans... hell, I even swear on occasion. I just don't get it... sorry.<br />I think that minorities are at a disadvantage when it comes to first impressions in some areas too. <br />Either way I respect your opinion ob... no worries.
 

rodbolt

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

ob<br /> ya cannot base a decision on fire or not based on what the suspect is wearing.<br />odds are if you pull the trigger your wrong.<br /> thats why the MP's spend so much time training, dont know about the civilian side much.<br /> I agree with you on the video, its to fuzzy and to narrowly focused to give the full picture. thats why I reserve judgement on either one.<br />its a bad gig but someone has to do it, but in a situation you will have less than 5 seconds to make a decision and the lawyers will have years.<br />sometimes its not right but it is what it is, if it were not we could be nazi's or something.<br />if the cop was scared or nervous he should have held both on the ground and waited for backup. <br />I understand fear and adrenalin, however if either is allowed to pull the trigger odds are your wrong, thats a stone fact.
 

rodbolt

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

ob<br /> ya cannot base a decision on fire or not based on what the suspect is wearing.<br />odds are if you pull the trigger your wrong.<br /> thats why the MP's spend so much time training, dont know about the civilian side much.<br /> I agree with you on the video, its to fuzzy and to narrowly focused to give the full picture. thats why I reserve judgement on either one.<br />its a bad gig but someone has to do it, but in a situation you will have less than 5 seconds to make a decision and the lawyers will have years.<br />sometimes its not right but it is what it is, if it were not we could be nazi's or something.<br />if the cop was scared or nervous he should have held both on the ground and waited for backup. <br />I understand fear and adrenalin, however if either is allowed to pull the trigger odds are your wrong, thats a stone fact.
 

rodbolt

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

ob<br /> ya cannot base a decision on fire or not based on what the suspect is wearing.<br />odds are if you pull the trigger your wrong.<br /> thats why the MP's spend so much time training, dont know about the civilian side much.<br /> I agree with you on the video, its to fuzzy and to narrowly focused to give the full picture. thats why I reserve judgement on either one.<br />its a bad gig but someone has to do it, but in a situation you will have less than 5 seconds to make a decision and the lawyers will have years.<br />sometimes its not right but it is what it is, if it were not we could be nazi's or something.<br />if the cop was scared or nervous he should have held both on the ground and waited for backup. <br />I understand fear and adrenalin, however if either is allowed to pull the trigger odds are your wrong, thats a stone fact.
 

ob

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> ob<br /> ya cannot base a decision on fire or not based on what the suspect is wearing.
I'll try this but once more.I didn't say or infer that he should or should not base firing on what the guy was wearing.What I said was that if the guy looked and dressed like a gang banger and was making threatening jestures that this may have prompted the cop(not me) to get trigger itchy.The video on my end is way to vague to see what the cop saw or thought he saw.Period.I don't know enough and neither does anyone yet to claim that the cop was dead wrong in firing his weapon.I also don't know what the cop or the citizen will testify to.We'll just have to wait and see.
 

magster65

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

Well... the video was clear enough to hear the cop tell him to get up, he starts to slowly and he shoots him. 3... count 'em 3 times and there was no reason for it. Fuzzy... the video, a bit, but the cops thinking... definately not clear! Let's face it, if that cop is a white guy and he's found not at fault... can you say Rodney King x 2? I sure friggin' hope not but... watch out!!!
 

deputydawg

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Re: A cops actions you should have been talking about

One thing I keep reading here and in the news. Everyone says the officer ordered him to get up before he shot, and there was not enough time to grab a weapon. How long does it take? One can not judge this by what was said. In our training it is drilled into us to yell out "drop the weapon" or something so it is caught on tape that there is believed to be a weapon. I of course have stories to illustrate my point. One night I entered a trailer house after a break in. I found 2 teenagers that had broke into the house. I ordered them on the floor at gunpoint. It looked like they were a couple of kids unarmed, so I ordered one to get up. When he did one had a knife on the floor under his body. As he got up his hand swept toward the knife. He was lucky my seargent was behind him in the doorway and disarmed him before he got off of the floor, but in the span of less than 2 seconds he could have had the knife and been on me. I think in a grainy video the knife would have been un-seen. Of course the press tells the popular story which is always wrong doing on the cops part. Cops acting correctly does not sell as well. That and the fact that the victim was in the military is designed to work against the cop. If it were some hood rat would they describe him as a wellfare recipient, unemployed and high on dope? <br /><br />2 years ago my old room mate in the acedemy shot a man after a domestic assault case. The man was running away when he was shot and injured. The officer was first accused of illegally shooting the man. The video tape did not show much to help him. He claimed that he thought the suspect had a gun so he fired. The video looked like he was running away with his arms swinging out to his sides. The video was kept as evidence and not released to anyone but the investigating authority. When the video was sent to the lab for enhancement the truth came out. The enhances video showed something in his hand that looked like a gun. Turned out it wasn't a gun, but looked like one even to the grand jury watching the video. The suspect who first was living high off of the idea that he was empty handed running away admitted he was carrying something. As he was running he turned toward the officer for a second. Looked like he was turning to point the gun at the officer. <br /><br />The point being that one can't go by the officer saying get up then firing. Just because he ordered the victim up then opened fire, this doesn't mean the victim did not appear to be armed. The press is showing one side of the story, the popular side. The public feeds off of corruption and the idea that teh cop was wrong. If this were clearly justified it would appear on page 2 as cops slays armed military officer after high speed chase or something. <br /><br />I still maintain that when all of the facts are in, if it shows the officer was acting in the wrong then should be dealt with severly. If it shows the officer was acting in what he believed to be self defense then he should recieve a public appology from the press. If it shows an accident then the department should have their training reviewed and the officer should be reprimanded and dealt with according to law. <br /><br />As a parting thought during my training both in firearms and in supervision training we studied officer involved shootings from past cases. Studies show that of all of the officer involved shootings where officers are wounded or killed, most are due to officers hesitating. Another friend I worked with was shot 2 times before he drew and killed the suspect. He lived through it. The reason he did not fire sooner was becuase his first thought was to question himself. He was shot and hit once, drew his weapon, hesitated until he was shot a second time. Then he fired twice killing the suspect. He was afraid to shoot knowing that his actions could ruin his life after the shooting was picked apart by lawyers, citizens, and the grand jury. <br /><br />Has anyone ever thought to ask why they ran from the police in the first place?
 
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