All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

[system-f]

Okay, so I am preparing for my rebuild this winter and have been reading every 16-19ft glass rebuild on this forum I can. I understand what the pros and cons of epoxy vs. poly and yes Chrishayes, I know you will say to use poly which is what I am leaning towards. The big question I have to prepare financially for what my 'black hole' will require is HOW MUCH? I am figuring on 15 gallons for the transom, 3 stringers, and deck? Is this about right? Any issues with US Composites? Also, since I am probably going poly I was thinking of getting a gallon of epoxy to use between the transom layers, but nowhere else. I have read that some people use PL and no matter what I do it will be better than stock (no glass on the inside of the transom, just paint.

I am also completely stuck on splitting the hull or not? I have a closed bow with gas tank underneath and I want to replace it as well as build in some front battery storage, and front ballast tanks, but this boat must be on the water May 2010 and I will be starting mid October. I have already seen a rebuild on classic Glastrons forum and I do not have to split the hull for the floor, stringer, transom. If you need pictures of the boat please see this post: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=335793


Thanks again for the help.

Cliff Notes: some questions not yet answered

1. Epoxy Vs. Poly (system-f)
2. How much resin for a 17ft runabout? (System-f)
3. US Composites OK? (System-f)
4. What exactly is the right prep.? To acetone or not to acetone? (adamjr)
5. What can go directly on wood, cloth? CSM? Biaxle? (System-f)
6. Water on fresh glass? ( Redfury)

Epoxy Vs. Poly
Epoxy is too expensive. (Drewpster)
Poly adhesion problems can be handled with proper prep. (Drewpster)
Poly requires extra personal protection, tyvek suit, respirator, keep it warm in winter. (Chrishayes)
Poly will work just fine as long as you prep. Properly (Chrishayes)
Don?t worry too much about resin type just DO NOT mix types (Bronc Rider)
epoxy is suppose to be stronger then poly. Also, epoxy is a little forgiving for a beginner however, terrible when wetting out matt.(Bigredinohio)

Amount of Resin
15-20 gallons (drewpster)
Maybe only 12 gallons (Chrishayes)


Us Composites
Great company! (Chrishayes)

What exactly is the right prep?
Grinding and follow up with a broom then clean with acetone (Bronc Rider)
Must use acetone, is cheap and good insurance for a clean surface (Chrishayes)
Proper grinding to good glass is key. (Chrishayes)
Acetone is an ionic bridge and can help carry resin deeper into the surface being bonded. (jonesg)
Must get to clean glass, must clean with acetone. (redfury)
Not enough grinding = no good bond, too much and you are through the hull (Chrishayes)
Acetone is not necessary because you should have ground off all of the contaminated layers (Bronc Rider)
You need clean glass before you can lay up. (Bronc Rider)
Can tell a difference in surface cleanliness when using acetone (Chrishayes)
It is not wrong to use Acetone, just not necessary all of the time and cause problems if it doesn?t evaporate completely. (Bronc Rider)
Grinding fiberglass sucks (everyone)
Acetone no good because you are just spreading around the mess and it leaves a thin film (ondarvr)
Acetone causing tac in old glass can be bad, this also weakens the area (Bronc Rider)

What can go directly on wood, cloth? CSM? 1708? (System-f)
unanswered

Water on fresh glass?
It depends on the state of cure when the water came in contact with it. A firm laminate will have a slight amount of the resin on the surface turn white from the water. A soft (uncured) laminate will let the water penetrate deeper, the softer it is, the deeper the water will go. In all cases the contaminated resin (white) will need to be removed if more glass is going to be applied over it. If the laminate was cured and there was a slight amount of discoloration on the surface and you don't need to glass over it, then there is no problem, just leave it as is.


Grinding a Boat Equipment and Information
Safety
Respirator ? a real one, the 3m with pink filters
Goggles ? covers the entire face, not safety glasses
Ear plugs or muffs
Tyvec suit
Rubber gloves
Masking tape ? to tape cuffs to gloves.
Tools
Heavy duty Grinder
4 ?? Grinder
Straight die grinder or rotozip

 

[drewpster]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

The cost of epoxy negates its use for restoration projects in my opinion. Even the cheap epoxy products run the cost higher than I would spend on an old boat. Might as well buy a new one. The adhesion problems you have with polyester resin can be managed with proper preparation. Why use it between layers? You could actually be doing more harm than good given that poly does not bond well to epoxy. Use poly for the whole thing, it will still outlast you.
The cardinal rule for resin is: Buy more than you think you will need. My tri-hull has taken 20 gallons so far. I may need two or three to finish it. A 16-19 foot with all new cores? 15 - 20 gallons should do it.
Splitting the boat (ie, removing the cap) is a matter of access. If you need to get to a particular section covered by the cap, it needs to come off. IN my opinion a proper job always takes complete disassembly.
The amount of time you take is a function of time and money. If you have everything there, and the know-how to get it done, 8 months should be plenty of time. The reality is that most of us do not have the money, and time must be made to work on the boat.

Good luck, the result will be worth it.

enjoy drewp

 

[chrishayes]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

The cost of epoxy negates its use for restoration projects in my opinion. Even the cheap epoxy products run the cost higher than I would spend on an old boat. Might as well buy a new one. The adhesion problems you have with polyester resin can be managed with proper preparation. Why use it between layers? You could actually be doing more harm than good given that poly does not bond well to epoxy. Use poly for the whole thing, it will still outlast you.
The cardinal rule for resin is: Buy more than you think you will need. My tri-hull has taken 20 gallons so far. I may need two or three to finish it. A 16-19 foot with all new cores? 15 - 20 gallons should do it.
Splitting the boat (ie, removing the cap) is a matter of access. If you need to get to a particular section covered by the cap, it needs to come off. IN my opinion a proper job always takes complete disassembly.
The amount of time you take is a function of time and money. If you have everything there, and the know-how to get it done, 8 months should be plenty of time. The reality is that most of us do not have the money, and time must be made to work on the boat.

Good luck, the result will be worth it.

enjoy drewp

100% agree with above aside from getting more resin than you think you will need...the stuff has a shelf life so if you buy 20 gallons How long will it take you to use it? I was amazed at just how little resin it takes to do the bulk of the work. I only used 6 gallons of epoxy on my understructure and if you have seen my thread you know that I did a LOT of glassing and precoating. I also agree that there would be no need to use epoxy to bond your transom. Lots of folks do it here with csm and poly and I havent heard a single horror story.

Bottom line is that I have seen your work, and you know my philosophy about why I would now reccomend poly, you WILL prep right and measure right. SO there is no need for the epoxy. I wish I wouldve known that. Just keep in mind that you will need to protect yourself much more from the poly. Can you ventilate your workspace over the winter at the same time keeping it warm and stable enough to use poly? Do you mind working and SWEATING in a tyvek suit and respirator for every glass session? Only you can answer that.

If I were you I would order from uscomposites. Great company! I would get a 5 gal jug and hardner to start then when that one gets to 1/3 empty order another. That should get you plenty enough time to not be waiting on a shipment to proceed. This will also ensure a fresh batch. Just keep in mind that you will use more resin due to the csm layer that has to be laid before and after each layer of cloth.

Bottom line, a boat such as yours(and mine) is just not in need of supierior products. Poly will do the job quite well as long as your prep and safety standards are upheld. I just ordered another 3 gallons of epoxy to finish mine off so that will be a total of 10 gallons used. I would think the extra resin used by csm and a slightly larger boat would put you in the 15 gallon range depending on how many layers and how much precoating you do. GL!

 

[adamjr]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

So in your reference to doing the propper prepping work what exactly is involved in that. I hear that mantra and I agree with it fully but what exactly is just the right prep?

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

The correct prep involves grinding and a follow up with a broom and cleaning with acetone (optional if you get it clean with a broom).
There is no need to put too much thought as to what resin to use. The most important part is just to not mix them when laying up. Resin does have a shelf life, but it?s not as short as some think. Eight months on the shelf is nothing, it?s still good. I work for a company that deals with emergency response in the chemical plants. We regularly patch tanks that are leaking (fiberglass and metal). We stop the leak and then all we do is grind the area we are going to repair and put a coat of resin on it (no acetone unless there was a chemical contamination). Then we lay up the glass and call it good. Some of these plants tell us the patch only has to last a few weeks and then they will shut down the unit to replace the whole tank. Some of these patches are 9 years old and still holding back muriatic acid with no issues (some are to cheap to replace something that still works). Most of the time we have no idea what type of resin the tank was made of so we just use whatever type of resin that can withstand the chemical the tank stores (there are more resin types than just the ones used for boats).
BTW, the poster that suggested not putting an epoxy layer between the vinyl is right, those two will not bond well to each other.

 

[chrishayes]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

I personally would not accept just a broom job. Acetone is not that expensive and I am often amazed at how much junk the towel I am using with acetone has on it once it was "cleaned" before. Proper grinding is the key though. You really need to be in "fresh" glass which means you shouldnt see any abnormally colored areas and it should almost look new.

 

[jonesg]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

Acetone can act as an ionic bridge and carry the resin deper into the surface being bonded, helps it wick...into the surface.
Most of it vaporises off but a small amount soaks in by capillary action and remains a few minutes longer.

 

[redfury]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

I can attest to the effects of not properly prepping a surface to be glassed. If I could get the stupid camera to connect with my computer, I could show you an area that I obviously didn't prep well enough...pried off with a pry bar like popping the lid off of Tupperware....

Must get to clean glass, must clean with Acetone...these are the basics for anyone attempting to work with fiberglass...there are no shortcuts.

As far as laying up fiberglass goes though, these steps are necessary to bond to old glass. If you are using unwaxed resin, you can lay the next layer over the previous without sanding and acetone-then only sanding needing to be done to make sure you have a flat surface again if any fibers are standing up.

 

[system-f]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

My reasoning for using epoxy between the transom layers is that epoxy is a glue where as poly is not, but I forgot about throwing a layer of fiberglass between...

I also forgot to ask about csm and cloth. No cloth on wood? have to have a layer of csm between??? So by that I would guess that csm goes between the transom layers? can 1708 go directly on wood?


I live in Texas. We did my auto to manual conersion and transfer case outside in the dead of winter and it was still 31 degrees. The only thing that is cold out here is the wind and I am going to setup the garage to handle the boat. Still not 100% sure where the outdrive and engine are going to live...maybe in the living room.

So it is looking like I need to seperate the hull to do proper gas tank replacement and install what I want up front. Not to mention this will make the transom work that much easier since I have to redesign the sides of it to extend all the way out.

In the picture above it doesn't look like the glass underneath was ground down?

Thanks for the help, keep the info coming.

 

[chrishayes]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

Reds picture is exactly what I was saying. You can see different colors there. That represents high and low spots. The high were ground but the lows are not. He shouldve ground another 1/8 to 1/4 inch off so that all the glass there looked like the high spots.Its a tough game because not enough grinding and you get that. Too much and you get to see the ground below! Red thanks for posting that.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

The reason I say acetone is not necessary is because your supposed to grind off however many layers may be contaminated. You need clean glass before you can lay up. There is resin designed to penetrate deeper than regular resin (primer). I work for a company that deals with FRP every day. This business has been open since 1978. We have our own "formula" to make our resins unique. We even have FRP that can be layed under water by divers. I'm going to post our website so you can see the different ways we work FRP. And no, this is not advertising. We don?t sell our products to individuals. We only sell them to people that have been trained with our products (I have personally trained people in Africa and Malaysia) . Anyway, if I can be of assistance to anyone here I will be glad to help. The site is not a very good, but here it is.

 

[chrishayes]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

I am not questioning you and your companies philosophies. I am just saying from expierience now after my meager resto involving glass and epoxy that I find using acetone to be an integral part of a good glass prep job. I can tell the difference period when using it and not using it. Just my expierience, I am not a proffessional just a perfectionist

Red, only you can answer what you feel went wrong in your layup. If you are willing, did you grind enough? Did you use acetone after cleaning just prior to layup? I still feel that water intrusion had a large roll to play in that failure. Not saying the water caused it but since the glass was not properly prepped the resin did not "bite" into the layer below, then within a short period of time later water was allowed to freely soak into and under it weekening the spot further. Bottom line is, betcha my lunch that you will prep the spot RIGHT the next time around Including an acetone wipe down.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

Must get to clean glass, must clean with Acetone...these are the basics for anyone attempting to work with fiberglass...there are no shortcuts.

There are many shortcuts when working with FRP. I don?t know if it?s worth passing them down to someone that doesn?t work with it everyday. Based on comments like this makes me believe that I may just confuse someone and lead them incorrectly.

As far as laying up fiberglass goes though, these steps are necessary to bond to old glass. If you are using unwaxed resin, you can lay the next layer over the previous without sanding and acetone-then only sanding needing to be done to make sure you have a flat surface again if any fibers are standing up.

Why would he be using waxed resin on something that?s not the top layer? I might recommend not using acetone sometimes, but suggesting he skips the light sanding between lay ups is wrong. It most definitely must be at least lightly sanded.

I don?t know if that roving is something you layed but to me it looks too dry OR like someone cleaned it with acetone and didn?t wait long enough for it to evaporate.

EDIT: As hayes points out it could also be water, it looks the same way as acetone does when you dont let it dry.

 

[chrishayes]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

When I use acetone I just pour it in a container and dip a lint free cloth into it then wring it out completely. I wipe in one direction then turn the cloth over wipe in one direction so on and so forth never letting a dirty rag touch the surface, not to mention due to the light amount left on the cloth there really is nothing left to evaporate after i get 3" from where I started. I also do this before even starting the layup process so there is a good 15 minutes before resin ever touches the surface that was wiped down. No way it all hasnt evaped by then. Just one mans opinion, I can tell the difference in surface cleanliness from using it, not to mention the surface seems a bit more well...i dont know how to describe it but if you use it you will see.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

When I use acetone I just pour it in a container and dip a lint free cloth into it then wring it out completely. I wipe in one direction then turn the cloth over wipe in one direction so on and so forth never letting a dirty rag touch the surface, not to mention due to the light amount left on the cloth there really is nothing left to evaporate after i get 3" from where I started. I also do this before even starting the layup process so there is a good 15 minutes before resin ever touches the surface that was wiped down. No way it all hasnt evaped by then. Just one mans opinion, I can tell the difference in surface cleanliness from using it, not to mention the surface seems a bit more well...i dont know how to describe it but if you use it you will see.

I have used it, many times. I'm not saying its wrong to use it, its just not necessary all the time (but it can cause issues if you don't let it evaporate). If you grind enough there wont be any contaminates to deal with. Like I said already, its probably better for me not to pass any "shortcuts" to someone that doesn't understand or work with it all the time. I have read many post in this forum and I can tell you that some people here really do understand it. There is also a bit of misinformation with other posters. I ask you this next question respectfully: Do you really think that pro FRP techs use your method of prep? I have worked at several FRP/coatings companies throughout the years. I can tell you that its not considered standard practice to wipe things down with acetone before lay up. If you feel you have a contamination after grinding you can clean it with acetone, but the correct way to do it is to keep grinding. To us, acetone is to clean our tools.

 

[chrishayes]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

I have used it, many times. I'm not saying its wrong to use it, its just not necessary all the time (but it can cause issues if you don't let it evaporate). If you grind enough there wont be any contaminates to deal with. Like I said already, its probably better for me not to pass any "shortcuts" to someone that doesn't understand or work with it all the time. I have read many post in this forum and I can tell you that some people here really do understand it. There is also a bit of misinformation with other posters. I ask you this next question respectfully: Do you really think that pro FRP techs use your method of prep? I have worked at several FRP/coatings companies throughout the years. I can tell you that its not considered standard practice to wipe things down with acetone before lay up. If you feel you have a contamination after grinding you can clean it with acetone, but the correct way to do it is to keep grinding. To us, acetone is to clean our tools.

Awesome! You go on man! I appreciate that you are a pro and all but I have to say that as a journeyman electrician, you wouldnt catch me EVER posting on an electrical forum! I do it for a living 8-10 hours a day, not boats. THis is a mostly first timers board and we certainly appreciate the help of pros but there is no need to be so smug about your "shortcuts" and "im a pro so I dont use your silly methods". We all have our learning curves here and our opinions and all are welcome. I, like you, am trying to help with my expieriences and I can assure you that the other long time members(professionals as well) ALL reccomend using acetone as a surface prep before glass work. Tell me this, can you truly use a broom on glass dust and honestly tell me that there is NONE left? Hell I dont care if you use water or spit on a rag, at least glass over a dust free worksite. No beef here, just realize that acetone will remove a multitude of contaminants that amateur frp users will likely leave behind during prep. It is inexpensive and useful for many things(including washing tools as you point out). Why would you NOT use it during a resto? Period.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

Awesome! You go on man! I appreciate that you are a pro and all but I have to say that as a journeyman electrician, you wouldnt catch me EVER posting on an electrical forum! I do it for a living 8-10 hours a day, not boats. THis is a mostly first timers board and we certainly appreciate the help of pros but there is no need to be so smug about your "shortcuts" and "im a pro so I dont use your silly methods". We all have our learning curves here and our opinions and all are welcome. I, like you, am trying to help with my expieriences and I can assure you that the other long time members(professionals as well) ALL reccomend using acetone as a surface prep before glass work. Tell me this, can you truly use a broom on glass dust and honestly tell me that there is NONE left? Hell I dont care if you use water or spit on a rag, at least glass over a dust free worksite. No beef here, just realize that acetone will remove a multitude of contaminants that amateur frp users will likely leave behind during prep. It is inexpensive and useful for many things(including washing tools as you point out). Why would you NOT use it during a resto? Period.

I wasn?t trying to come off smug, I apologize for the way that came out. I'm pretty new to the forum thing and I'm still trying to figure out how to express my self correctly. I assure you if we were having this conversation in person you would see I'm being sincere. To help you understand how I meant that think about it this way: If I started a thread about some electrical work at my house, and you noticed I was doing unnecessary things, you wouldn?t point it out? I think you would, but the difference is you could probably tell me without sounding condescending.
I have worked with FRP for a long time and if I can offer advice I will. If you disagree with it, counter it, that?s what these forums are for, getting different opinions.
The no acetone statement stands. If your area is so dirty that you have to clean it with acetone you didn?t prep it right. To me a bad "shortcut" to use would be prepping with acetone. If there is concern about contaminated dust you can use a leaf blower to get rid of it. Grinding or sandblasting are the ways to prep FRP.

 

[redfury]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

Well, I think it stands that most on the forums would rather over engineer for the sake of "knowing" the work will be good than to omit a step that others have taken and have had good results.

By the ways of my picture, I did not spend the time grinding the hull as I should have. I cleaned up where the old CSM was laid and didn't figure I'd have to grind the whole hull in order to get what I wanted accomplished -accomplished. I did not anticipate that the new glass I would be using would cover as much of an area, so the outer area that was bad was an area that I had not ground into much. The whiter areas are where I "glossed" over the glass. The roving is the original glastron hull lay up. Since I had gone through the glass in a couple of areas, I was gun shy to get much more involved in cutting on that original glass and figured that exposing a percentage of it and wiping with acetone would give the resin enough surface area to bite...my mistake in making an assumption with absolutely no practical experience to back it up.

I will be grinding much more on the boat now that I've been educated by my own failure.

I think part of the reason things happen the way they do, is because we don't fully understand the materials we are working with, due to inexperience. All the reading in the world cannot replace practical application ( OJT ) I know it happens when people try to refinish their own hardwood floors ( my job IRL ). It's just a matter of fact. Experience in the field is the only way to learn the nuances.

Fortunately, the majority of the stringer work I did was ground out far enough, but the center stringer is going to get mucho's grinding for prep, as well as the areas where the floor will be meeting the hull. This much I have learned, and a lesson learned and a mistake not repeated is worth the journey.

 

[drewpster]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

A word about grinding.
Grinding fiberglass is by far the most miserable and uncomfortable task related to replacing fiberglass cores in a boat. In most cases the boats we are working on are very old. (mine is 33 yrs) During its 33 years the fiberglass has had time for every bad thing possible to happen to it. Crazing, cracking, delamination, contamination, water intrusion just to name a few. To properly prepare the old stuff so the new stuff will stick means removing all the bad glass and getting the surface as clean as possible.
In some cases this means removal of thick layers of glass.
In the photo below is an area where a stringer has been removed. In the lower portion the darker areas are water intrusion. The raised edges is where the glass bridged the lower corners of the original stringer. The upper portions is where the roving lacks resin. All of this had to be ground off to a clean glass surface. And that is one small section under the deck!

So if your going to tackle grinding yourself a new boat do yourself a favor. Get aggressive grinding tools, proper safety gear, a tyvek suit, plenty of rubber gloves and masking tape.
Safety
Respirator- no dust masks, they do not filter well
goggles- fiberglass in the eye sucks..trust me
muffs or ear plugs- keeps dust out of the brains via the ear canal and helps you stand the noise
Tyvec suit- obvious anti-itch wear and keeps your laundry uncontaminated
rubber gloves- same as above, ever get fiberglass under a wedding ring? It blows
Masking tape- for taping your cuffs and is very useful for removing itchy glass from skin rub it on peel it off..it works but the hair goes with it

Tools
Heavy duty grinder with rubber backing pad and 36/28 grit sanding discs (the kind you hold with two hands. A real time saver and WILL grind all the way through if your not careful.
4 1/2" grinder with 36 grit flapper sanding discs. For more precise work and equally damaging without care. The flappers hold up longer than the little discs.
Straight die grinder or side cutting tool (rotozip or other) and a spiral burr bit. The burr will get in to tight areas and corners where the grinders wont reach. It can cut the boat in half so be gentle.

All of these tools can be had cheap at Harbor Freight. With these tools you can grind the whole boat to dust if you want. Realistically you can have your hull prepped in about 16 hours bow to stern. Otherwise your going to be sanding forever. Try to keep your prep areas as true as you can. The new glass will cover the imperfections but there is no need to be sloppy. And be conservative they can be damaging in the wrong hands.
And another thing.
If you are working in the garage I highly recommend you cover anything you do not want coated completely in fiberglass dust with plastic sheeting. You will have buckets of dust to clean up...be advised.
The investment in the tools is worth it. Buy cheap ones, they only need to last for the project. I think I have under $200 in all my grinding stuff. Worth every penny and still working fine. You will find a use for them throughout the project.

enjoy
drewp
BTW- the same prep applies when using epoxy..........

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

drewpster makes some great points in his post. The part of grinding being the most miserable is so true. I mostly work inside the office now, but I started at the very bottom. I have grinded way more than I ever wanted to. I still do it occasionally if its boat related. When I read some of the threads where people commented about how horrible their skin felt after grinding I could completely relate. Not only does is it get itchy it also physically hurts to have that stuff in your skin.