All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

[redfury]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

Not sure if I understand the question. Are you asking what we do to keep the area dry? If you are this is what we basically do.
We build plastic enclosures for our work area (we call it a hooch). To keep our sweat off the work area we do silly things. We put on sweat bands, tie rags on our wrists to keep sweat from dripping of our arms and keep rags handy to wipe our face. For our feet we use those rubber booties that fit over regular shoes. In a pinch plastic bags taped up will work. Sweat on the lay up area is an issue we always fight over here in the south. If a guy does sweat all over it, you can bet he is going to grind off every bit of the compromised glass (read no fun at all). And it does happen, you just can?t stop yourself from sweating (like I even had to point that out).

I guess my question was a bit obtuse. What I was trying to ask was what your experience was with glass jobs that have gotten wet shortly after finishing them. I laid the glass on my stringers and installed them, then that night, we got an unexpected rainstorm and I ended up with a boat full of water trapped by the stringers ( no drain holes at the time ).

So, what I was getting at was what have your experiences been with newly laid fiberglass that has been exposed to standing water...or just water in general. Keeping the area dry is just a matter of tarping it off and making sure you personally are not contaminating the freshly ground fiberglass...I'm after the after effects of water to virgin glass lay ups.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

I guess my question was a bit obtuse. What I was trying to ask was what your experience was with glass jobs that have gotten wet shortly after finishing them. I laid the glass on my stringers and installed them, then that night, we got an unexpected rainstorm and I ended up with a boat full of water trapped by the stringers ( no drain holes at the time ).

So, what I was getting at was what have your experiences been with newly laid fiberglass that has been exposed to standing water...or just water in general. Keeping the area dry is just a matter of tarping it off and making sure you personally are not contaminating the freshly ground fiberglass...I'm after the after effects of water to virgin glass lay ups.

It depends on the state of cure when the water came in contact with it. A firm laminate will have a slight amount of the resin on the surface turn white from the water. A soft (uncured) laminate will let the water penetrate deeper, the softer it is, the deeper the water will go.

In all cases the contaminated resin (white) will need to be removed if more glass is going to be applied over it. If the laminate was cured and there was a slight amount of discoloration on the surface and you don't need to glass over it, then there is no problem, just leave it as is.

 

[sbklf]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

-For the most part, Poly won't bond to epoxy or a waxed poly surface.
-You can grind IN the wax on a waxed surface if you don't remove it first (best to do with a "wax remover").
-Chemical bonds between layers makes a lamination one piece.
-Layers will chemically bond without sanding if applied before the previous layer cures making timing very important.
-For the most part, repairs are two chemically bonded lamination's mechanically bonded together. It's normal that a repair can be pulled from the original surface even if prepped correctly (not saying it should be easy).

 

[bigredinohio]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

This thread is really informative. Thanks for all to good info!

The only thing I didn't see (I might of missed it) is that epoxy is suppose to be stronger then poly. Also, epoxy is a little forgiving for a beginner however, terrible when wetting out matt.

The one thing I did find out this past weekend is that (poly) resins you usually find online normally come from one wholesaler where the distributors bottle the resin in their own containers under their own name.

I'd be eager to see some feedback on the use of vinlyester?

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

I guess my question was a bit obtuse. What I was trying to ask was what your experience was with glass jobs that have gotten wet shortly after finishing them. I laid the glass on my stringers and installed them, then that night, we got an unexpected rainstorm and I ended up with a boat full of water trapped by the stringers ( no drain holes at the time ).

So, what I was getting at was what have your experiences been with newly laid fiberglass that has been exposed to standing water...or just water in general. Keeping the area dry is just a matter of tarping it off and making sure you personally are not contaminating the freshly ground fiberglass...I'm after the after effects of water to virgin glass lay ups.

ondarvr's answer was really good. In a nutshell, if it turned white its ruined. If it was partially cured you might be able to get away with grinding locally and it might only be a layer or two deep.
The key is to set up your work area in a fashion that has rain, spills, sweat etc etc taken into account. Sometimes things take longer than we initially thought it would, so thinking a few weeks ahead is advised.

 

[adijoseph]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

I have been staring at this thread for a couple of days now trying to understand this process and I have a few questions:

1. How many layers of a resin/mating is enough.
2. Does the type and grade of wood you are using determine what product you use.
3. Would you use a waxed resin if you were going to paint, say like a finished floor.

The more a look through this web site the more I start to think that I am over simplifying my project. I was planing to replace what ever stringers were rotten, coat them with a combo "Bondo Polyester Resin" with "Bondo's" fiberglass mat. (Both available at Sears Hardware around here) Replacing the decking, do a combo coat on it. And finish it off with a "Nautolex" type marine grade flooring attached with a spray adhesive.

Two things with my project is that I have never rehabbed a boat before and it was free. The only money I have spent on it so far was gas to get it home and some engine tuning.

 

[adijoseph]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

Another question off topic for the group, what is your wood of choice for stringers and flooring? I keep reading that marine grade is over rated and pressure treaded needs to dry for a month.

I want to play now damn it!!

 

[ondarvr]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

Since this is expanding into a "resin in general thread", I'll put this link in place so the information doesn't need to be repeated. This link is for the sticky at the top of the restoration page.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=288451

 

[adijoseph]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

Sorry man new to site, did not mean to step in your resin.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

Sorry man new to site, did not mean to step in your resin.

There's no problem, it's just that most general questions have been answered and if we can point someone to older threads that cover most of the background information, then they will have more specific questions that relate to the project they're doing.

 

[redfury]

Re: All about resins

Re: All about resins

ondarvr's answer was really good. In a nutshell, if it turned white its ruined. If it was partially cured you might be able to get away with grinding locally and it might only be a layer or two deep.
The key is to set up your work area in a fashion that has rain, spills, sweat etc etc taken into account. Sometimes things take longer than we initially thought it would, so thinking a few weeks ahead is advised.

Alright. I can accept that. So, all that being said, what would be an average time that could be used as a gold standard for unwaxed resin to be safe to be exposed to the elements? I ask this because I'm sure I'm not the only one that has limited time to work on their projects. I'm two stringers into a 3 stringer job, and it's been 2-3 weeks since I laid glass last. I don't know when I'll actually get back to glassing again, and with the boat being outside, I'd hate to jeopardize my work, or any future work from damage.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

Its not time related, its cure related, if its hard, then its fine, if its soft, then it better not get wet.

 

[chrishayes]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

Ok, so I have some more to add to this. I regretably have to add some bad news about epoxy resin that was never spelled out really clearly to me. I developed a terrible rash tonight after working with it last night. It was the first time that resin has touched my bare arm after months of working with it. I was wearing disposable gloves and short sleeves. Normally I use a brush and am very careful so I dont worry about it much. Well, I bent over to pick up the brush that I dropped and accidentaly put my forearm in the layup I was doing. The resin was starting to cure so I didnt have time to clean it off right away. About 5 minutes later I wet a towel with a little acetone and washed it off. do not use acetone to wash your skin!!!!! Came in, washed up with soap and water. Then as I said, I looked down and my whole forearm from elbow to wrist looks like I have poison ivy times 5.

Bottom line, do not think epoxy is less dangerous. It isnt. Grinding and using the stuff needs to be done safely. I always wear a respirator and tyvek suit when grinding but since no one says that epoxy requires anymore precaution than to not get it on you I never wear a respirator while doing a layup. I did some research and found some pretty startling stuff. Here is some of it.
http://www.skinrashespictures.com/skin-rashes/epoxy-skin-rash-irritation-pictures.html
http://www.fram.nl/workshop/controlled_vacuum_infusion/allergy.htm
http://www.glen-l.com/supplies/pxman-safety.html

 

[bigredinohio]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

I do some sanding with gloves but have my forearms are exposed and I get what looks like a razor burn that lasts a couple of days. I've had pb on my arms and that usually turns my arms red from me scrubbing to get the crap off. Even then, it still feels like it's on you.

 

[chrishayes]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

oh this is WORSE than razor burn! Seriously, read those links and protect yourself more. I will from here on out. What a kick in the head that would be to spend all this money and time on an epoxy boat resto just to end up not being able to go near it seriously, at least I will now wear long sleeves and my respirator with organic vapor cartridges. I dont need to get anymore screwed up than I already am.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

Many people think that polyester is more toxic than epoxy because the odor can be strong at times, but one of the reasons more boats aren't made from epoxy are the health related issues associated with it. I know many people that have epoxy related issues and no one with polyester health issues, and I know very few people that work with epoxy compared to the thousands I've met that work with polyester.

As far as acetone, most people use it to wash up after getting sticky, in some shops they almost bathe in it. Its another product that you should limit your contact with, but shows no real affects even after long term use, at least any I've seen.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

When acetone evaporates from your skin it takes the natural oil with it. A few washes with it will leave your hands flaky white.
Wearing the thin latex gloves with the yellow or blue "dish washer" gloves over them works good. After the lay up session is complete you can clean all the tools and dishwasher gloves with acetone and throw away the latex gloves. I like two gloves on in case I need a clean hand quickly. The latex glove is usually clean enough for some thing I might grab but, if not I can take the latex off too. No need to stop and clean hands first this way. You will be surprised how little sticky frp build up will be on your main resin cans this way.
Safety is covered well in this forum. None of the rules have exceptions when it comes to safety.

 

[system-f]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

Does anyone use a 3m respirator? If so what filter do you use for poly?

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...E3E02LES9MG812H2_nid=8D5S5LZ17HbeF3RH7CD92Ngl

 

[Camlee98]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

Any respirator that accepts cartridges will be fine. DO NOT USE THE DOCTOR TYPE DUST MASKS they are useless! If you go with a fullface respirator you don't have to worry about your face and eyes (no need for goggles). If you go with a half face repirator make sur you use goggles and remeber if your grinding that dust will be on parts of your face (between the respirator and goggles). As far as cartridges go you can use any of the organic vapor cartridges (I would not use the nuisance level cartridges inside closed areas if your working outside those would be fine).
Breakdown
For grinding use Particulate cartridges (for extra safety use the ones with protection from organic vapor nusisance level)
For expoxy or Poly resin use organic vapor cartridges
Full face Pros no goggles, more protection.
Cons if you wear glasses they don't fit inside, hotter, fogs up.
Half face Pros works with glasses, cooler, less to clean.
Cons less face protection, need goggles.
Regardless of which one you choose make sure it's the right size! If it's leaking around the face seal it's not working Quick fit test place your hands over the holes where the cartridges attach. Suck in..... if the mask sucks to your face and you feel no leaks around the seal your good!
I know this is more info than you wanted but I figured it would help others when choosing!

 

[allpoints360]

Re: All about resins (Cliff Notes added to top of page 1)

do not use acetone to wash your skin!!!!!

Chris, your rash might have something to do with the catalyst, or the epoxy reacting. I don't think it would be the acetone?

The only time I've ever had a problem with acetone on my skin was when it got into a cut. Ouch. Otherwise, years of use, no problems.

Good well soon.