All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

[Yacht Dr.]

I would like to welcome both long standing members and new members to this Elusive debate about Boat Fillers.

I have noticed an increase of questions about " how to fill this blemish or that scratch/chip etc. ".

I would like to start off by saying that most materials can be used/re-used for most of the repairs.

There is a right and wrong for larger repairs or rebuilds and this thread is not dedicated towards those types of questions/answers.

What would you use for a simple repair on your gelcoat.

I will start off with " gelcoat that matches your boat if possible ".

No Bondo or Duraglass ( or 3m fillers or other fillers ) .. if you have to use gelcoat then you already have the Resin. You can add Cabosil or chopped up CSM to repair small fills.

What say you Iboats members ?

Lets get the Filler Questions answered .

YD.

 

[BillP]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

Your "no fillers" statement is too broad. There are structural, non structural, epoxy, urethanes and at least two poly resins to make the stuff. Basically, structural and non structural. Decide compatability...poly over epoxy, paint, resin, etc. Then ease of use...overhead, horizontal suface, sagging, vertical, etc.

Cabosil is a non structual "filler" and when enough volume is used to make resin into a putty the mix is very weak and has the same chance of chunking out as other non structual fillers. Cabosil works ok in small cosmetic repair and happens to be a food thickener too, so is safe to work around. Even glass ball types are fillers and practically speaking, are cosmetic fillers. Aluminun balls are used for fillers in high pressure FRP molding where temperature is a factor...but they are non structural.

Structural...the best "filler" is fiberglass strands and resin. Weaker when used with standard poly resin and stronger with more tenacity when using vinylester (3M uses it) or epoxy. The strongest filler with the most tenacity is a matrix of glass fibers and epoxy...but there are non glass fillers that run a close 2nd (gray marinetex)...white MT is much weaker.

The big deal to me is workability...it's hard to get max strength with any filler that won't sag. Glass fibers and resin always seperates and the resin runs out of the whole piece or sags. Putty made form cabosil type fillers sag but to a lessor extent. So there are at least two ways I know to get around this. Multiple layers and/or use poly with whatever filler you want and mix the batch hot so it doesn't have time to sag. Now we are going into glassing territory.

Structural or non structural...pick your type, ready made or home brew. As I posted in another string, the 3m structural filler works as advertised and is lightyears ahead of other "in the can" poly fillers. Grouping it with 3m non structural filler and any other non structural poly filler is a gross error.

bp - Disclaimer: No proclaimation here to be giving "PRO" advice. Never have, never will.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

Cabosil is a strong filling agent ( especially when mixed with glass ).

It Is Dangerous .. do not breath it.

This thread is for Small nicks and ding gel repairs.

I stated that in my OP .. I suggest that you will have to get the gel for the repair.

Most dings and scratches require you to have gel.

I suggest that the only filler is one you make from your gel with cabosil ( gel paste ).

If there are other recommended fillers please post them up

The thing about repairing small patches with XYZ is the Hardness. Now in Florida you can get away with patching a ding with a in can filler.

You really have to watch out for using different fillers when working with boats.

They do not have the same Hardness when subject to cold and heat ( like in Michigan ). Those repairs will pop out because they shrink and expand differently from the substrate.

If your going to do a gel repair .. use gel where gel is ..and glass where glass is .

This is only a first hand recommendation .

I would like more 'filler' pros and cons and why and where..

YD.

 

[BillP]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

I was sharing info for discussion on fillers and thank you but I'm not interested in your advice. Regardless, here's some useful and very safe advice that's well known in my glassing circle of friends...Cabosil...don't buy the hazardous stuff (aerosil). Buy the non hazardous type cabosil that is FDA approved for food. I bought a 10lb bag of it several yrs ago (through a surfboard mfg) with an MSDS that said so. You cannot tell the difference between the treated and untreated cabosils (non haz). I still use particle masks & respirators but don't have the health concern anymore. As I previously and accurately posted, the stuff is used in food.
Sure it works for dings and scratches but it is no way structural.

bp

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

I was sharing info for discussion on fillers and thank you but I'm not interested in your advice.

But other members might be interested in My advice .. I was not specifically referencing to any member or product ..

I was looking for fillers and applications ..

YD.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

The health aspects and warnings when using Aerosil and Cabosil have nothing to do with it being edible, breathing it is the issue.

Yes this type of product is used in making food products, having something in your stomach is much different than having it in your lungs. If you were eating the polyester putty, then Cabosil would be the least harmful ingredient. Both products are possibly hazardous when inhaled.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

YD's comments are meant to keep it simple, if you are doing a repair and have resin and gel coat on hand most of the time there is no need to buy other products (pre-made and costly fillers) to get the job done, the two products you have can be used to make most repairs.

For other types of repairs a particular pre-made product may be what you need.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

For that matter, it is always a good idea to avoid inhaling any kind of dust. In my woodshop, I always wear a mask. Some wood dust is hazardous but All dust is bad for your lungs. Edible or not!!!

 

[Cadwelder]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

Gotta agree 100% with Yacht Dr on this one, small dings and scratches fill nicely with gelcoat (Yes, YD I've done it, several times just here lately). My only problem is matching the color, this is an art that I have not mastered yet, (I can get close), fortunately the repairs I've had to make have been in gelcoat that I have matching colors for.

I repaired a chip, just yesterday about the size of a dime and about 20 mills deep, roughed it up a bit with 100 grit, cleaned it really good with acetone (several times) and filled it in, a few hours later sanded in down and buffed it out, and it completly disappeared. I used nothing but gelcoat....no need for any kind of fillers....


CW

 

[oops!]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

LOL CAD..............(not to hijack)

. My only problem is matching the color, this is an art that I have not mastered yet, (I can get close),.
CW

if you cannot match a color of gell EXACTLY.....

you are wearing the wrong clothes ! .....yup....really.

get a big black cape....[EDIT TO ADD.... not a brownish black, blueish black or redish black cape....but a true black black cape]...with a tall pointy witches hat......have a broom for stirring the stuff.

dont forget to do a little jig before you try and match the color......and when you are doing the match.....hold your tounge in the CORRECT POSITION.

if you do these steps properly.....you can match your gell color.

(matching gell is a real dark art bud....even guys that have been doing it many many years dont nail it)

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

And here all the time I thought the trick to color matching gelcoat or paint was using the old time Christmas tree color wheel to look through when you were mixing it.:facepalm:

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

LOL CAD..............(not to hijack)

(matching gell is a real dark art bud....even guys that have been doing it many many years dont nail it)

Actually your not jacking the thread at all oops . If your doing a Gel repair then..well..you need gel to finish it with. Might as well do the whole thing in the colored gel your going to be using in the end.

So Color matching for some Might be the first step in the repair.

If your trying to get a Good Long Lasting Match of the GEL .. then try to get the Factory Matched GEL. Yes it is going to be expensive. But if you have the Base colors in the mix then the match will last longer ( even if you have to 'tweak' it a little ).

Going from a standard 'bright white' to an eggshell or off white to match is do-able .. but the after effects of the pigment when in the UV will change in a season or two.

Sometimes you have to Mis-Match the color to let the pigments 'work/swing' after a few months of application.

I Mix Very good matches for gelcoat. However there are TWO matches you can do.

One match is 'right now' Perfect Match. .. Meaning the owner does not want to see the repair Right NOW. So you can match the gel perfectly and buff and blend and get your $$.

Second match is 'Wait Match'. Meaning your spot/blend did not match the color Perfectly. .. But it will in a few months ..

I do the 'wait match' for gel repairs. I will explain the match and have had NO problems thus far .

And here all the time I thought the trick to color matching gelcoat or paint was using the old time Christmas tree color wheel to look through when you were mixing it.:facepalm:

LOL .. I have never seen that used..but you Might be on to something .

Seriously .. You might be on to something ..

Hmm.. I might have to do another Thread about color matching Gel.

YD.

 

[BillP]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

The health aspects and warnings when using Aerosil and Cabosil have nothing to do with it being eatable, breathing it is the issue.

Yes this type of product is used in making food products, having something in your stomach is much different than having it in your lungs. If you were eating the polyester putty, then Cabosil would be the least harmful ingredient. Both products are possibly hazardous when inhaled.

Better doublecheck your references ondarvr. This is 15+ yr old info and still current...nothing new with pros. It's a big consideration when working with fillers.

One type cabosil is officially classfied as a hazardous material, can be fatal for breathing and requires a serious organic respirator with the correct filters. The other type isn't classified hazardous, doesn't require even a particle mask and is only an irritant when inhaled. Big health hazard difference here whether you inhale or "eat" it.

If the heath situation doesn't get your attention but you use a respirator, check the cost of high quality organic filters...I believe the last ones I bought were $35 each. Cheaper can be had but you get what you pay for.

bp

 

[mxcobra]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

I eat paste

 

[jasoutside]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

This may be of interest...

(The fella on the video is an outlaw. He took his black hat off just before he started taping)

 

[idonthaveaname]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

Great tips gentlemen, and a nice recommendation on the site.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

One type cabosil is officially classfied as a hazardous material, can be fatal for breathing and requires a serious organic respirator with the correct filters. The other type isn't classified hazardous, doesn't require even a particle mask and is only an irritant when inhaled.

That statement is somehow contradictory. ' not hazardous..does not require even a particle mask ( dust mask ) .. but is somehow ONLY an irritant when inhaled ' ???

This thread is not about CABOSIL. It is NOT about the nature of all Hazardous materials that a DIY'er will come across during even a simple repair. This is NOT a Safety course in small repairs.

I will agree that there are materials that are less Dangerous to use during a simple gel repair. However..in the long run you WILL need to use a resporator while dealing with resins ( gel/resin/acetone vapors ). Might as well strap on that Respo that you have and do it SAFE !.

Ok..you have FDA approved Cab-O-Sil .. Great. Its not as structurally strong as the Real CABOSIL and is less toxic. .. again great. But what are you mixing this NON-Toxic Cabosil with ? .. Yup .. Real nasty resins that you should be wearing a respo/gloves and body protection in the first place.

The thread name was kinda Tongue and Cheek. I did not mean 'pros and cons' to completely suggest the information was given from Know-it-alls or Idiots.

I was hoping that the Information posted would try to 'evaluate' Small GEL chips and ding repairs.
What materials do you Actually need to repair Simple gel repairs ( pros and cons of each product ).

I myself do only Gel and cabosil mix/sand/spray/sand and buff. .. some like to do the bondo/sand/spray method.

I am directing this thread to those that just need "small gel repairs" ( as I have said in the first post ).

If you have pros or cons about any other materials or processes then please add to the thread.

Dont take it personal if someone debates you on your materials .. that is what the thread is about..debate..lets get to the bottom of simple gel repairs.

YD.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

I'm a proud "CON" (meaning I'm not a Pro)!!! Being a DIY'er I may or may not have Poly or Epoxy Resin, Cabosil, Chopped milled fibers, scrap pieces of CSM or Biax laying around. Heck it may be my very first time attempting to work with fyburGlass(see I can't even spell it rite):facepalm: Taking that into account I think the usage of readily available materials from the Big Box Stores and the Auto Supply houses can be a viable alternative for, Take note of this, Above the waterline, small (up to the size of a quarter in diameter) patches! Since Bondo type products use Talc as their primary filler they can and do absorb water over the long run however they are poly based and will accept gelcoat. Gelcoat is porous and will allow water penetration to some extent too! This can mean that due to water penetration the bondo product might swell causing the finished surface to crack and or peel. (Been there done that). A good quality paint will seal the surface and not allow water penetration to the substrate below. However if a small chip occurs on the patched area then the water will be able to penetrate to the filler material. If the DIY'er is NOT going to finish the patch with Gelcoat but rather use paint to finish the patch, then epoxy is readily available to them and is a great alternative for filling small screw holes etc. For larger gouges, I would recommend, "Tiger Hair" type products. Again, Bondo makes em but we have discussed those issues. 3M makes em and they are 100% impervious to water. Evercoat makes a good "Ready to use out of the Can" "TigerHair" as well. Personally, I like to make my own but...Not every DIY'er has all the ingredients laying around or locally available to make their own. If you do then by all means I recommend making it yourself in order to controll the consistency of the final product as well as gel times etc... Resin, Cabosil, Chopped milled fibers and you're good to go. For "Tiger Hair" just pull some spare CSM apart and mix in the strands. Sanding these concoctions is not easy. They set up HARD!! and usually with voids. Normally need to have a finer filler to do the final fairing. Again making your own is, IMHO, the best way, but there are products you can buy to do the job. Same MFG's as noted above.

Once again, I AM a "CON" not a "PRO" just putting out what has worked for me. This advice and a Buck will get you a cup of coffee...Sometimes!!!!!

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

a Buck will get you a cup of coffee...Sometimes!!!!!

I will gladly send you another buck to buy a beer . ( Although from your response I think you do need a cup of coffee ).

Debate the methods/materials all you like. I have set forth the materials that you would need for a Simple gelcoat repair.

CSM and Resin is not what I use personally for a simple chip or scrape. If you have another method of repair then please state how and what you use the materials.

Personal attacks are not really what I am looking for ( If you see my comment on "pros and cons" its not personal ).

Please do not make this a Moderated thread.... ... I will if I have to..

YD.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: All You Need To Know About Fillers From the 'Pros' and 'Cons'

Better doublecheck your references ondarvr. This is 15+ yr old info and still current...nothing new with pros. It's a big consideration when working with fillers.

One type cabosil is officially classfied as a hazardous material, can be fatal for breathing and requires a serious organic respirator with the correct filters. The other type isn't classified hazardous, doesn't require even a particle mask and is only an irritant when inhaled. Big health hazard difference here whether you inhale or "eat" it.

If the heath situation doesn't get your attention but you use a respirator, check the cost of high quality organic filters...I believe the last ones I bought were $35 each. Cheaper can be had but you get what you pay for.

bp

I’m not sure where you are going with this, and I have no clue why you brought up FDA approvals and such.

The type of silica used in this industry does not contain crystalline silica, which is the hazardous type and may result in silicosis, a deadly condition. The type of fumed silica we use is the safer type that can be used in foods, paint, cosmetics, etc. FDA approval doesn’t make it safe to breath though, dusts in general aren’t safe to breath, some are worse than others, but none are good for you. Osha sets TWA exposure limits for fumed silica, meaning they don’t think its a good idea to breath more than a small amount.

It’s interesting the manufacturers of fumed silica recommend not creating a dust cloud or breathing it, and when cleaning up a spill you should use a full suit and mask, possibly with an air supplied hood.

We use truck loads of this stuff every day.