Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

[ondarvr]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

Ralph<br /><br />I agree with you, there is less fiberglass in boats being made now, thats why it's refered to as the composites industry now, not the fiberglass industry, and in many cases it does take less to damage them. I am not aware of these failures happening very often (never would be good though), but I'm sure they do. We may find that in a few years hulls need to be made stronger and engineers will then design in more strengh.<br /> <br />When I talk about consumers demanding some of these trade offs, it reminds me of a visit to a very large bass boat company. I was there to help them on another matter when a customer came into their office and said the hull of his boat had a big hole in it. He said he was just running down the lake at about 65MPH and the hull just broke, he insisted he didn't hit anything. As they were talking I went outside and crawled under the boat to take a look, I found a chunk of wood still jammed into part of the damaged area. Could the hull be made to hold up under that kind of impact, yes, but it would be heavier, then it wouldn't be able to do 65+MPH with the same motor. The boat would need to be bigger to be safe with more power and then heavier again because of the increased size. If the boat was heavier and slower then he wouldn't have purchased it, he would have found a lighter faster one. This boat was still able to get back to the dock without a problem and was not sinking, even with a large hole in it. So technically, to the engineer, this was a safe design. When they crash test cars the concern is how badly would the people in it get hurt, there is far less concern on how badly damaged the car is. They may be using the same engineers.<br /> <br />Cosmetics is another area of compromise, some of the products used in boats now are there only to get a better surface profile, people don't like to see a glass pattern in the gel coat. These products add no strength only cost, and if used incorrectly may weaken the structure, but if the builder didn't use them, the boats wouldn't sell. <br /><br />I agree that weaker is not better, but if people demand lighter, faster, better looking boats and only buy that type, then thats what the builders will make so they can stay in business.<br /><br />The boats I own don't fall into the catagory we are talking about, they are not the fastest, lightest or best looking (some glass fiber print), but they are very strong. If you swing at them with a hammer you better duck because the hammer will be coming back at you very fast.

 

[BrettNC]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

The guy said he had no doubt that a hammer could break through the hull, not that he actually did it. But that doesn't mean anything.<br /><br />The force imposed by a small surface area with a relatively high mass struck against a surface is several thousand pounds per square inch. That has nothing to do with the forces the boat experiences in the water. I can completely break a piece of tempered single pane glass if I throw a small pebble as hard as I can at it. That doesn't mean the glass is faulty.<br /><br />If you go flying off of a 10' wave, you may very well do damage to a boat no matter how it is built. So don't go flying off of a 10' wave.<br /><br />This guy has no idea what he is talking about when he wrote this particular article. He needs to stick with surveying, and not design/engineering. He doesn't have the knowledge to give credible advice on this stuff. This seems more like fear mongering than anything else.

 

[djzyla1980]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

"I have one Question if you had a accident which would you rather have it in a 1960 model auto or a 2005 auto?"<br /><br />I would say I would rather put me and my family in a vehicle built in 1960. They were proved to be stronger auto's compared to todays, but they lack the safety features of todays vehicles. Why are the saftey features greater today? Because the auto's are built cheaper, forcing higher saftey standards. If the auto's would have been the same... I think we would not have the safety standards we have today.<br /><br />I in no way stated that I would not hire a surveyer to check out a boat... I only simply stated the fact that this man pointed out every negative contruction from most manufacturers. Hey if he wants to help people purchase boats.. why don't we write about the builders that are doing right... instead of brining out the negative in most and you cannot tell me that out of all those boats he has looked at there was'nt one that met his satsifaction. But what is it... I find his negative talkings nothing but complaining and job security... If I was going to buy a 100,000 boat and hired him to look at a few. I want his opinion. He's in the business, he's been around, The least I would expect from him after he told me all the problems in contruction with the boats I looked at... tell me a positive one. That too much to ask??????? I find him no help what so ever. Let everyone know the boats that are decent and can withstand these extremes, Don't hogwash the negatives and not change anything. I know If I read any where, in the few I read, of one built to his standards still in business, I would look for one first off, Causing the other builders to get with it. But I guess if he did that... then he would loose work, it's job security not spilling the beans... He did that he wouldn't have as many "bad" boats to survey.<br /> It's a give and take situation. Simply put. As the same when you buy an Auto. You might just go with the less HP for higher safety standards. Visa Versa

 

[north40]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

The way I look at it is "a picture is worth a thousand words". Anyone who looks at the pictures and doesn't see a problem must have his head in the sand. Whatever his motives or expertise, the photos speak for themselves.

 

[djzyla1980]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

I would agree north40.... but havin some names of some good built ones wouldn't hurt...lol

 

[BrettNC]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

The photos don't mean anything unless you know exactly what caused the damage. I could show you a photo of a car that hit a tree. By your standards, you would look at it and say "that car is pretty banged up, there must be a big problem with that car." The only problem is that it hit a tree.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

My boat is over 40 years old and the hull is very solid. Some of those old early glass boats were built simple and tough. I don't think the hull of my boat is more than 3/8" in most areas. I do know the hull was made in a steel pressure mold after layup. At any rate, it's still around. That has got to say something.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

Originally posted by treedancer:<br /> I have one Question if you had a accident which would you rather have it in a 1960 model auto or a 2005 auto?

No contest, a modern car wins everytime. Airbags, seatbelt pre-tensioners, side intrusion bars and last but definetly not least - crumple zones.<br /><br />Many more people these days walk away from serious accidents with their brains still in one piece.

 

[G DANE]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

Well, the early gf boats was overkill. I had a 21' Norwegian Fjord 1976 daycruiser some years. It was all manually laid up, roven was visible thru gel-coat, and everywhere just around 1/2" thick. This hull was unbeblievable solid. You could go WOT in ANY chop, and there was not a sound, apart from wawes splitting. Mark 42 you are in a sminlar situation, just in a smaller boat. They will last a long time. There wasnt documentation enough for gf strength these days, so they made something similar to plywood thichness. The result was good and strong boats, but somewhat overkill.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

How strong are the "home made" boats that use 1/4" marine ply and a few layer of glass/resin on each side? Like the designs on the Glen-L website. Seems to me that those plywood cores are nothing more than a frame to hang the glass and resin on. Every hear of damage to those hulls and their strength?

 

[b.gagnon]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

Thank god for Aluminium!

 

[CalicoKid]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

Actually a wood core boat is pretty tough. Once Glass and resin is laminated to plywood it becomes a much more rigid panel. Pound for pound wood/composite construction is hard to beat for rigidity which equates to efficiency in say racing sailboats and lightweight planing hulls. In sailing circles this method is seeing somewhat of a revival. Rot is a big drawback though as is difficulty in construction, especially if mass production is considered. Builder skill, design, and materials chosen make all the difference as far as durability is concerned.<br /><br />If the goal was to have the most abusable boat possible I'd want one made of steel.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

About 2 seasons ago a transom broke off a relatively new boat and put 3 children and the owner into 40 degree water off Cape Cod. It was the beginning of the season. Luckily a fishing boat saw it happen and was on the scene quickly. At the time I wondered how the transom cold have rotted that quickly and/or not have been noticed by the owner... Now I'm wondering if the boat simply broke apart due to inferior construction and/or materials.<br /><br />You can't really compare a car and a boat. Hitting a pothole at 30 mhp is seldom fatal while hitting a 3' unexpected swell in a boat that breaks apart can be. In addition, life saving help is often minutes away on land and possibly hours away on the ocean, assuming you even have time to radio for help. The margin of error in a boat on the ocean is much smaller than it is driving even the smallest car on land.<br /><br />Being launched out of the water and falling the equivalent of 10' or so is a rather common occurrence on the Ocean in the Northeast. You can be cruising along in moderate chop at say 30mph and hit a totally unexpected swell and be launched clean out of the water only to fall into a trough - kaboom! I have that happen to me fairly often even in a 6,600 lb 28' Formula. The boat handles it w/o a problem.<br /><br />I understand the marketing need that drives boat builders. My concern though, is that people don't really know what they are buying and don't really understand the limitations and risks associated with buying a boat who's hull can be pierced with a hammer. The fact that a surveyor who is around boats all the time didn't realize how these new boats were being made and their limitations is a frightening revelation. I think that shows there are lots of people doing things on these boats that are risky because they are assuming they are as "tough" as the same basic type of boat built with "traditional" materials and techniques.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

It can be difficult without further investigation to know if the transom falling off, or some of these other failures are design and engineering problems, or just a bad job being done by a minimum wage, poorly trained, employee with a hangover. Some of these boat builders make 15 to 30+ boats per day, so it is likely that a few of these boats are not as good as they should be and could fail. Even though these boats are semi mass produced they are still basically hand made, and people make mistakes.<br /> <br />I had an employee making a piece for a large fiberglass part that is unrelated to the boating industry, this person started using less glass in the part, but was still recording the weight as what it should have been. If these units were installed and used in a certain way they would fail, this was maybe 2% of the time. We researched the problem, found what he was doing and changed it so it couldn't be done again. Years later I was discussing this with a boat builder, it turned out this same person had done the same thing to them, over 100 boats were made with very thin hulls, it was caught by a dealer that noticed how the hulls were deforming on the trailers. None of these boats made it to the water, but if only a couple were made and slipped through inspection they could be shipped out, and then fail. <br />This was many years ago, when boats were <br />"over built", so even then there were weak boats being made.<br /> <br />In the late sixty's and early seventy's when I was in school, I was sort of self employed repairing fiberglass boats. I can tell you that there were many junk fiberglass boats being made then. Those junk boats didn't last very long and are now in land fills, so you can't see how bad they were made then. You only see the well made ones that survived.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

ondarvr,<br /><br />So are you familiar with Genmar's VEC technology (or whatever it is they call it for each particular Brand they own) for molding the entire boat at once with that Roplene stuff (including stringers) instead of fusing pieces of fiberglass or aluminum together?<br /><br />Concept sounds promising, curious how good it is in reality.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Are they really fiberglass boats anymore?

Lakelivin<br /><br />Yes, but VEC is different than the Ropelene boat. VEC is a way of molding fiberglass, the normal stuff. The Ropelene boat is rotomolded out of a similar product that kayaks and childrens toys are made from. But I can't discuss details of either product because of non disclosure agreements. The Ropelene boats don't have the good cosmetics of fiberglass, it's a rougher less glossy surface, but very durable. I have never been out in one, so I can't say anything about how they handle.