As a complete outsider .......

[Andrew Leigh]

Hi all,

I don't know how I pen this post without creating another "Dems" "Reps" war but indulge me.

My knowledge of your politcs is poor to say the least so don't attack.

As president of a small company I feel for GWB and the pressure he faces. Even the opposing party must acknowledge that the pressure is MASSIVE . I have made bad decisions in my career but on a hugely smaller level, I don't sleep, I get ripped apart "small time". On the positive I have never had the pressure of the press to deal with and the constant pressure of being in the limelight.

As a South African my politics are probably more closely aligned with the current administration .... I don't expect you to to understand my politics.

The point ...... I think that Mr Bush has finally lost the plot. I hope for the sake of the U.S, that Mr. Bush has not created another generation of "veterans".

I don't have an answer and am glad I am not pressed to give one. I would like to see unemotional answers (if that is possible) as this really interests me. I have to believe that as a Rep or a Dem you would have no desire to see a new new generation of "Vets". Wounded men that get forgotten in the passage of time. Mods if you believe this is contencious then feel free to ZAP me.

As a past Captain in our Infantry, who has faught in two terrorist wars I can also fully understand going to war to protect the interests of those at home.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

In a nutshell, it is the belief of many that our President entered his office with a predetermination to get Sadaam Hussein for purely personal reasons. Many believe that he used the attacks on New York and Washington by a handful middle eastern fanatics to give him an excuse to show-up his father who did not take-out Hussein after he invaded Kuwait and was beaten back in the first Persian Gulf War. Many believe that he used certain intelligence to bolster his position, swept intelligence that opposed his reasoning under the rug, and fabricated intelligence to prey on the emotions of a nation in shock and grief to back him in his crusade. Many believe that anybody that worked for him that did not agree with him were of no use to him, so he fired them and found people to go along with him to replace them.

Many believe that Vice President **** Cheney, War Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and head advisor Karl Rove influenced the President and misled him into believing that Iraq would greet our troops with flowers and cheers, form a peaceful democratic government, and sell thier oil to the US at a discount. Many believe that this led to delusions of a success that simply was not happening due to centuries-old disputes and animosities between religious and political factions in an unstable region. He suffered a bad defeat when his party became outnumbered in our last major election. He seems to have awaken to what has tanspired and is just now realizing that he created quite a mess.

Last night he gave a speech where he seemed to finally recognize what is really happening over there and appeared to take some responsibility for mistakes for the first time in his Presidency. Until now he has been in total denial of the actual situation and was completely unwilling to admit any mistakes whatsoever. He still has a long way to go, but hopefully he is finally on the right track, and hopefully it hasn't come too late.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Hey Willy,

As a president one cannot blame ones advisors. One can only blame ones ability not to discern good advisors from bad.

STILL it's a bum job. Damned if you don't and damned if you do. It's so great to sit in the stands with no answer, talking about me that is.

I often museand cringe at the thought of the pressure these international leaders must face.

The one thing I have learnt in business is that all decisions are easy until it become your call ........


Cheers
Andrew




I wonder

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Kinda makes you wonder why they want the job in the first place, doesn't it? Who in their right mind would want the pressures of the whole world bearing down on them? Either a Great man, or a fool. History will tell which we got this round.

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

It's lonely at the top.

 

[PW2]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Hi, Andrew,

We'll never know for sure what motivated Bush to do what he did in Iraq. What I would love to know is what motivated Tony Blair to follow.

But Bush had lots of smart people warning him of potential consequences of his actions, not the least of whom was Colin Powell.

As far as the pressure, it's part of the job. As old Harry Truman used to say, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

And as any person in leadership knows, when you make decisions, some of them may well be wrong. The key is to recognize when they are wrong, admit it, and try to fix them. Most people of either party know that mistakes happen.

Always by denying reality, the mistakes get magnified and take on a greater impact.

Just as in scandal cover-ups, the cover-up is almost always worse than the original crime.

I hope Willy is right, and that we are finally on the right track. I saw nothing in that speech last nite that would convince me that was the case, but I've been wrong before, and I hope I am wrong this time.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Hi Andrew, Very good post, and provocative questions. I am a patriotic American "Conservative" ,(which could be considered "Liberal" in many ways as compared to the classical definition of the term); so I come at this from a position of support of Mr. Bush. I don't want to read your mind, but I intrepret your words to define "Vets" as the discracefull way many Americans of my generation treated the returning Vietnam Vets, (as WW2 Vets like my father were treated very differently). America has always disliked war, and it has never been easy for any US President to take the country to war, or to maintain political support while executing said war. Abraham Lincoln, (war between the states), was very unpopular and was assasinated to end his term, (though history has correctly judged him to be one of our very best). Harry Truman, (end of WW2 and Korean War) was another who was very unpopular when serving to have history judge him quite favorably. This situation became real bad in the 60s and 70s, and one political party rode the "wave" in the mid 70s and forced the humiliation of the USA by cutting off funds and turning our previous allies over to the Communists. That party had great sucess in the late 1970s to the detriment of this great country, (just look at how Jimmy Carter really messed us up and the world too). I think the problem then was the military draft, and that fueled many of my contemporaries to become anti-war/anti-American. My contemporaries are now in the Government, and dominate most of the domestic media, and the result is a relentless drum beat that is anti war, and also very anti-American. I admire George Bush for standing up to them last night and letting the the world know that he intends to try to win. I wish him luck and I will support our effort to the extent I can as a patriotic American, (although it is hard to be optimistic as most Americans have not sacrificed and are "tired" of the war that has been covered in a very bad light, and the rest of the world seems to like OBL much more then George W Bush). Respectfully, JR (sorry I can't spell)

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

In a nutshell, it is the belief of many that our President entered his office with a predetermination to get Sadaam Hussein for purely personal reasons. Many believe that he used the attacks on New York and Washington by a handful middle eastern fanatics to give him an excuse to show-up his father who did not take-out Hussein after he invaded Kuwait and was beaten back in the first Persian Gulf War. Many believe that he used certain intelligence to bolster his position, swept intelligence that opposed his reasoning under the rug, and fabricated intelligence to prey on the emotions of a nation in shock and grief to back him in his crusade. Many believe that anybody that worked for him that did not agree with him were of no use to him, so he fired them and found people to go along with him to replace them.

Many believe that Vice President **** Cheney, War Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and head advisor Karl Rove influenced the President and misled him into believing that Iraq would greet our troops with flowers and cheers, form a peaceful democratic government, and sell thier oil to the US at a discount. Many believe that this led to delusions of a success that simply was not happening due to centuries-old disputes and animosities between religious and political factions in an unstable region. He suffered a bad defeat when his party became outnumbered in our last major election. He seems to have awaken to what has tanspired and is just now realizing that he created quite a mess.

Last night he gave a speech where he seemed to finally recognize what is really happening over there and appeared to take some responsibility for mistakes for the first time in his Presidency. Until now he has been in total denial of the actual situation and was completely unwilling to admit any mistakes whatsoever. He still has a long way to go, but hopefully he is finally on the right track, and hopefully it hasn't come too late.

Andrew, Willy is an articulate "Ace" marine mechanic, and he has given you a great summary of the American Liberal's positions. Notice how the Liberals tend to "read minds". There is little or zero proof of the positions stated in his reply, but that is the standard rhetoric of the American left that dominates the US media. Respectfully JR

 

[rodbolt]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

oldmercsrule
unfourtunatly seems many of the same draft dodgers are in the current administration as well.
I am with PW2, I watched the speech, it directly translated into stay the course.
if maybe this ill planned war had ben started with an invasion/security force level above 350,000 troops it may have turned out a bit different.
however 4 years of poor planning and living in a bubble has most likly precluded anything but a paper victory.

I dont see why we did not go after the snakes head in 01.
we all know where the terrorists came from and more importantly where the MONEY came from.
all we have done is to add some maryters and a recuit training system for further terror.
seems no one can or will answer why we did not attack the source in 01 or 02.
no one on iboats has said anything either since I have posted in 03.

most of us that served in the US military in the late 80,s through the mid ninties and that have read some of the modern history of that reagion of the world knew the current administration was lying to us and the world about WMD´'s. between isreal in the mid 80's and the first gulf war we eliminated Iraqs wmd program.

that reagion has has several democratic and democratically elected governments in the past. what happened to each and every one? why?.
same as why the new one is doomed to fail as well.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

oldmercsrule
unfourtunatly seems many of the same draft dodgers are in the current administration as well.
I am with PW2, I watched the speech, it directly translated into stay the course.
if maybe this ill planned war had ben started with an invasion/security force level above 350,000 troops it may have turned out a bit different.
however 4 years of poor planning and living in a bubble has most likly precluded anything but a paper victory.

I dont see why we did not go after the snakes head in 01.

Who is the "Snakes head"?

we all know where the terrorists came from and more importantly where the MONEY came from.

I sure don't know where: please share.

all we have done is to add some maryters and a recuit training system for further terror.
seems no one can or will answer why we did not attack the source in 01 or 02.
no one on iboats has said anything either since I have posted in 03.

most of us that served in the US military in the late 80,s through the mid ninties and that have read some of the modern history of that reagion of the world knew the current administration was lying to us and the world about WMD´'s. between isreal in the mid 80's and the first gulf war we eliminated Iraqs wmd program.

You knew more that all of the world's intelligence agencies? WOW, you need to apply to be the head of the CIA!!!!
that reagion has has several democratic and democratically elected governments in the past. what happened to each and every one? why?.
same as why the new one is doomed to fail as well.

Please name one, (not Isreal).

Hey Rodbolt, Thanks for serving our county! I don't mean to be a smart a...., but I really want the specific answers so I will also know what everybody else does. Respectfully, (and I mean it) JR

 

[JasonJ]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Oldmerc, I see nothing in Willy's post that resembles mind reading. He was simply stating what a significant amount of people believe. it is no different that those who belive in God, or that one day iPods will rule the earth and we will be their slaves. Its just beliefs, there is no right or wrong.

And you are right, there is little proof, just a lot of speculation based on how things appear. While I have always had little support for the war, I am open minded enough to accept and hope that there will be a good end. Sometimes that good ending requires a bad middle, and I can live with that. I just think there are some that also believe that there won't be anything but a good end, and I think that is naive as well.

While I think we all hope the latest strategy in Iraq will work, it also should be considered that, despite eveyones best intentions, it might fail no matter how much we support it. That is life. We can't just live on wishful thinking, we have to accept that sometimes we fail.

Andrew, I accept your opinion that the prez has lost the plot, but I do not agree with that opinion. I have been vocal with my lack of support for the war, but being a veteran of 11 years, I also know that there are things that happen that the media doesn't always know about. I am open to the possibility that there is more to what is happening than what we see on the news, there is a big picture. The media spins it's information for entertainment purposes and rating, so you have to take anything they say with a grain of salt.

Yes, I feel there were a lot of mistakes, but there are always mistakes during a war. What makes the mistakes in this war stand out is the vast opinion that we should not have done it in the first place. That can have a powerful influence on how a person looks at something like this, and for some people, this opinion will never allow them to accept the possibility that this war may have been a good thing.

I can't say one way or the other that I will ever fully support this war, but as the big picture evolves, especially with Iran, my mindset on this war is evolving as well. I am open to any and all information, and if a year or two or five years from now it turns out that this war was the best thing ever, then I will gladly admit that my initial thinking was flawed. That is called being open minded and fair.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

oldmercs
read some and you will know.
a good place to start is with the IG reports to congress.
I cant manipulate this computer as well as you put I can read.

and yes, most of the worlds intelligence agencies knew the current admin was lying. thats why we had to brow beat what few allies actually supplied troops and why most of our allies troops stay out of danger.

but its all in various reports,one is the 9/11 report as to what state sponsered the 9/11 and where the money came from.

I bet ya cant even say what event took place in the 80´s that put a hurting on Iraq´s nuke program.

I did not pay much attention to it until the late 80´s when it dawned on me I may go have to die in some desert, so I started reading how we got to where we are and why.
its nasty reading and you will NOT find it in a high school text book.
but I guess your of the same crowd that believes saddam gassed his"own" people on a whim one day.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Jason: Thanks for your service to our country. Here is what Willy, (a very articulate "Ace" mechanic stated that I characterize as based on mind reading, [and you call speculation]). There is no possible way to know these things for sure with out being inside the person's skin, or having a confession in clear terms. There has never been any proof or confession of these well known Liberal 'facts' that WbW recites in an excellent presentation to Andrew!
#1 belief of many that our President entered his office with a predetermination to get Sadaam Hussein for purely personal reasons. Can't possibly know this often repeated Liberal 'fact'.
#2 Many believe that he used the attacks on New York and Washington by a handful middle eastern fanatics to give him an excuse to show-up his father who did not take-out Hussein after he invaded Kuwait and was beaten back in the first Persian Gulf War. Again this 'fact' often repeated by Libs can not be known unless you read minds.
#3 Many believe that he used certain intelligence to bolster his position, swept intelligence that opposed his reasoning under the rug, and fabricated intelligence to prey on the emotions of a nation in shock and grief to back him in his crusade. This Liberal 'fact' has been disproven as much as it is possible to disprove mind reading. All of the world's major intelligence agencies had what they thought were allarming signals from Iraq. In a world with 6 Billion people, many apposed to war (ANY WAR FOR ANY REASON). Only GW BUSH knows for sure what he thought.
#4 Many believe that anybody that worked for him that did not agree with him were of no use to him, so he fired them and found people to go along with him to replace them. Again Liberials can't prove this, and most CEOs want articulate opposing views, and fire incompetants, more mind reading here.

#5 Many believe that Vice President **** Cheney, War Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and head advisor Karl Rove influenced the President and misled him into believing that Iraq would greet our troops with flowers and cheers, form a peaceful democratic government, and sell thier oil to the US at a discount. Not only do Liberals think they can read minds, but they feel and state repeatidly that most Conservative Republicans are STUPID. Reagan was ridiculed in this same fashon.
#6 Many believe that this led to delusions of a success that simply was not happening due to centuries-old disputes and animosities between religious and political factions in an unstable region. More Liberal Psychoanalysis and mind reading, no way to prove, Believers? YES: Willy is right about the believers.


Last night he gave a speech where he seemed to finally recognize what is really happening over there and appeared to take some responsibility for mistakes for the first time in his Presidency. Willy is ignoring past Bush statements.
Until now he has been in total denial of the actual situation and was completely unwilling to admit any mistakes whatsoever. More psychoanalysis by WbW, President Bush is much more pragmatic then this statement would lead you to believe.
Respectfully JR

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Rodbolt states, (as a reply to JR's questions):
"read some and you will know".



Rodbolt, I read also, (but you and I could read the same thing and come away with very different takes on what was said). You made some very straight forward statements that fly in the face of what I have learned from reading and observation. Please just state them so I don't have to guess what you mean. I am not a mind reader. Thanks for your reply, Respectfully JR

 

[aspeck]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Andrew, good questions, mate. Willy gave an interesting response from one who leans to the left. One that leans to the right could right almost the complete opposite to what he wrote, however:

In a nutshell, it is the belief of many that our President entered his office with a predetermination to do the right things once in office and return the United States to a position of dignity and power. Many believe that the attacks on New York and Washington by a handful middle eastern fanatics changed his focus dramatically and forced him to move the nation in a direction that he did not want to go. After soothing and healing the nation, he turned his attention on the perpetrators of the hienous act. Using the advice of many, and the intellegence that was given to him, he struck a course to thwart terrorism and to make sure that we never felt in on these shores again.

Many believe that Vice President **** Cheney, War Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, head advisor Karl Rove, and others influenced the President and led him into believing that Iraq would greet our troops with flowers and cheers, and form a peaceful democratic government. This band of advisors was collecting the best intel possible, and we did see cheers. However the deep seated civil prejudices of the country were, unfortunately underestimated.

Last night he gave a speech where he recognized what is really happening over there and took responsibility for mistakes in his Presidency.

It is a difficult job, but domestically, we have low unemployment, and the stock market and economy appear robust. The conservative would say that 911 derailed many of the things that our President intended to do domestically, taking time, attention, and finances to fight terror and protect our borders instead of focusing on domestic affairs.

Personally, my views are kind of all over this map. Many of the above I agree with, some I do not. However, I would NOT want to be in his shoes. I think this President has had more on his plate than any other President. Some might have been by his own doing, but it was still on his plate and he has had to deal with it. From war to natural disasters and local governments wanting the federal government to step in and get busy, but never asking for help (our government is set up that way so the Federal Government won't over step their bounds). Nope, don't want his job.

 

[jtexas]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

mindreading? you get it from both sides. you get it here on this forum. type something critical of the administration, you get informed of how much you hate the President. and how much you hate America. and how all democrats hope America is defeated in Iraq. on and on and on. politics as usual.

 

[treedancer]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

well said aspeck.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

well said aspeck.

Agreed, JR

 

[Fly Rod]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Hey rodbolt, if you are talking about the gasing of the Kurds in the 80's, then I would say that they weren't his people, Sadam was a sunni. 2nd, how could he have gased 60,000 kurds women and children when it is known by the far left liberals, that he did not have any weapons of mass destruction.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Uh, Flyrod....
It is well known that Ronald Raygun supplied the gas to Saddy.....:$........JK