At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

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nymack66

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Thanks Guys for the kind words..Yes I do care and cover my Boat from the elements. So far she is holding up pretty good.
Here is a picture of the Gun used ...
 

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Yacht Dr.

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

IMHO..that setup is not correct for a Full spray of gel...

You dont even have a cheater valve on the end..

When your spraying Gallons of gel .. that setup is good for small sprays..not full sprays IMO..

I could be wrong..

YD.
 

nymack66

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Here are some pictures of the Hull with the Gel cured no sanding or polishing done. In one photo see the sag of the Gel coat? I ran out of time and the temperature dropped on us really fast not to mentioned the moisture level was way up. I tried to save it by using a heater but it was 2 late for this side. I basically let it cured sand it down and re-shot it the next day. The photo of the splash well is after buffing with the products I mentioned..
 

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morebass 17

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

with all the info provided ive decided to use a pressure pot setup with a gun tip size of 1.8mm. I am also going to have a HVLP gravity gun on standby with a 2mm tip, I am having a cheap HVLP on standby just in case the gel starts to set in the pressure pot before I have a chance to flush it out.

Regarding the compressor - I am going with a 80CFM industrial compressor, which I will hire for the weekend.

The gelcoat shoot is scheduled for next weekend, I have more sanding / fairing work to do, but hopefully I'll have this finished in time for the weekend.

mymack66 , I am really impressed with the finish you managed to get with the tool's / materials that you mentioned, hopefully I will not have a lot of sanding like you, but since I have no luck whatsoever I will most likely have to go through the grits ( 400 - 1200 grit ) before I will be able to use a buffing compound, but fingers crossed !! As mentioned I am going to have a HVLP gravity feed as backup, if I do get to use it for the shoot then I will let you know how it went.

YD , Thanks for the info again. Do you have any advise on recomended pot & gun pressure. I know this will vary with the different viscosity of gel out there , but just a rough guide would be great.
 

proshadetree

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Are you sure you want a standard gun with a 2.0 tip? I tried shooting gell with a 2.5 and it was not even close to big enough.
 

nymack66

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

"Regarding the compressor - I am going with a 80CFM industrial compressor, which I will hire for the weekend.

The gelcoat shoot is scheduled for next weekend, I have more sanding / fairing work to do, but hopefully I'll have this finished in time for the weekend. "

Please take your time and plan well, You can expect the results you see or better, success is deliberate its no surprise.
Please be sure to use a good air filter/drier on that compressor no moisture or foreign particles in your shoot to compromise the gel. When spraying stop and check your work. I practice on my transom because it was a flat area to sand off and start over, I did the roller brush method, then the roll and tip both was not what I wanted then I finally the spray ...
Keep us posted and good luck you will nail it...
If gonna use the HVLP be sure to regulate the air down to 50/60 LBS is where I hover around. I had a bad experience with the pressure pot. I am still willing to give a shot again someday. In other words not because it did not work for me means it will not work for you. I was struggling with temperature control in a bug infested driveway in Florida oh did I mentioned humidity capital of the world...
 

morebass 17

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Are you sure you want a standard gun with a 2.0 tip? I tried shooting gell with a 2.5 and it was not even close to big enough.

proshadetree, I would prefer to use a 2.5mm or larger, I can't seem to get a hold of one here in time for my shoot, The biggest I can get is the 2.0mm or I could prob get a gelcoat gun but these are a bit too expensive just to be used as a backup.

If the pressure pot setup fails on me and I have to use the 2.0mm Hvlp I will prob have to thin the gel considerably ,not exceeding the 10% though referred to by the experts on this thread. Although this is still not ideal , I am sure it will be better than applying with brush and roller though, fingers crossed I don't have to use it.
 

morebass 17

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

"Regarding the compressor - I am going with a 80CFM industrial compressor, which I will hire for the weekend.

The gelcoat shoot is scheduled for next weekend, I have more sanding / fairing work to do, but hopefully I'll have this finished in time for the weekend. "

Please take your time and plan well, You can expect the results you see or better, success is deliberate its no surprise.
Please be sure to use a good air filter/drier on that compressor no moisture or foreign particles in your shoot to compromise the gel. When spraying stop and check your work. I practice on my transom because it was a flat area to sand off and start over, I did the roller brush method, then the roll and tip both was not what I wanted then I finally the spray ...
Keep us posted and good luck you will nail it...
If gonna use the HVLP be sure to regulate the air down to 50/60 LBS is where I hover around. I had a bad experience with the pressure pot. I am still willing to give a shot again someday. In other words not because it did not work for me means it will not work for you. I was struggling with temperature control in a bug infested driveway in Florida oh did I mentioned humidity capital of the world...

nymack66 , thanks for the advise , I wish I practiced on the transom now, Oh well we learn by our mistakes, Although it's not been a complete waste of time as I am still left with a good layer of gel below the waterline after sanding.
I will be using a good filter, especially with using a hired compressor, check out the following links for the items I will be using.

compressor - http://www.martinplanthire.co.uk/index.php/product/diesel-compressor
filter / moisture seperator - http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/clarke-fr2-filter-regulator?da=1&TC=RV-000210802
pressure pot - http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cpp2-pressurised-paint-container
compatible spray gun - http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/pro-18c-spray-gun
HVLP spray gun - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-HVLP-GRAV...&otn=5&po=LVI&ps=63&clkid=8189021213178922641

They are all relatively cheap, but they will only be getting used once, so i am pretty sure they will do the job.
 

morebass 17

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Any standard gun will work with those hose fittings.

Its the tip size you need to worry about. Just ordering up without knowing what tip it has could end up being a waste of money.

1.8mm is a Binks 66 tip size.

YD.

Thanks again YD. I am buying the pressure pot from machinemart, I contacted them to ask what guns they have that would be compatible, the biggest they have is 1.8mm.
Hopefully this will do the trick.
 

Yacht Dr.

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Its what I have used going back to 1989 ..

Pressure pot pressure will depend on how thin you have the gel ( normally I set to about 10-12 psi at the pot ).

Air pressure I never look at..its a gun to gun thing.. just adjust for your fan and fluid settings.

As I suggested before..get some cheapo latex paint..test with that first.

Set the pot at 10 psi..then set your Fan ( top knob on the gun ) .. then set your fluid needle on the gun ( the lower knob just above your hand crotch ) .. then set your cheater valve to how much air it takes at the head to atomize the paint . .. work your air and fluid knob untill your satisfied with air pressure ( overspray ) and fluid layout.

This Air to Fluid layout pattern is not as fine as when working with paint..you want as much material with the biggest fan..with the Lowest air pressure at the tip :)

Hope this helps..kinda hard to type someone into how to setup there gun and spray :) . Practice with water first to get a Good feeling of the pot/gun..then move to latex..flush Well with water then flush with Acetone.

YD.
 

Yacht Dr.

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Oh yea.. one othere thing.. dont set yourself on that 10% reduction. It may take more for you to spray this depending on the starting viscosity of the gel.

Reduce it untill its like house paint viscosity..

If its gonna take alot to reduce ..then you might want to add some Styrene for your reduction.

I allready know Im gonna get flamed for saying that..

For the flamers.. can you think of a better solution on how to apply a full gel Diy spray.. please post that when you start torching me ;) ..

YD.
 

morebass 17

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Thanks again YD. You have explained it in so much detail that I feel confident in taking this on now. Although others have said not to exceed a 10% thinning ratio I realize it may not be possible, I will obviously try and keep within the 10% but if I have to I will do what you suggest, Unless as you say if someone else has a better solution.
I bought the pressure pot setup and practiced with just water at the moment, I will practice some more with paint just to get the feel for it.
 

Yacht Dr.

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

No problemo :)

Rember to flush the gun with water Before And After you spray your house paint...then final flush with acetone when your all done.

YD.

PS. Im assuming your using water based paint ..
 

morebass 17

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

YD.

I was planning on spraying some International Toplac as I already have loads of this paint and there is a couple of things i need painted anyway. Is this a bad idea?

Is the water flushing only needed with the house paint or should I do this with any paint and also the gelcoat? sorry if this is a silly question.
 

morebass 17

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Right, just a little update, not as much progress as i wanted though. It looks as if I may have to postpone the shoot for a little while. I'm working 7 days a week just now so i'm not getting any time on the boat. The gelcoat probably won't be getting done untill 2 weeks time.
I suppose this gives me more time to make sure the hull is preped & faired properly. I have only managed to sand one side, and its looking not bad, still some more fairing work to do though. I bought the pressure pot setup and hoses and a filter, I've been practicing with this just to get the feel for it, and I feel quite confident I can pull it off. Here's a couple of pics of were I am at. And also a couple of the setup I am going to use.

PICT0814.jpg


PICT0815.jpg


PICT0819.jpg
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
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11,527
Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

YD.

I was planning on spraying some International Toplac as I already have loads of this paint and there is a couple of things i need painted anyway. Is this a bad idea?

Is the water flushing only needed with the house paint or should I do this with any paint and also the gelcoat? sorry if this is a silly question.

Water was mentioned because most house paints are latex based and water is used for clean up, water will only create problems if used with other types of paint.

The areas where you sanded back down to raw glass will need to be pre-coated before spraying the gel coat. Raw glass will have small pin holes and other small imperfections that may not be covered easily and create defects in the finished surface. The squeegee method works well to pre-coat these spots.
 

erikgreen

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Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Well, I'm late to the party, but I'll add in a couple comments here.

First, I'm sure you've been told, but gelcoat isn't meant for application like you (or honestly oops) have done it. It's meant for use as the first (outer) layer in a molded hull or part. Also (I'll speak heresy here for some) it's not the best (hardest, longest lasting, best looking) coating for a boat hull. It's used the most by manufacturers because it's cheap and in a mold requires little finishing, making it even cheaper. It's a very good coating, but there are better ones, and certainly easier ones to apply when you're not molding a hull.

One off boats professionally made (like large yachts or custom built boats) that aren't made in a mass production mold aren't usually gelcoated because it's easier (again cheaper) to get a top quality long lasting finish with a high quality paint like a two part LPU or epoxy.

But, for the rest of this post I'll assume you really, really enjoy sanding and have built up significant biceps with the prep work that you wish to maintain going forward, and you will therefore use gelcoat which you will sand, sand, and wet sand, then polish with a cutting compound and buff, then wax.

If you're going to the trouble and expense of applying it at all, do it the right way. Pro boat builders spray it into molds with what's called a "dump gun", which is a spray gun with a very large tip and a short path between cup and nozzle. There is a fairly cheap model of dump gun that works well, sold under a number of brand names world wide. Here's an example link:

http://www.uscomposites.com/equipment.html

It uses paper sleeves inside a plastic cup for very easy cleanup, requires little to no thinning of the gel coat mix for maximum protection, and has a short (about 1 cm) path for the gelcoat to take to the nozzle, again for easy spraying and easy clean-up.

Here's a video of one in use... with the one detail that you have to keep the nozzle angled up when not spraying, the gun works very well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho7NTbX26bY

Paint guns are made for paint... while the HF guns and similar work well for a small part or one time use, they are prone to clogging unless you thin the gel quite a lot, and when they do clog the gel has time to kick off, requiring you to stop work while you disassemble and clean out the gun. It's easy to break parts doing that.

Also, unless you work very very fast, you're going to end up at some point with a solid lump of gelcoat in that pressure pot and your sprayer. I wouldn't even try to mix gel in that quantity, limit yourself to a quart at a time or less, and remember you'll have to run acetone or similar through the gun between mixed batches, otherwise the remnant of the last pot full will harden in the gun and stop it up while you mix the next round. Unlike paint, running more of it through the gun won't keep what's in there already wet.

I don't envy the amount of sanding you will be doing. I consider that part worse than the prep work since it requires more concentration to do well.

Erik

PS: Stir the gelcoat about 4x as long as you think you need to... time yourself. Very easy to not mix it well enough.
 

morebass 17

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Messages
223
Re: At the gelcoat stage - help needed!!!

Well, I'm late to the party, but I'll add in a couple comments here.

First, I'm sure you've been told, but gelcoat isn't meant for application like you (or honestly oops) have done it. It's meant for use as the first (outer) layer in a molded hull or part. Also (I'll speak heresy here for some) it's not the best (hardest, longest lasting, best looking) coating for a boat hull. It's used the most by manufacturers because it's cheap and in a mold requires little finishing, making it even cheaper. It's a very good coating, but there are better ones, and certainly easier ones to apply when you're not molding a hull.

One off boats professionally made (like large yachts or custom built boats) that aren't made in a mass production mold aren't usually gelcoated because it's easier (again cheaper) to get a top quality long lasting finish with a high quality paint like a two part LPU or epoxy.

But, for the rest of this post I'll assume you really, really enjoy sanding and have built up significant biceps with the prep work that you wish to maintain going forward, and you will therefore use gelcoat which you will sand, sand, and wet sand, then polish with a cutting compound and buff, then wax.

If you're going to the trouble and expense of applying it at all, do it the right way. Pro boat builders spray it into molds with what's called a "dump gun", which is a spray gun with a very large tip and a short path between cup and nozzle. There is a fairly cheap model of dump gun that works well, sold under a number of brand names world wide. Here's an example link:

http://www.uscomposites.com/equipment.html

It uses paper sleeves inside a plastic cup for very easy cleanup, requires little to no thinning of the gel coat mix for maximum protection, and has a short (about 1 cm) path for the gelcoat to take to the nozzle, again for easy spraying and easy clean-up.

Here's a video of one in use... with the one detail that you have to keep the nozzle angled up when not spraying, the gun works very well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho7NTbX26bY

Paint guns are made for paint... while the HF guns and similar work well for a small part or one time use, they are prone to clogging unless you thin the gel quite a lot, and when they do clog the gel has time to kick off, requiring you to stop work while you disassemble and clean out the gun. It's easy to break parts doing that.

Also, unless you work very very fast, you're going to end up at some point with a solid lump of gelcoat in that pressure pot and your sprayer. I wouldn't even try to mix gel in that quantity, limit yourself to a quart at a time or less, and remember you'll have to run acetone or similar through the gun between mixed batches, otherwise the remnant of the last pot full will harden in the gun and stop it up while you mix the next round. Unlike paint, running more of it through the gun won't keep what's in there already wet.

I don't envy the amount of sanding you will be doing. I consider that part worse than the prep work since it requires more concentration to do well.

Erik

PS: Stir the gelcoat about 4x as long as you think you need to... time yourself. Very easy to not mix it well enough.

Thanks for the detailed info erikgreen. I will try and answer some of your points.

I done some research at the start of my project and one of the facts i learned was gelcoat is not designed for a top coat application. However i decided to use this because to use a good 2 part paint, it is not advisable for a typical Diyer (ME) to spray this stuff as it is extremely toxic and should only be sprayed in a dedicated enviroment. Please correct me if i am wrong though. I also understand there is a heap of sanding work involved, although I have been sanding with 60 - 120 grit for the last 18 months stripping paint and fairing the inside & out so it will actually be a pleasure to start moving up the grits and slowly but surely see a finish after all the hard work. I realize painting would be a whole load easier but I did not want to attempt to roll & tip a full hull, even although paint self levels to a degree I did'nt trust the finish I would get. At least with gelcoat I am in control of the finish as a lot of minor defects can be eliminated with going up through the grits. Also I think the feeling once it has been done will outweigh all the sanding & hard work I put into that step. Hope this makes sense and please remember this is probably not the correct way of doing this but I feel it is a method that will work for for me. ( Fingers crossed )

I was looking into buying a dump gun too, but not many people have recomended it over a pressure pot setup, not sure why this is as it would make sense to use a tool thats designed for the job. However as I have already purchased all my equipment I will use the pressure pot and just hope I can get similar results.

I will be taking your advise to mix smaller batches, although I will have to clean the gun/pot many more times it should reduce the chance of the gel curing in the system.

Thanks again erikgreen, Its good to have you on this thread.
 
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