bombardier / johnyrude

clanton

Rear Admiral
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Re: bombardier / johnyrude

The Hull Truth 31 August 2002. Page 3, Blackdog is poster.
 

Forktail

Ensign
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Feb 11, 2002
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Re: bombardier / johnyrude

I think Bombardier will improve and surpass anything that Johnyrude has ever done or manufactured. I'm willing to give them a little time to implement the technologies, engineering, marketing, quality craftsmanship, dealer network, training, and customer service that have made them what they are today. <br /><br />BombB knows what they are doing. It's my guess that BombB will have their own reliable, leading, high-tech outboard within 5 years. They will be good for Honda and Yamaha, and the consumer. <br /><br />Bombardier has always led in technologies and new features. Lets remember they have the serious means to get it done. <br /><br />Snowmobiles, groomers, watercraft, ATV's, boats, utility vehicles, railway and subway vehicles, and the 3rd largest aircraft manufacturer behind Boeing and Airbus with regional, business, amphibius, and ultra-light aircraft. Lets not leave out their famed Rotax 2-stroke engines. <br /><br />With such a good reputation and consumer demand for all their other products, why would their line of outboards be any different?<br /><br />My experience with Bombardier, the quality and performance of their products, and dealer warranty work has been excellent. I may even upgrade my Yamaha's to BombB's when they get OMC's mess straightened out. :) <br /><br />There are many reasons why OMC failed. A big one was thier products and lack of ability to keep up with other leaders and leading technology. BombB will take care of that.
 

Frank Martin

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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May 5, 2002
Messages
132
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

thanks for your coments forktail is it posible you work for bombardier ? they might very well be the world leader in technology but in my humble opinon they are verry poor at dealing with hard working little dealers like ours not to mention the warenty and other program problems i have had personaly with them . they can help themselves and there dealers by just treating people fairly and honestly i belive this is as much a part of success as building a world class high tech motor .
 

Forktail

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Feb 11, 2002
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977
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

Sorry, I don't work for Bombardier. I do however own, and have owned, many of their products over the years. I've had great success with their warranty and fairness.<br /><br />For example, I own a unique Bombardier powered jet boat. It has a rare Model 1976 Type 637 cc Rotax with Bing carburetors and a jet pump fed wet manifold. Only a few were ever made. I needed a few minor parts but could not find them through dealers like yourself. To make a long story short, Bombardier hooked me up directly with a fellow in Austria (where Bombardier makes Rotax's) named Mario Gebetshuber. Mario not only communicated with me in translated Austrian, but unbeknown to me sent enough parts to me to totally rebuild two of these engines. All for $50 including shipping from Austria. BombB even included the parts and owner's manuals with a little letter of history on the engine!<br /><br />Another example was my 1997 500 cc Ski-doo Summit. I had serious carburetor icing problems. Bombardier engineering communicated with me directly on several occassions concerning my problem and eventually initiated an update to the snowmobile solving this problem. Several of my Ski-doo snowmobiles have had factory recalls and service bulletins that were performed immediately and without question. Warranty work, although uncommon, has always been effortless.<br /><br />Warranty work on my Bombardier 4-wheeler has been no problem, no hassle. Actually, I abused the suspension, but they repaired it within 2 days no questions asked.<br /><br />I could go on with my Sea-doo's and even my Rotax powered Kit Fox. Getting parts, getting service, and getting free warranty repairs have been a great experience. I did have one bad experience with a local dealer not wanting to cover a warranty repair. I contacted Bombardier directly and they took care of it immediately, reprimanding the dealership.<br /><br />You need to realize that Bombardier is not going to do things like Johnyrude did. Especially with dealers. I believe part of the reason Johnyrude went out of business is because of their spread out, mom and pop, untrained dealer network. I'm not saying yours falls in this category, but Bombardier is particular about who sells their products, how they are sold, how they are serviced, how they are trained, how they hold inventory, and how they are financed. It obviously works for them.<br /><br />There is more to Bombardier than just "building a world class high tech motor".....like having world class high tech dealers. And nothing personal, but a dealer that spells warranty "warenty" is probably not one of them that Bombardier or consumers want. :) <br /><br />Get the training, equipment, inventory, and related sales numbers and you will make it with BombB. Eventually their products will sell themselves and you'll be high on the hog. If you are truly a "hard working little dealer", you'll do just fine.
 

ob

Admiral
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Aug 16, 2002
Messages
6,992
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

Nothing personal ,however proper grammar should read eventually the product line would sell "itself.";or the "products"would sell themselves.Product in singular form can only be followed by "itself"unless used in conjunction with a plural descriptive. Just joking. Couldn't resist.
 

Frank Martin

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
May 5, 2002
Messages
132
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

just a recent example of bombardiere warenty on a 2002 225 bombardiere . what would you consider a engine used on the evestart series bass tounamet by a retired banker that loves to fish and fishes just about everyday tournaments on weekends . Is this a personel use producy or a comercial use product ? bombardiere is trying to say this is a comercial aplication and this customer is not intitled to his power boost rebate or any warenty past the ccomercial period . Or how obout a old man who buys a evienrude 10 2000 year model granted this is a old omc product but it was purchaded after the takeover was complete and bomb sent out the news (IN LETTER FORM) that they where going to stand behind the warenty completely , well when this thing blows a top rod the best they could do was a flagship rebuilt powerhead they said this customer was not due a new powerhead and had to wait 6 months to get that . this is not the old omc this is bombardiere and im not a gambling man but i will bet money neither of these two customers of mine will ever be back in my shop to buy a bombardiere product any time soon .but forktail please dont misunderstand i hope they get it together i have spent the money on training and tools this is a big part of my frustration i dont want to feel like i wasted two weeks a year for the last 20 years going to waukeegan to school to have it end like this not to mention all the special tools manuals ect.And by the way All replys are welcome especialy the ones on gramer and spelling KUZ WE DOT CARE ABOUT THAT ANYWHO !! Realy thanks for all your coments!
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

The banker story doesn't sound right. First, why do they think that that it is a "commercial" motor? Who told them about a tournament banker? How is it registered? If it is not income producing, it is a personal use product.<br /><br />My tournament customers never had a problem, and, how does Bombardier know?
 

clanton

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Messages
4,876
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

Omc Frank, you know there are other companies that make outboard motors. I would cut a deal with one of them and forget Johnson/Evinrude except for repair and move the parts I had in stock. The largest OMC dealer here dropped them 4/5 years ago and went to Honda. One other dealer is selling all brands, one other dealer went Yamaha.
 

Forktail

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Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

omc frank asked, "Is this a personel use producy or a comercial use product ?"<br /><br />It all depends on how the outboard was originally purchased and registered by the selling dealer. Outboards can be purchased from dealers at factory commercial discounts for uses such as guiding, competition, business, etc. The outboard will come with a different, and usually shortened warranty and will generally exclude all consumer "rebates". This is basic stuff a dealer should know, or at least should be able to find out.<br /><br />Even if the 225 hp wasn't purchased under this program, the fact that the guy is a retired banker is irrelevant. He uses the outboard in competivive $ tournements like the Everstart Series Bass Tourny and other $ tournaments every weekend. His warranty applies accordingly. Rules are rules and they apply fairly and consistantly to all.<br /><br />And it was a good point about how Bombardier found out how the outboard was being used. For all they knew (unless registered under commercial discount), the outboard was owned by Joe Blow average fisherman. Unless the owner talked directly with Bombardier, the dealer must have mentioned how it was used.<br /><br />The 10 hp example doesn't fly either. When the transmission went out in my new Ford truck it did not get replaced with a brand new one. It got a factory rebuilt. Same with the rear end in my Chev. Rebuild. That's the way it works. Nothing in these warranties say parts will be replaced with brand new ones. It just says "replaced or repaired". Sometimes factory rebuilds address or update any problems with the "new" products and are actually better. Waiting 6 months doesn't make sense either. Bombardier Fed-Ex'd a complete brand new drop in 700cc snowmobile engine to my dealer within 2 days. Maybe the outboard dealer's communication with Bombardier's warranty department isn't so good?<br /><br />"but forktail please dont misunderstand i hope they get it together..."<br /><br />I would say Bombardier does have it together. Their history and success proves that. It was OMC that did not have it together. And that is why they went out of business. As a dealer you may have liked "the old OMC", but it didn't work.<br /><br />Hang in there omc frank. If you can survive the transition I feel you will be glad you did. Bombardier will be successful and you will benefit. :)
 

ob

Admiral
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Aug 16, 2002
Messages
6,992
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

I will not deduct any points from your final grade as I see you edited your previous post . (eventually the product will sell themselves)
 

BillP

Captain
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

I sure hope Bombardier does get it straight, I really don't want to buy another Merc. Like Forktail says, they do make very reliable Rotax 2 & 4 strokes which power a lot of ultralight and experimental aircraft. Keep the mixture right and they are dependable. <br /> <br />Has anyone been able to bring up Bombardier's web site for the 2002 or 2003 outboards? The product link does not bring up their lineup of engines. It used to have them but now does nothing. I noticed the Evinrudes are DFI and Johnsons carbed. Warranty is longer for the Evinrude.
 

denniz

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
743
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

Hey Frank I think he works for bomb. too More of that company attitude. Maybe you should change your sales & name to MERC FRANK!!!HAH***
 

Frank Martin

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
May 5, 2002
Messages
132
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

Rod Knocking me and you think the same and i realy apreciate your light coments it actually sounds to me like he wrote the policy for bombardiere anyway if any one wants the name and phone number of the 72 year old man that spent most of his adult life repairing shoes for a living that traded in his 1957 evienrude 7.5 hp for that 2000 10hp for stroke evienrude that did most definatly waited 6 months for a powerhead they can decide for themselves what can fly and what canot ! All coments are apreciated if i agree with them or not! my whole point is i think bombardiere needs to lighten up a bit there hard nosed attitude is at the very least! slowing down there recovery . come on now a guy that makes a couple grand a year or a couple hundred a year fishing in tournaments who spends ten times that geting to the tournaments deserves less warenty than the guy that lives on a lake and him and his four teenage boys are out in the boat 6 days a week 8 hours a day fishing and sking
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

Thanks for the complements, but no I did not write the warranty policies. :) Instead I have a great deal of experience in purchasing outboards both commercially, and for personal use. I also have learned experience with factory warranty claims, warranty disputes, dispute settlement boards, warranty fraud, and lemon laws. Take that experience as you wish.<br /><br />So, was the 225 Bombardier purchased under the commercial plan or not? And how did Bombardier find out how the outboard was being used, from the dealer or owner? Would it be fair for Bombardier to ignore that this outboard was used for competition? Would it be fair to make a warranty exception to this customer and not all customers? What argument was used that this outboard should be repaired under basic warranty?<br /><br />"come on now a guy that makes a couple grand a year or a couple hundred a year fishing in tournaments who spends ten times that geting to the tournaments deserves less warenty than the guy that lives on a lake and him and his four teenage boys are out in the boat 6 days a week 8 hours a day fishing and sking"<br /><br />Yep. Purchasing an outboard under the discounted commercial plan or using the outboard for competition will result in a different warranty. That's the way it works. It's in your owner's manual and warranty guide.<br /><br />"waited 6 months for a powerhead"<br /><br />My BombB dealer can have a 2000 10 hp power head to me in under a week, and will order it today as a warranty claim, no questions asked. He'd be happy to do the warranty work. Let me know if you need it.<br /><br />"my whole point is i think bombardiere needs to lighten up a bit there hard nosed attitude is at the very least! slowing down there recovery ."<br /><br />I think your point is that you want Bombardier to do things like OMC did....a way that caused failure. Just because Bombardier wants reputable dealers with the financial backing to hold inventories and sell lots of outboards, it does not make them "hard nosed". It makes them smart.<br /><br />Sorry, but the warranty problems you posted seem to stem from the dealer if you ask me. It doesn't seem like this dealer is familiar with commercial vs. personal use warranty claims. And it doesn't seem like the dealer has helped the customer use the warranty dispute process on the 6 month wait example. <br /><br />Communication and rapport with BombB seems to be lacking here. But then again we have an ex-Johnyrude dealer unhappy with Bombardier, siting bad warranty coverage by them, and even offering a customers phone number on one of the most popular outboard sites on the web. I'm sure Bombardier will bend over backwards to be at your service.<br /><br />ob, you missed the point. Bombardier requires that warranty work be done by a certified trained professional. If that professional can't spell the word "warranty" on a warranty claim, it diminishes the warranty work deemed necessary. It leaves question as to if the warranty claim was diagnosed properly and if it was done by a trained professional. Bombardier, like myself, probably demands a little higher standard than OMC. And so should its customers. You can learn a lot quickly by just looking at an outboard shop's operation and reading a few work orders. When my mechanic fills out a warranty claim for me, I surely hope he's spelling the word warranty correctly. Otherwise I'm already at a disadvantage as a customer.
 

Scoop

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,158
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

The world of selling and servicing everything has changed. I have gone through the same exact things with the computer service department I run.<br /><br />1. I have to do so many warranty repairs per month. (I can do 10 times that number in non-warranty but it does not matter if I do not meet the minimum number of warranty repairs per month).<br />2. My customers have to return so many quality surveys to the manufacturers.<br />3. First time repair rates have to be high and I do not get paid for more than one service call in a month per machine even if it is a different problem.<br />4. Every technician has to be certified and be re-certified yearly.<br />5. I have to maintain a current repair literature subscription.<br />6. Very few extensions on warranties<br /><br />These changes are being made to reduce the number of dealers out there. It costs money to administer all the dealers including literature, making sure all techs are trained, and providing quality service. In addition, a dealer that has techs working on the same motors all the time can fix a problem faster and more accurately diagnose the problems. Margins on outboards are going down. Competition is fierce. All manufacturers are trying to cut costs and give the best service possible. The manufacturer will spend the money to have a representative go out and visit a big dealer that is selling and making a lot of money. If there are 100 dealers, the manufacturer may need 2 reps, if they have 20 larger dealers, they may only need one rep. The manufacturer will also fork out money to help the larger dealers with advertising and increasing business.<br /><br />Do I agree with the changes? Yes and no. I think there are great quality dealers that are small. There are bad dealers that are big. I agree that to survive in the business, Bombardier will need to cut the costs out of the old OMC. To stay competitive, they need to streamline or they will fail. Do I have a problem with the new requirements in my field? No, I already complied with all of them before except for the number of warranty repairs. Outboards are one of the last places I see brand loyalty, but that is going away and fast. Look at the posts! The dealer is the only way to differentiate their product. Bombardier will force some smaller dealers to go out of business. It will be harder and harder as a small dealer to remain authorized. The only way to stay in business is to grow and do a good job. This is the way of the world now, with the mergers, buyouts, and takeovers. Larger companies and less selection are the norm. If you have purchased a car lately, you will know that they are going through the same thing. They now coach you on how to answer the manufacturer’s survey. As a dealer, you need to develop a good relationship with the manufacturer. You need to grow and you need to provide excellent service. Good luck, it is a competitive world. Wait until direct to the consumer sales gets a foothold.
 

denniz

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
743
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

Forktail, No offense intended. Are you a dealer? or have you ever been one? Just curious
 

Forktail

Ensign
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Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

I agree Scoop. You make some very good points. Whether we like it or not, Bombardier is doing certain things for a reason, and their reasoning seems to work. I still feel Bombardier is a leader in quality manufacturing, engineering, technology, and customer service with a long background in experience. They didnt' get to where they are by dodging warranty claims. I am extremely happy with their products, and someday when the ripples (like this one) are gone from OMC, I may own one of their outboards.<br /><br />Sorry Rod, although I have been a dealer for other non-related products, I have never been a Bombardier or outboard dealer. <br /><br />In a past life I was a volunteer consumer advocate for warranty disputes. Mostly auto. It is my experience that 9 times out of 10, the manufacturer has no idea what has gone on, or is going on, at the dealer level. And not all dealers follow the rules, are fair to customers, understand the warranty process, or communicate that process properly to the manufacturer or the customer. When it all gets straightened out, the manufacturer will abide by it's warranty. They have to by law. For some reason customers feel like they are at the mercy of one dealership, and that dealership's opinion on warranty is gospal. Customers have rights. Those rights are spelled out in the warranty that they purchased with their outboard.<br /><br />As a guide, commercial fisherman and sportsman, I have purchased more outboards in my life than I can remember. I've had my share of warranty claims. Most of my problems with any of those claims have stemmed from dealers, not manufacturers. I currently run all Yamaha's because of the success I've had with the product. But their warranty service, at least at the dealer level, can leave a little to be desired. If Bombardier's warranty service mirrors thier own snowmobile, ATV and watercraft warranty service, then they'll have one up on the rest.<br /><br />And as computer service outfits come and go, I bet Scoop will make it. He'll adjust to changing times knowing that hanging on to past ways mean demise. Jump on the wagon, or get out of the way. Where will the conusmer and the mom and pop dealership end up? Who knows.<br /><br />Just my opinion. :)
 

Frank Martin

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
May 5, 2002
Messages
132
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

forktail thanks again for the help with the spellig thing again but you think my spelling is bad you should se me type! by the way I AM the dealer you are slaming between me and my dad we have at least one master tech. award every year since 1967 between outboards and sterndrives many more than most dealers around here have in buisness we have seen big dealers come and go and when the economy goes bad the tax man wants his money for the big fancy dealer 12 months a year when in the north here on south side of chicago we dont have enough snow to do the snowmobile thing basicly we have a nine month a year buisness we have to be doing something rite . and if your bomb dealer can get a new powerhead YES I DO NEED HIS NUMBER because bomb cant get me one because they are not macking them . maybe if you buy a new motor and it blows a rod in less than a year you would like it fixed with used parts rebuilt or not these are used parts . if you are not a dealer or a bombardiere sales person you should be because i sure cant sell that one to anyone around here and this means YOU ARE THE GREATEST if this is the point you where trying to make
 

ob

Admiral
Joined
Aug 16, 2002
Messages
6,992
Re: bombardier / johnyrude

Frank, apparently he doesn't realize that it's people like yourself who have put evinrude and johnson motors on the map.sure,bomb can move ahead but lest they forget who paved their way.seems like a lot of things are that way.no respect.
 
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