Bravo I Or Iii ??

[jaxnjil]

i am to the point of having to up-date the drive on our sea-ray 230 weekender with a 7.4 alpha 1
i was sure i wanted a b3 to eleminate wig-wag and back up straighter and to cruise with more ease and fuel efficiency.

i was talking to a dealer today that told me i should look at a bravo 1 because the 3 dosnt back up very well and allso takes more fuel because your pulling two props. he dosnt care for the 3 and dosnt recomend them unless you run twin engines and heavy boats.

i thought you got better fuel milage because you were able gain less slipage with the dule prop set up and allso would track straigher both directions because of the offset prop wash.

i am confused now and any and all coments and opnions will be welcome

had i listened to don i should have bought this boat with a 350 or found a 7.4 with a bravo drive. i dont mind changing the drive now but i want to make sure i get it right this time

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

You have a load of work ahead of you if you're going to swap to a bravo from an alpha! Everything from the engine back needs to be changed and 2 more holes drilled. I personally would just go with the B1 as the B3 isn't really going to see that much benefit on a 23ft boat. I don't know that the B3 "backs" worse than a B1, that seems to just be opinion. The extra expense of the B3 would also be a deterrent.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

i am to the point of having to up-date the drive on our sea-ray 230 weekender with a 7.4 alpha 1
i was sure i wanted a b3 to eleminate wig-wag and back up straighter and to cruise with more ease and fuel efficiency.

i was talking to a dealer today that told me i should look at a bravo 1 because the 3 dosnt back up very well and allso takes more fuel because your pulling two props. he dosnt care for the 3 and dosnt recomend them unless you run twin engines and heavy boats.

i thought you got better fuel milage because you were able gain less slipage with the dule prop set up and allso would track straigher both directions because of the offset prop wash.

i am confused now and any and all coments and opnions will be welcome

had i listened to don i should have bought this boat with a 350 or found a 7.4 with a bravo drive. i dont mind changing the drive now but i want to make sure i get it right this time

It sounds like the dealer has a Bravo I to sell you......


IMHO, he's full of barby strysand (very similar to catbox-sand.....)
The Bravo III backs just fine (better than a single prop)

The hole shot is FAR FAR better than with a single prop.

I used to get 60 mph with a single prop King Cobra and 340(crank)HP 460 at 5000 rpm and now I get 57mph at 4600 rpm with my 330(crank) HP 454 and Bravo III with 26p props. It accelerates better at ANY speed that it ever did even when new!!

You will get better mileage (in a planing type runabout hull) with the Bravo
III precisely because of the much lower slip (by nearly 1/2) (at 3000 RPM I get 30 mph at 10gal/hour....that's 3 mpg)


Now the cost of changing won't be cheap. you'll need a gimbal and drive. (check ebay for prices) the actual work involved is not all that hard if you have a suitable hoist to pull the engine. I did my King Kobra---Bravo swap all by myself in my own shop.


I'd get the Bravo III!

The only engine drive I would trade my 454 Bravo III for is a 496 Bravo III or Volvo 496 DP

Cheers,


Rick

 

[QC]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

B3's are superior up to 60 MPH, go for it if you want to spend that kind of money. They definitely back better I agree, the Dealer is full of Rotting Quaggas . . .

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

B3's are superior up to 60 MPH, go for it if you want to spend that kind of money. They definitely back better I agree, the Dealer is full of Rotting Quaggas . . .

Rotting Quaggas?

Now that's a good one!!!

 

[jaxnjil]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

thanks guys; we have allways had a good hole shot. down at powell and mead i dont have time to run the trim tabs down before its on plane. this and we have a real nice cruise speed at 30 mph at 3200 to 2700.
i was quite confused by the fellow i talked to this afternoon. this was the first and only time i had heard any thing like he was telling me.

looks like i can get into a b1 with every thing for the install for $5533. the only thing were having trouble finding in this package is the top tension baracket for the raw water pump.

add to that 400 or 500 to up grade to the b3. i would have to buy props and prop wrench for b3 on top of that. easy $1500 or more to go b3

i think i want the b3 but now the $$ are staring me in the face, i'm starting to cheep out and the b1 looks better
all my props would work with the b1. two of them are mirage IIs that are bravo props any way.

 

[jaxnjil]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

Rotting Quaggas

nasty i hope i dont smell them again

we are well within the 60 mph range. top speed has always been 43 mph no matter which lake or prop i had on. this is telling me something but i'm not sure what

 

[coastalcruiser]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

that dealer is saying that bravo 1 is for racing that what I was led to believe. here is what volvo says about duoprop.
http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/bra...nefits_of_duoprop/the_benefits_of_duoprop.htm

 

[180shabah]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

It sounds like the dealer has a Bravo I to sell you......

New dealer time...

 

[QC]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

that dealer is saying that bravo 1 is for racing

I agree, but I don't see where the dealer said that . . .

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

jax, you dealer is an idiot who knows nothing about Bravo 3 outdrives. They do indeed back up better than a single prop drive. They will get up on plane faster, and hold a lower planing speed than a single prop drive. They require less fuel to operate, since they don't work as hard and they slip less. Haulin has obviously never driven a 23' cruiser or cuddy style boat with a B3 on it, as opposed to a B1 or Alpha 1. A B3 is most certainly a worthwhile drive for a 23' boat.
The only two things a B3 doesn't do better than a B1: Top speed and eliminate Deep V wander. That's the back/forth at idle speeds. Don't expect that to go away. That's a function of the hull, not the prop.

 

[slasmith1]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

I have volvo duoprop drives but I love them so much I upgraded from a 24ft boat with 1 to a 32ft boat with 2 last year. if I can help it I will never own another single prop I/O the benifits described above are too great.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

I'll agree that it doesn't change the wandering. Mine did it with the King Cobra single prop and it does it pretty much the same with the Bravo III.

I originally went looking for a Bravo I and almost bought one.
Before I bought the 454/Bravo III, I found a 2003 model year 5.7L MPI (300 prop HP) closed cooled engine and drive combo. It had 400 (salt water) hours on it and it was being sold by the original owner who was removing it to replace with twin outboards (of all things!!)! .... I asked, ..... & I thought the guy was nuts!

He wanted $7500 for the whole setup and I offered $6000 (he turned me down) I was ready to up the offer to $6500 when I found the 454/B3 (with 122 hrs freshwater) for $6000 (and subsequently got for $5000) I really did not want anything that lived that long in salt.....

I had a lot of people tell me that the speed difference would only be about 5 mph but they didn't say much about the other performance.

The actual difference (other than the 3 mph top speed difference) between the similarly powered King Cobra was nothing short of spectacular. My FourWinns Liberator weighs about 4300 lbs with fuel and 3 people in it.

A 24' boat would absolutely benefit from the dual counter-rotating prop drive. It would be on plane much quicker with the B3 than with the B1.

You can buy props on ebay frequently for anywhere from $400-600. (I bought a set of 26p props new for $600 last year)


It will be a little bit more expensive.....But if you shop you can probably find a similar deal.


You probably will also be happy with a B1. But if you drove mine with the Cobra and then with the Bravo III you would know what I'm talking about.


Go out and test drive some similarly powered boats that have both and you'll see for yourself.


Cheers,


Rick

 

[jaxnjil]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

you guys are right on all accounts. the fellow i was talking to did have a smoken deal on a b1 he could let me have....his words.... when i told him i really thought i wanted the b3-- he could get one but i needed to understand that b1 was a real good deal and wouldnt last long.
i looked at the merc web sight and it do'es sound like b1 would be more suited to racing ect. rated at 100 pluse mph and the highest hp of the bravos.

i watched the guys down at the marina at mead and it seemed like the b3s on any boat other than the twin engine boats docked and got around easier.
i had a chance to test drive a maxum and an offer to go out and try one with a fellow docked there but wasnt comfortable at the helm of someone elses boat. it seemed like all the newer cruisers even the twin engine ones were running dule prop drives. i think the b3 would add the most value to our boat to.

i am going ahead with the b3. if i went with the b1 i know it would work fine to but i would wish and wonder what the b3 would have been like.


as a side note i had a fellow come up to my slip one day with a volvo SX, i hope that the right number volvo guys. we talked for 5 or so min. there was a slight breeze and he would jog from forward to reverse to stay in place. after my alpha and older r drive i was amazed at how smooth and quiet he could change gears.
will the cluthch on the bravos be this smooth?

 

[QC]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

Yes, the SX, Duo-props, Bravos 1, 2 and 3 all have cone clutches vs. dog type for Alpha's. No clacketty clack either.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

Yes, the SX, Duo-props, Bravos 1, 2 and 3 all have cone clutches vs. dog type for Alpha's. No clacketty clack either.

True, but the 2005 and later Bravos are smoother than the ones before that. So if the B3 you are getting is 05 or newer, you are gonna love the way it shifts.

 

[jaxnjil]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

i'm going to try one of these CPO drives. they are certified pre-owned, a new program that MerCruiser has started. These drives are NOT rebuilt. They are in pristine condition! They are sold with the same 1 year factory Warranty as any new MerCruiser drive. with the warranty and savings i dont see any problems. i think i'll go with the 2.20 ratio and now i have to figure out the prop pitch for 6000 ft elevation and a 5500 lb boat

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

The next question to ask is have you thought about what ratio you'll get?

If your engine is an older 454, what is your rated WOT RPM?

Mine is 4600 and the rev limiter is supposed to be set at 4700 (Thunderbird V ignition)

As such, with a limit of 4700 I am limited with ratio and prop pitch.

When I got my (1.81:1 ratio) Bravo III I maxed out at 4600+ with 24p props at about 55 mph.

Not bad but I could tell when I was up against the rev limiter. I switched to 26p props and was able to get 4600 at WOT and 57 mph. I still have an incredible holeshot.

Bravo III drives are available in 1.81, 2.00 and 2.20 ratios.

The 2.0 and 2.2:1 drives are usually installed in big cruisers and smaller boats with 5.7L engines that turn up to 5100 RPM or so.... The 1.81 drive is more suited to BBC engines that make more torque at a lower RPM...

Mine was installed in a 24' Bayliner cuddy (probably similar in size to your Weekender) The original owner told me it did about 55 mph with the 24p props. He never tried any other prop pitch because 24 worked good on his boat (which was about 600-700 lbs heavier and 3ft longer than my Lib)

I used a Prop-Slip calculator to get in the "ball park" with ratio and prop pitch. The 2.00 and 2.20 drives would have been FAR too low for my slow turning carbed 454 unless I wanted to change the ignition system and turn the engine well over rated red-line.....

If I ever rebuild and trick the engine or change it for a 502 etc that will turn faster, I could probably go up to about 5500 RPM and not break anything.


I am guessing that a 1.81:1 drive with 24p props would give you very similar performance as the previous owner of my engine/drive in the similar size boat he had.....

24p props seem to be the most plentiful on ebay.

EDIT: I just saw that you want to operate at 6000 MSL. That will change things. I don't think a 2.20 is required though. You could probably do it with 22p props on the 1.81 drive.

Certainly 2.00 might be OK. I think 2.20 might be a little low for when you want to operate at a lower alt.

I will be taking my boat to Ca this summer and we'll probably go to Tahoe. I am going to put the 24's on for Tahoe and see if that's low enough.

You do lose a lot of HP at 6000 though.


Good luck,


Rick

 

[180shabah]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

You do lose a lot of HP at 6000 though

Time for forced induction

 

[QC]

Re: Bravo I Or Iii ??

I heard Force OBs were carp . . .
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Sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself Ask Mrs. QC . . .