Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

rfdfirecaptain

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

You'd get the efficiency, lose the shifting mechanism, be able to locate the gas/diesel motor anywhere based on best weight distribution and be able to have closed circuit cooling.

At least I know others are thinking in the same direction as I am.

A lot of great input on this thread guys! Personally, I think it can be done and when it comes to fruition I am confident it will completely revolutionize the way we use our boats in addition to the amenities (creature comforts) that we have, or use onboard. Not to discard the valuable information presented by experts like QC and others. I think their points are completely valid. So then, you ask how do I believe this is possible if I am sitting on the fence? Well, I not sitting on the fence. I think is a matter of a missing a "bridge" (some technology) between this propulsion application (that is already in use elsewhere) and an application designed specifically for the boating industry.

Here is another reason why I have so much confidence. I have 2 sons, both with GPA?s just under 5.0. Very Intelligent. Both want to be design engineers and they have a passion for that industry and its future. Have you ever been looking for something and later found it was right under your nose the whole time? Didn?t you ask yourself how you overlooked it? My sons are always telling me how ?Necessity is the mother of invention? to which I reply ?Yeah, lazy people and poor people are usually the ones who have the ?necessity??. The point is these kids don?t know how to take ?no? for an answer when I say ?that can?t be done. Their reasoning skills and creativity have not been polluted like us old farts who ?do it that way because we always done it that way? and because we like it that way.

OK, so maybe not this year or even in the next 5 years, we?ll see this technology, but make no mistake it or something else that works just as well is coming. All we need is one ?design engineer? (either professional or shade tree) who loves boating and hates the high cost of fuel to step forward with their solution to the problem.

I?ll close by saying this. I believe the first boat was likely propelled by an ore that was held a lazy man who invented the sail. Don?t you think folks were shocked to see the steam powered and eventually combustion engine powered boat? Surely there were many who said, ?Oh that will never work?. Now we?ve got nuclear reactors onboard ships providing the power source. Why is it so hard to think the pleasure boating industry is not due for and will not soon see a new fuel saving propulsion technology. It?s not just the boasting industry. The aviation industry surely went though the same technology and nay-sayer issues along the way. If the pleasure boating industry doesn?t think outside the box and at least start working on this problem we might one day be able to delete all the iboat forums except for the Dockside Chat. Because if you can?t afford the fuel.... that?s right?. See you at the dock party! :(
 

QC

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

I think you are missing my point, and I hope you share this with your sons. Innovation ultimately requires a "why"? I am not suggesting that alternative technologies shouldn't be pursued for any application whether it be a spoon or a Space Shuttle. In both cases though you have to ask "why"? The answer is simple for the spoon, "hmmm, I guess there's no reason, "straw"? Oh yeah there is that alternative for some of the spoon's applications. Opportunity for additional designs? Maybe, but none come to mind, and no one is screaming for it anyways, lazy, poor or otherwise . . . Where's the market pull?

So then to boats, in this case pleasure craft. If your goal is fuel savings, but let's say you need 200 bhp to power a 20 footer for watersports and reasonably similar cruising to what we have today. That's the target market and application, and that's where this falls apart. That 200 bhp is available today and as is it is more efficient than using an electric drive with an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) driven generator. Basically in that example the electric motor is a transmission, problem is that it is less efficient than the existing mechanical transmission so that arrangement doesn't work. OK, how about a Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV)? This is the same ICE driven generator with the electric motor, but add Batteries so that you get some of your "fuel storage" from electricity that is generated by wind or water, or coal or gas or nuclear. Cool, and it is cheaper, so maybe we can make an economic and environmental case. I could sell both to the public. Awesome. So let's hit the drawing board:

Batteries - costly and heavy but available
Engine - still need to be able to produce 200 bhp at the prop, so we need around 250 at the engine, no horsepower savings from the batteries as we need range that they can't provide on their own. (my requirement for safety and practicality) same cost, same weight.
Generator - added cost and weight but available
Add electric motor - available and probably similar cost and weight as removed transmission so that one is a push

OK, so we can do this, but we have to add weight and cost, and as long as we are running on the batteries we could theoretically save some money. I will assert though that there is no chance of an economic payback because of the added cost items and the relatively low fuel use in a pleasure application.

So now we have determined we can do it. It has some negative cost implications, but there are some unique attributes, so let's define the market size. and what percentage we will get of it. I don't have the number, but let's say there are 100,000 ( I am guessing this is high) new pleasure boats sold per year. 90,000 are under 22 ft. 80,000 of those are sold to those who are cost conscious, so there are 10,000 left. Of those 9,000 are sold to those who want go fasts, this isn't one of those so that leaves 1000 units available to us. Now out of those 1,000 how many want a boat that is slower (added weight), more expensive by say $50,000, and is basically clean for an hour then it is a less efficient facsimile of what is available for a lot. I submit it is Bill Gates and seven of his friends. Total market 8 units per year.

Do a similar exercise for an all electric version and you probably sell 2.

And although I may be an old fart, this is how the vehicle business is done, and alternatives is what my company does. BTW on-highway is a market size of many times more and why all innovation is pretty much done there . . .
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

If the pleasure boating industry doesn?t think outside the box and at least start working on this problem we might one day be able to delete all the iboat forums except for the Dockside Chat. Because if you can?t afford the fuel.... that?s right?. See you at the dock party! :(

If the pleasure boat industry adopts current electric propulsion technology, most of us would be residing in DSC, as boats would become incredibly cost prohibitive to purchase. You could buy allot of gasoline even at 5 or 6 bucks a gallon for what the difference in cost would be between a comparatively powered electric VS fuel boat.

In order to make an electric boat feasible, battery storage capacity would need to increase exponentially. Battery weight, and total cost for this technology would need to decrease exponentially.

It's fun to muse, and think out of the box, but it all comes down to practicality and cost.
You cited past examples of going from oars, to sails, to steam, to IC, to nuclear. The difference between those and the current topic is that they were all vast improvements over the previous technology, who's draw backs were far outweighed by their benefits. During the 1950's-1960's several of the auto manufacturers started toying around with idea's of turbine, and nuclear powered cars. Could the technology work? Sure, was it feasible? No. Why? Because the draw backs outweighed the benefits.
In the current discussion, the only draw back to IC is the cost and availability of the fuel. The draw backs to electric is HP to weight ratio, capacity/range, and again most importantly cost.

You can call me a nay-sayer because I'm not onboard with one idea, I just consider my self a realist.
If I were to gaze into my crystal ball, and ask what is the future of pleasure boat propulsion, I would probably see boats with IC engines running on CNG, alcohol, or possibly hydrogen. Stern drive and inboard engines would be redesigned to something allot more compact and efficient than current engine technology, most of which hasn't changed much since it's initial design in the 50's or 60's. Of course there may be safety issues, and draw backs to using those fuels, but they would probably be allot easier and cheaper to overcome VS the challenges of going completely electric.

Just my 2?...
 

Yacht Dr.

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

I started a thread to find a credible and successful conversion from Gasoline to LNG or LPG in a pleasure craft. Questions and opinions arose about electrical propulsion for pleasure craft. So, I decided to start this thread to look into the feasibility of that idea.

We all know electrical motors are very powerful and can be engineered to run at variable speeds regardless of the load. In today?s world some electrical motors are designed to be intrinsically safe, water resistant and even corrosion resistant. If you look at the technology used by the rail industry and a train?s fuel efficiency (considering the load it is hauling) there is a question that?s begging to be asked. Why can?t engineers put this technology into pleasure craft boats at an affordable price?

So for all those who are experts on this subject let?s beat this one to death and just maybe an engineer snooping around this site will pick up on this thread and any ideas you have to make this a reality.

First off .. I think putting Huge/Massive tanks of LPG at fuel docks is one reason why the Mainstream Marine Engine is not set up for Propane ( they would have to be quite large if you think of a fuel dock ).

Secondly .. you can not get away from Friction on boats. You always have water friction. Its why you do not get 20-30 knots/Gal of fuel. Think of it as driving your RV up a steep hill in a head wind. That is what a boat is. You have a power plant the is doing the Same thing.. going upwind and up a hill .. But CONSTANTLY !!. Put your RV In one gear and drive that across the US and see how far that motor/belts/hoses/pumps..etc gets ya ..

A boat is a Boat .. it is Very different then a car or a train. Yes in some respects its the same..but the main respect is totally different.

Peace..

YD.
 

QC

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

A lightweight and affordable fuel cell would break this open. Must be wheeled vehicle first, and it will not be stored hydrogen, it will be a reformer and use another hydrocarbon, gasoline, diesel, NG, LP Ethanol etc. Not Hydrogen!!!

Hydrogen, the fuel of the future and it always will be . . .

Never say never, but not in our lifetimes, even SBL's . . . :eek:
 

rfdfirecaptain

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

QC, RogersJetboat454 and Yacht Dr.

Man I love a great discussion like this! I think you guys are all dead on with valid points based on what we know is available and capable of working today. I get that, but I am adding that I think there is a missing link that could change all of that, or at least challenge it. While I lack the expertise you have to speak on this subject I think a reasonably intelligent person would agree that the current trend in petroleum prices dictates that the pleasure boating industry is long overdue for a reform in propulsion systems. Not for speed, but for fuel conservation that results in an overall reduction in usage costs.

I can?t answer all your questions, but QC asked ?Why?? Well the simple answer is. If the current trend continues at some point gasoline prices will likely squeeze me out of boating. I have friends who have already made that decision while I just decided to use my boat less and spend more time at the dock, floating around or at anchor.

Sooner or later everyone will feel the pinch and now is the time to look ahead, brainstorm ideas, work up some possible designs, build the designs, test the designs, gather the data, analyze the data, redesign as necessary, build and market the technology. That alone will take years! Every day this industry does nothing is one more day that passes before we can affect change.

I realize this technology may not be for every type of pleasure boat especially the speedier boats. However, the typical 35?+ foot cruiser I think it would be a good place to start.

Like I said? I?m no expert, but I have an idea (an equipment layout) that I will post later tonight. I?m running short on time right now with kids about to get out of school.
 

rfdfirecaptain

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

A lightweight and affordable fuel cell would break this open. Must be wheeled vehicle first, and it will not be stored hydrogen, it will be a reformer and use another hydrocarbon, gasoline, diesel, NG, LP Ethanol etc. Not Hydrogen!!!

Hydrogen, the fuel of the future and it always will be . . .

Never say never, but not in our lifetimes, even SBL's . . . :eek:

Now there is the "logic" I'm looking for. We need that missing link to which ever route is chosen.

OK now do tell what an "SBL" is???

Oh yeah, I'm only 44... I sure hope so in MY lifetime! :)
 

rfdfirecaptain

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Now we're getting somewhere... You guys hammer it out and I'll post my idea later tonight. Be safe!
 

QC

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Those cars are based on using a natural gas reformer . . . That is Natural Gas fueled in effect. My comments about Hydrogen are in regards to "free" Hydrogen from water and some sort of magical Hydrogen Economy. So take this a step further, why reform Nat Gas to Hydrogen when you can store the Nat Gas more easily, and for less money?


smallboatlover (SBL) is one of our youngest members.
 

halfmoa

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

How about using wind energy to propell a boat. Maybe a big stick up in the air with cloth on it to capture the wind. Fasten some sort of cloth to it to make it more efficeint. No fuel, no batteries, no noise.

Come to think of it it has already been done.
BAhahahahaaaaa!!!
 

QC

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Yeah, I agree with most here too, but:

We could see a day when wind engergy is used to "crack" water to obtain the hydrogen and store it.
The problem with this, and it is one of the issues I have with Hydrogen, is whether it is wind or a flux capacitor, the resulting energy is not "free". Plug into the grid and you can sell it for X, that is the true cost (opportunity cost). The fact that it is used to crack Hydrogen doesn't negate this . . . so again, why?

The sole answer is that it is cleaner. Today's vehicles, even heavy trucks are so close to zero it really doesn't matter. The obvious omission here is CO2 and let's not go there. Will get this thread closed ;)

You bring up the time issue which is why I end up back at not in SBL's lifetime :)
 

rfdfirecaptain

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

OK, I know you all think I?m crazy, and I thank you for indulging me. Here is my idea. Again I am a firefighter, not an engineer so for the sake of discussion about my idea please assume the following

1. Assume that all the parts will fit into the boat?s engine compartment
2. Assume that specific adjustments to various parts would inevitably be needed based on many needed calculations that are not a part of this discussion
3. Assume that weight is not an issue
4. Speed and efficiency is not the immediate objective. Forward and reverse propulsion is the objective

1. Remove engine and transmission from the engine compartment leaving the stern drive mounted.
2. Install a variable speed electric motor with a spline shaft that will marry up to the stern drive
3. Install a small engine (of say 30 Hp) with a through hull exhaust system
4. Install a 10k watt generator

Will it work? If it would I estimate the Hp at the spline shaft to be about 13.5 Hp. I know that's not near enough, but you gotta start somewhere.
 

QC

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

3. Assume that weight is not an issue
4. Speed and efficiency is not the immediate objective. Forward and reverse propulsion is the objective

2. Install a variable speed electric motor with a spline shaft that will marry up to the stern drive
3. Install a small engine (of say 30 Hp) with a through hull exhaust system
4. Install a 10k watt generator

Will it work? If it would I estimate the Hp at the spline shaft to be about 13.5 Hp. I know that's not near enough, but you gotta start somewhere.
Why a 30 hp engine to drive a 10kW gen? Other than that, if you're happy with 4 MPH, then you're good to go.

Oh, oh, the engine needs to be marinized. What you really need is a simple marine generator.
 

rfdfirecaptain

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Why a 30 hp engine to drive a 10kW gen?

I just randomly picked a common generator size of 10Kw. The 30Hp was picked because it takes about 1.77Hp to produce 1000Kw (slightly under the rule of thumb, 2 Hp per 1000Kw). I only needed about 24Hp, but I rounded up to 30Hp.
 

oops!

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

OK, I know you all think I?m crazy, and I thank you for indulging me. Here is my idea. Again I am a firefighter, not an engineer so for the sake of discussion about my idea please assume the following

1. Assume that all the parts will fit into the boat?s engine compartment
2. Assume that specific adjustments to various parts would inevitably be needed based on many needed calculations that are not a part of this discussion
3. Assume that weight is not an issue
4. Speed and efficiency is not the immediate objective. Forward and reverse propulsion is the objective

1. Remove engine and transmission from the engine compartment leaving the stern drive mounted.
2. Install a variable speed electric motor with a spline shaft that will marry up to the stern drive
3. Install a small engine (of say 30 Hp) with a through hull exhaust system
4. Install a 10k watt generator

Will it work? If it would I estimate the Hp at the spline shaft to be about 13.5 Hp. I know that's not near enough, but you gotta start somewhere.

yes, it will work......it will be like a trolling motor on the queen mary.....but it will work.

by the way guys....there is a company here in kelowna that is making electric boats for the mass market.....

we arent at water ski speed yet.....but they are reported to get to plane.

ill check into them.....the parent company is sunshine composites.
ondarvr knows about them and has been to the factory helping set up the line.

let me dig something up....
 

cyclops2

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Apr 19, 2011
Messages
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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

DUUUH


Any body want to disprove that a pure sail.....sailboat..... is the most efficient & cost efficient means of ........CRUISING..........?

I am a V8 person & even I WILL admit that. I love acceleration. BUUUTT NOTHING BEATS the peace & sound of a sailboat with other people.

I do not have to hear talk & excuses of Carbon, oil prices, tuneups or smell exhausts if the wind is traveling in the same speed & direction.

If you have never taken a 1/2 hour trip on a sailboat when you are stressd out. You are missing out on the best cure for a rotten life.


Rich
 

RogersJetboat454

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2,964
Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

OK, I know you all think I?m crazy, and I thank you for indulging me. Here is my idea. Again I am a firefighter, not an engineer so for the sake of discussion about my idea please assume the following

1. Assume that all the parts will fit into the boat?s engine compartment
2. Assume that specific adjustments to various parts would inevitably be needed based on many needed calculations that are not a part of this discussion
3. Assume that weight is not an issue
4. Speed and efficiency is not the immediate objective. Forward and reverse propulsion is the objective

1. Remove engine and transmission from the engine compartment leaving the stern drive mounted.
2. Install a variable speed electric motor with a spline shaft that will marry up to the stern drive
3. Install a small engine (of say 30 Hp) with a through hull exhaust system
4. Install a 10k watt generator

Will it work? If it would I estimate the Hp at the spline shaft to be about 13.5 Hp. I know that's not near enough, but you gotta start somewhere.

So where's the benefit?
You could connect a set of bicycle pedals to the input shaft and make forward and reverse propulsion. The generator needs to be constantly running to make this work. If your calculations are correct, you have lost 55% of your horsepower from the generator engine to the outdrive shaft.

You've basically built your self a slow moving, inefficient, fossil fuel burning novelty... :)
 

cyclops2

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Most gasoline engines are still wasting about 78 % of the input energy. That is at their best rpm & load condition. Off their best conditions ??

Might as well spill the fuel on the ground or let it vaporize into the sky.
 

cyclops2

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

There is NO market competition.

Futures & Commodities DO NOT allow competition. ALL oil pumped out of a well sells for the same price as out of any Arab oil well.

Gasoline at a station is next to the refinery is more than at a N J gas station.

Wall Street Futures & Commodities markets raise prices. PERIOD. Wages do not rise. Benifits do not rise. The price to make the oil in the ground has not risen..................That means pricefixing & extortion are the sole purpose of Wall Street.

Gold is not like oil. It is 20 times worse.
 
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