Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

bruceb58

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Wall Street Futures & Commodities markets raise prices. PERIOD. Wages do not rise. Benifits do not rise. The price to make the oil in the ground has not risen..................That means pricefixing & extortion are the sole purpose of Wall Street.
Curious how you think this is on topic.
 

QC

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Wall Street Futures & Commodities markets raise prices. PERIOD. Wages do not rise. Benifits do not rise. The price to make the oil in the ground has not risen..................That means pricefixing & extortion are the sole purpose of Wall Street.
Besides that being a non-sequitur, what part of this seems appropriate for a forum that does not allow politics? Politics you say? Yes. Global in fact ;)

Gold is not like oil. It is 20 times heavier . . . :p
 
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rfdfirecaptain

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

So where's the benefit?

You've basically built your self a slow moving, inefficient, fossil fuel burning novelty... :)

Baby steps ya'll.... the first plane only flew about 120 feet. Maybe that question would be better asked if I were a deisgn engineer.

I agree what I am proposing isn't going to win any races. What I am trying to do is provoke thought and discussion. I said speed was not an issue. Propulsion was the objective of my idea.
 

cyclops2

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

I reread your original posting question about converting from gasoline to LPG or NG.

Loads of 3 fueled motors run on all 3 you mention. The efficiencies of the motors are close to each other. The retail cost of the fuels per BTU is also similar.

Thread topic question answer is simple. Maybe for some people. Maybe not for others. It can be done right now if some factors are not important.


My answers COMPLETLY qualify me as a upper end naval designer to those who have a excess pile of money. :)
 

dlngr

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Bumper sticker I saw on a full size Chevy truck: BUY A SMART CAR, I NEED YOUR GAS
 

Haysc

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

There have been significant improvements in battery technology such as Lithium Ion, Lithium Polymer, A123, and a great deal of power can be packed into a relatively small package but at a very high price.
i agree! i use LIPO and A123 alteast 3 times a week.. cheaper every day and light weight!
 

QC

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

I agree what I am proposing isn't going to win any races. What I am trying to do is provoke thought and discussion. I said speed was not an issue. Propulsion was the objective of my idea.
You will propel it. That's not at issue. I think the problem I am having with this plan, is that there is nothing to prove here. Nothing new; nothing innovative; no emission, efficiency or noise benefit; no weight savings and no new technology being demonstrated . . . :confused:

That's why I keep asking why? I wouldn't spend money to provoke thought, that's already being done here for free. If all you want is a project for your boys, then I would consider building something like a Duffy for cruising the marina. I just wouldn't use a gasoline powered generator to drive an electric motor. It's just more fuel for what is available cheap today mechanically. I'd be way more supportive of a 5 hp battery powered deal. At least it would be silent and ultra clean.
 

cyclops2

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

This is a pleasure craft. SOOOOO:)

Boat almost stops. Bring out more DRINKS & FOOD. Life is good on the water, within sight of land. :)

Happy hour has begun !
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Baby steps ya'll.... the first plane only flew about 120 feet. Maybe that question would be better asked if I were a deisgn engineer.

I agree what I am proposing isn't going to win any races. What I am trying to do is provoke thought and discussion. I said speed was not an issue. Propulsion was the objective of my idea.

But if you understand what we're saying, you are taking lot's of baby steps backward.
We all know that a engine powering a generator to power electric motors will make something go forward and reverse. Diesel Locomotives have been this way since around the 40's and some ships are this way too. They use this method for various reasons. It solves the issues of coupling an engine to the work when the space/practicality of direct coupling would be difficult. In the case of a locomotive, having the advantage of having 100% torque to the wheels when the tractive motors are spinning at 0 RPM can obviously have it's advantages.

In a pleasure boat, there is no clear advantage. It's basically a Rube Goldberg way of powering the boat.
The current laws of physics dictate that in this environment, there is a loss for every time energy has to change it's form to get to it's intended work. Whether it be gravity, friction, electrical resistance, etc. The top minds have been working for century's to figure out some form of "free/ perpetual energy" I.E. getting an equal amount or more energy than you put in. Thus far they have come up with squat....

Of course there are nay-sayers with their own websites, and plenty of people on Youtube hocking magnet motors, HHO, gasoline extending gizmo's, or their own personal concoction of flat beer, camel spit, and rotten eggs. 99% of them are frauds, that will tell you a convincing story about how the "gubberment" doesn't want you to know about this. The other 1% are either convinced by the 99%, or just trying things out for them self.
 

QC

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

ROGER THAT, uh Roger ^^^^^^^^ x one brazzillion!!! Thank you :cool:
 

ssobol

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Just get one of the Radioisotope thermoelectric generators used by NASA for spacecraft or for power supplies in remote locations. Couple this to an electric motor. These units can be quite small.

It might not be a speed demon, but the RTG will outlast most of the other components in the boat (no moving parts).

However, the TSA may have something to say about letting any TDH have PU-238 lying around.
 

rfdfirecaptain

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

OK gang... I get what everyone is saying. Really I do and I've picked up a lot of technical information from your posts. Thanks! But... I don't believe questions like these (electric and alternative fuel propulsion) are going away. Where is the line for most pleasure boaters? $5, $6, $7, what about $10 per gallon of gasoline? We all know some new cheaper means of operating is an application specific technology that is going to take time to come to fruition. The sooner we get to work on it? the less chance that this industry will come to a stop over the price of a gallon of gasoline.
 

QC

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

I don't believe questions like these (electric and alternative fuel propulsion) are going away.
I sincerely hope not, since that's what I do for a living . . . ;)

The reason why pleasure boats are not the target for this concern is the unit numbers are low, and they don't burn enough fuel for there to be an economically driven payback. Need both to drive innovation.
 
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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

I spent $290 a piece these 2 electric motors when gas went past $2.75 a gallon. Saving me a lot of money, lol. :D :facepalm:

IMG_0009.jpg


IMG_0022.jpg
 

rfdfirecaptain

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

OK I see the electric motors. I think I missed the joke becasue I have no clue how those two things save you money propelling your boat.
 

HT32BSX115

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

The 30Hp was picked because it takes about 1.77Hp to produce 1000Kw (slightly under the rule of thumb, 2 Hp per 1000Kw).

That would be a pretty good conversion!! 1000KW is about 1360 HP.

You might want to get your decimals straight!

1000KW is 1 megawatt........... 1HP = 746W or 0.746 KW......so ................1.77hp is about 1.3KW (1300W)


You did get the 30HP to 22KW conversion right however! :D


1. Assume that all the parts will fit into the boat?s engine compartment
2. Assume that specific adjustments to various parts would inevitably be needed based on many needed calculations that are not a part of this discussion
3. Assume that weight is not an issue
4. Speed and efficiency is not the immediate objective. Forward and reverse propulsion is the objective

1. Remove engine and transmission from the engine compartment leaving the stern drive mounted.
2. Install a variable speed electric motor with a spline shaft that will marry up to the stern drive
3. Install a small engine (of say 30 Hp) with a through hull exhaust system
4. Install a 10k watt generator






You cannot just "assume weight is not an issue".

Weight is a HUGE issue. Too much weight in the extreme case, will just sink the boat!

Too much in any case will make the boat so inefficient that you will not be able to carry a load.


Speed and efficiency is not the immediate objective.
You could probably eliminate speed, but you cannot eliminate efficiency.







Here's the problem. A boat has to operate in a medium we call WATER!

The hull design we commonly use in water, depending on the speed of the hull through the water encounters drag which is a FIXED quantity depending on the amount of the hull contacting the water and the velocity through the water.



The force (Lbs or Newtons) required to make the hull go a certain speed must be sufficient to overcome that drag.

It doesn't matter what is used to produce that force (jet engine, reciprocating engine, electric motor, "nucular" power, star drive, di-lithium crystal hyperdrive, squirrels, lions, tigers & bears (oh my!) :facepalm:

1 gallon of gasoline has a potential energy of approx 115,000 BTU's (British Thermal Units)

So if you have a boat engine that is burning 5 gallons per hour at a "cruising speed", You're using the equivalent of 115,000 x 5 =575,000 BTU/hr

Convert that to KW and you get about 168kw or approx 225hp.

Now we know that reciprocating engines are not 100% efficient. they're more like 25% efficient. (25% of the above 225hp is actually driving the prop)

So in round numbers, we're talking around 55 hp is required to get your theoretical boat to "cruise" to stay on plane.

Electric motors are probably somewhere around 70-90% efficient. (depending on whether AC(3ph) , DC and how efficient your control system is etc)

BUT if you need 55hp connected to your stern-drive for cruising, you'll need more than that to get it up on plane.

Even if you assume a 90% efficient motor, and you need say, 25% MORE power to get up on a plane, then you'll need around 70hp to get it up on plane.

70hp is about 52KW

let say you have 48V batteries (like 4 BIG 12v truck batteries connected in series) driving your boat.

To supply 52,000 W of power to drive the motor to get you up on plane, those batteries (at 48V) would need to produce approx 1100A :eek::eek:

Even if the motor operated at 100V DC, you would need more than 500A to produce that 50kw.

Of course, even HUGE HEAVY truck batteries wouldn't be capable of producing 500A for very long. (we're talking MINUTES here!!!!)


Now remember, the above 52KW was needed to get up on plane, so you wouldn't be at that power setting for more than a min or so.


BUT you WOULD operate at the lower (55HP setting or 41KW) for continuous "cruise".

at 48V, 41KW would still require nearly 850 AMPS! those 4 HUGE 12v truck batteries would not last long (we're still talking minutes)

At 100v 41KW is still over 400A


Right now the battery technology is not quite there.......but it is getting better.....

Electric boats are also not new at all........ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_boat

Submarines have been electric since WWII. And they used HUGE batteries.

I am not saying it's no "do-able".


But for our kind of boating (water skiing, cruising at planing speeds, etc) it might be a while before they're affordable and we see them at the boat store........
 

bruceb58

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Darn engineer! Spoils all the fun!
 

cyclops2

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Re: Can Electric Marine Propulsion Be A Reality (in pleasure craft)?

Lets see what we know.
First cars used batteries for many years. No one burned or killed in crashes. Good.
Gasoline & Diesel power takes over. Bodies all over the place.
Electrics are trying to make a comeback. NAAHH
Undertakers & Funeral home lobby is claiming unfair subsidies to the electrics. True.

Gas still is cheaper. If we need more power lines all over the country.
 
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