Can't get outboard to WOT.

Saskatoon2005

Master Chief Petty Officer
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Apr 27, 2005
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810
Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

I still have to check the upper cylinder, and no I have not bought new spark plugs since the ignition rebuild. so I will do that for sure and I will check the upper cylinder a.s.a.p...<br /><br />will keep you up to date on this one, I know you guys are excited as I am to see this thing run beautifully. <br /><br />Thanks for all your input guys and I hope I can be as much service to others as you guys have been with me.
 

Saskatoon2005

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Messages
810
Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

So I checked the spark plug upper cylinder by starting it with out having the upper cylinder spark plug boot attached. It runs basically the same but it is now sneezing out the exhaust every once in a while. I did not notice anything coming out of the carburetor. So does that mean I have to recheck the work I did on the magneto plate? I mean I was very precise about how I wired the magneto plate when I did it. Is there a chance that the coils is bad? <br /><br />I am going to try and start the outboard with the top cylinder hooked up and the lower one disconnected that should tell me all I need to know. If it doesn't run on the upper cylinder then obviously it is the wrong one. So here goes nothing.<br /><br />[edit] It will not start on the upper cylinder...it just sneezes and then won't run. When sneezing, it disengages the starter motor as if there is some spark, but not enough to get it to run. <br /><br />How do I test the megneto plate....readjust the points? Please help, I am so close I can feel it.....
 

Paul Moir

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Nov 5, 2002
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6,847
Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

Start by swapping the spark plugs. I'll bet one's fouled. Failing that, set up the spark gap test. Nail two nails into a board 3/8" apart. Put the spark plug boot on one nail and attach the other to the engine block with a short length of wire.<br /><br />It should run pretty funny on one cylinder sneezing and such, as the carburation is all screwed up for the RPM.
 

BF

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Apr 8, 2003
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1,489
Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

but you haven't tested the spark. and have you ruled out a bad spark plug?
 

Saskatoon2005

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Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

I promised you pics of spark plugs so here goes....<br />
P1020344.jpg
<br />
P1020337.jpg
<br /><br />The one on the right is the tan insulator (bottom plug) and the one on the left is the black oily one (top spark plug).
 

Saskatoon2005

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Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

So here is what I did tonight...<br /><br /> 1) removed both spark plug wires and got a bolt, stuck it into the boot, and held it 3/8 inch away from ground and it sparked a nice bright blue spark. Did it with the other spark plug wire and it too sparked with a nice bright blue spark.<br /><br /> 2) checked the spark with the spark plug installed against ground and it too fired a nice spark. Checked the other spark plug in the boot and it too had a nice strong spark.<br /><br /> 3) opened the flywheel expection hole and checked the points, one seemed a little tiny bit tight, so I adjusted it and still got great spark from both cylinders.<br /><br /> 4) started the outboard and then pulled the bottom spark plug boot and it still ran, not as well, but it still ran. Did the same with the other spark plug boot and it too still ran, not as well but still ran.<br /><br /> 5) started outboard with both plugs installed and it ran beautifully. Just like it did before I took it last time to the lake.<br /><br /> Now do you guys think it may be fuel related? If it is what are some of the things I should check for in dealing with an outboard that will not hit WOT? What is the troubleshooting criteria for fuel problems. I did tell you guys that the float bowl is leaking. I can see fuel drips hanging off the bottom of the carb. I checked for spit back and there was nothing, so I assume the reeds are fine. What next, I can redo the lynch and synch but what if that is in great shape? Then what? Please help, you guys have been so helpful so far, please don't give up yet, we are almost there, I can feel it.
 

Saskatoon2005

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Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

Just curious, but is there any chance that it could be the vacuum cut-out switch? What is the purpose of this thing? How does it work and more importantly how does it fail and what happens when it fails?
 

Saskatoon2005

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Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

My motor is equipped with a pressure release system for starting with the hand recoil starter. Is there any chance that one is leaking? Maybe some fuel/oil mixture is getting out. No that can't be right because I have over 100 psi compression on that cylinder...just typing as I think...sorry.
 

RPJS

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Jul 29, 2002
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1,572
Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

I had the same sort of problem with an OB a few years ago, I just couldn't get it to run, it almost got used as an anchor in the end. The problem turned out to be about 500yrds of fishing line wraped around the prop shaft.<br />It maybe worth a look.
 

Saskatoon2005

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Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

I expect to have to do some work, but now i have perfect spark, so now I need to fix fuel problem....I would love some help.....Paul? Are you out there?
 

Paul Moir

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Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

It can't be link & sync related, that would affect both cylinders. I don't think it's the vaccum cutout switch, as that ought to be wired to the bottom cylinder only. Also, it's supposed to be disabled at speeds higher than "Start" by the safety switch. But double check all that wiring since it's been apart. The base of the vacuum switch should be connected to the safety switch and one of the small solenoid posts. <br /><br />Is the fuel pump hooked up to the bottom bypass cover? Did you try swapping or replacing the spark plugs? The top one looks pretty fouled.<br /><br />I don't think it can be a primary compression issue as the burn is perfect on the bottom plug and your carburetor is non-adjustable. How many turns out did you end up on the idle adjustment?
 

Saskatoon2005

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Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

I ended up with 1 and 1/4 turns from gently seated. There is small pockets of greyish oily substance floating on the top of my pail of water, and last time had it out, the outboard dripped some green goo from the exhaust.<br /><br />How can I by-pass the vacuum and safety switch to check to see if it is these things? If I can by-pass the vaccum cut-out, then I can rule it out for sure. Are you sure the carburetor leaking is not a concern at this moment? I mean I did idle beautifully and trolled for like two hours without any problems on the lake, it was great I even caught a nice 6.1 pound jackfish. We ate it yesterday for supper...Mmmmm great.
 

Paul Moir

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Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

It is extremely dangerous to run without the vacuum cutout switch in operation, and I really do not recommend it. What you could try is wiring it to the other cylinder and seeing if the the problem follows. Have you tried disconnecting the kill switch yet though?<br /><br />You have a problem where one cylinder is affected but not the other, so we can rule out any common problems. The carb is common to both cylinders so it's not the problem.
 

Tom Scully

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Oct 14, 2003
Messages
154
Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

Check the reeds, they are not common to both.
 

Saskatoon2005

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Messages
810
Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

What should I look for in the reeds. I have experienced NO spitback as bad reeds would suggest. I can only go on what you guys suggest.
 

Saskatoon2005

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Messages
810
Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

My outboard is not equipped with a kill switch. Or if it is where is it? It just has the safety switch and the vaccum cut out switch. Nothing else except the low voltage lines to the ignition and the vaccum cut-out switch.
 

Xcusme

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Apr 21, 2003
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Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

Sask, I made an observation....in you first large pic above, showing the armature plate with coils,points,condensers installed. On the lower set of points, in the pic, I don't see the large hold down screw, holding the points to the armature plate. I see the point gap adjusting screw and the spring 'M' clip on the movable arm of the points, but no large slotted hold down screw. Perhaps, it's just the glare of the flash washing out the pic at the location of the screw, but I enlarged the pic and couldn't see even an edge of the machine screw...is it installed? You mentioned that upon checking the point gap, that one set of points 'seemed a little 'tight'. Was one set tight and the other not? I mention this in reference to possibly not having a pointset hold down screw installed (making one set very easy to adjust.<br /><br />Just a couple more thoughts. In your posts , you said to the parts guy,"does it matter if the plug wires are not the same..." How were they different?? Both plug wires are 7mm stranded core (solid wire strands) tinned copper right?? <br /><br />Did you mount the coils , paying close attention to the machined surfaces and align the coil laminations with the machined bosses??<br /><br />On the movable arms of the points, after installation on the fixed pivot post, you installed small clips to retain the flat spring steel return spring. One side of these small clips flares away from the clip. This small flare should be closer to the coil, not towards the points contacts. <br /><br />When setting the point gap, did you first turn the crankshaft and align the crankshaft key way and the points rub block, then set the gap to .020?? <br /><br />When you had the flywheel off, was there any evidence of a partially sheared flywheel key?? Just curious.<br /><br />Was there any evidence of any oil on the new coils or point sets or anywhere on the armature plate? You mentioned early on that things looked a bit oily under the flywheel. Oil as you might guess would point to the upper crank shaft seal leaking.<br /><br />When you installed the plug boots and wire end clips. You said to had to manhandle things a bit to get the brass end thru the boot. Could the solder connection have broken loose?? Personally, I use alcohol on the wire and inside of the boot. I push the wire end into the back of the boot. I reach into the plug end with a fine pair of needle nose pliers and pull the end out thru the plug end. I apply the rubbing alcohol liberaly as needed to keep things slipperly. I afix the end clip and pull the boot down to the brass clip. I find it a bit easier to get the clip up into the plug boot because the plug opening is larger than the opposite wire end. Now this is just personal preference, your mileage may vary.<br /><br />As you (we-everyone) probably agrees at this point, your looking for something a bit wonky with your top cylinder. I'm just throwing out things to think about....... it's more than likely going to be something simply taken for granted or assumed. I feel the devils in the details,and I've been called a nut case for paying so much attention to those details,but most of the time it pays off.<br /><br />One last thought. promise. In your smaller picture (underside of armature plate) bottom wire hold down clip. I see the kill wire (if that is the kill wire) crosses the spark plug wire right at the clip. Could there be an intermittant short at this junction, killing the spark to one cylinder? If that kill wire goes to ground, it will kill the primary coil voltage to that cylinder.....<br /><br />Gees, just noticed...this thread is starting to look like a book.....I hope is has a happy ending... :D
 

Saskatoon2005

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Messages
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Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

Xcuseme,<br /><br /> Firstly, I like to say thank-you for you very informative questioning. This is why I am in this forum so people will bounce questions off me and I hope that one will be the right one that I check and find out my problem.<br /><br /> Now, the large hold down screw you do not see made me wonder if I did indeed forget to put it back in, so I checked my other photos of my magneto plate and sure enough, it is there, holding the points to the magneto plate.<br /><br /> My flywheel has an inspection hole milled into it. It is a small piece of metal held down by two screws. After I came back from my trip to the lake [after rebuilding the magento] I opened up the inspection hole and checked the points. When the inspection hole goes over the points they open to there gap. I checked the gap and one was tight, as if it was affected by my trip out, by vibration or something, or maybe I just didn't tighten the hold down screw very well. I was able to readjust it and the spark was seemed much better, in the pail of water I was running it in.<br /><br /> As for my plug wires, I bought the first three feet at a store called Pally Porformance in Saskatoon here. When I realized I did not have enough, I went to another place [because I had a carb float on order and it was in] called Border RV here in Saskatoon and bought another three feet of spark plug wire. All wire is 7mm wire. They are two different brand names, one is something that starts with a B and the other is Hypalon Wire. They are both made for outboard motors and I was told both are compatible with each other.<br /><br /> I had questions about how to mount the coils, I was greatly helped by Paul Moir. I did use his photo and payed close attention to the machines surfaces. I also aligned the coil laminations with the machined bosses.<br /><br /> The small clips, on the moveable arms of the points have a small indentation that fits into the hole in the flat steel return spring, so I know I put those inright, as far as I could see there was only one way to install them.<br /><br /> I was told that in setting the points you were supposed to align the megneto until it reached the word TOP that was embossed into the points cam. I hope that is correct.<br /><br /> I do not know what a good flywheel key looks like, but I didn't think there was anything wrong with the key, the flywheel only fit one way on crankshaft end.<br /><br /> I am curious abouth that upper seal. There was some brown very thin oily substance lighted dusted over everything, coils, points, and condensers. Not very much mind you and it didn't seem like there was even enough to do any damage. But might that be some indication as to the difference of 10 psi between the upper and lower cylinder? Is there blow-by from that seal not being there?<br /><br /> How important is it to solder the connection? I did not solder it. I cut back the wire about a half inch and folded it over and then pinched the wire end clips very tightly. I check the wires by giving them a slight tug before pushing them into the boots. I didn't use anything when I pushed them on either. Would that make any difference?<br /><br /> As far as your last thought (which I hope many more are coming) I completely redid the wiring. I mean I cut and spliced any "wonky" looking chunks of wire. I cut and replaced by soldering and heat shrinking the connection. On top of that there was another "wire protector" covering that slid over everything after I soldered and heat shrunk it. The spark plug wires are new and so is the wiring for the ignition and the vaccum cutout switch. So there is little [if any] of there being a short between these two wires.<br /><br /> Yeah I agree about the book comment and I hope I can get this thing running smoothly. My next task is to remove and rebuild the carburetor. Hope all goes well. Wish me luck and maybe, just maybe I'll get this thing running smoother than it already is....LOL!
 

Xcusme

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Apr 21, 2003
Messages
2,888
Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

Glad to hear that points hold down screw was there.<br />Plug wires sound just fine, 7mm stranded solid wire core. Not absolutely necessary to solder the wires to the clips but I do. A strong physical connection along with positive contact to the clip shouldn't be cause of concern. As for not using anything to make insertion into the boot, no problem, just takes a bit more fiddling. Alcohol,silicone grease etc., just makes it go a bit easier.<br />That upper crank seal would only impact the top cylinder. As the top piston moves up the cylinder, it creates a vacuum behind the piston. Fuel mix is drawn into the top half of the crankcase thru the reeds. On the downstroke of the piston, the crankcase behind the piston is pressurized and the reeds are then closed. When the piston moves far enough down the bore, the intake ports are uncovered. This pressurized fuel mixture then enters the combustion chamber. The in rush of fuel mix also pushes exhaust gasses out thru the exposed exhaust ports across the top of the piston. The piston then rises in the bore, covering the exhaust and intake ports and gets a spark at or near TDC (Top Dead Center). The top crank seal is only affected by the vacuum/pressure of the fuel mix. If the seal leaks it can allow air to enter the crankcase on the compression stroke(crankcase vacuum phase) and lessen the amount of fuel mix to be drawn past the reeds from the carb.This has a tendency for making a lean fuel/air mix. On the power stroke (downward movement of the piston), as the piston compresses the crankcase, fuel mix is forced past the upper crank seal and leaves the oil film on the points,coils and armature plate under the flywheel. The lower crankcase seal affects the bottom cylinder in the same way. The crank seals aren't affected by your compression figures and won't be the cause for the 10lb differecne.<br /><br />I don't have the details on your version of fuel pump. Typically there's a small hole drilled thru and into the upper intake. Since this area is behind the piston, it is subject to the vacuum and pressure cycles. The fuel pump has a diaphram that pulses on the pressure/vacuum cycle to pull fuel from the gas tank. If this diaphram leaks, fuel can be drawn directly into the intake making for an overly rich mixture flooding the cylinder. You said you had a lot of extra fuel visible when you removed the spark plug. If yours is a diaphram type fuel pump, you can remove it's mounting bolts and pull it away from the powerhhead. You'd then work the primer bulb to pressureize the fuel line. If fuel squirts out the back of the pump, it's a bad pump. Hopefully one of the other guys can comment on your type of fuel pump to see if this is a possibility.
 

Saskatoon2005

Master Chief Petty Officer
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Apr 27, 2005
Messages
810
Re: Can't get outboard to WOT.

Yes my fuel pump has a line from the engine that "pulses" air to the back of a diaphram and forces fuel into the carburetor.
 
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