Closed Cooling System on Port Engine Running Hot(ter)

alldodge

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I don't know of another method either. When tech knowledge I call on Fun Times for assistance.

Hey FT, an ebay seller is saying their is another method called out in a Merc service bulletin. Do you know of any other method to test other then the one Ted used out of the service manual?
 

tpenfield

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Hopefully, Fun Times or maybe achris in a few hours can weigh in on the eBay story . . . the only procedure that I could find was in the Mercruiser Manual #16, pages 5C-61 & 5C-63.
 

tpenfield

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I'm at Logan Airport (Boston) about to head out with the Admiral and Crew on our western state swing.

A quick update, i asked the EBay seller about any SB's that he was referencing and his test method . . . Of course, as I expected, he has not responded :rolleyes: I did come to a realization . . . It seems that this eBay seller, and probably many use this tactic, cancel the order once they encounter any kind of buyer satisfaction issue. That way the buyer cannot give comment on the seller for others to see. I think they do this to keep there positive rating artifically high.

Just an observation that I wanted to share. Of course, once they cancel the order, they must give you a full refund. So, even though the seller was in disagreement with me about whether (or not) the parts were out of spec, he had to refund my money to preserve his favorable rating. :)

My OEM parts will arrive this week so we shall see how it goes.
 

nola mike

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Do you think that a couple of psi would cause it to run lean enough to overheat at idle, yet still supply enough fuel under load to keep the engine from doing really bad things? I'm skeptical that this is a significant enough issue to be causing problems...
 

NHGuy

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True Nola, the fuel requirement is far lower during idle and low speed operation. BUT since the pressure is low the injector cycle time will not deliver enough fuel. So we are back, theoretically any way to square one.
Ted, happy travels!
 

nola mike

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I dunno. I still haven't heard if this engine runs closed loop. The pulse cycle will still be set under load (so same error) and should still be magnified compared to idle.
 

tpenfield

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The port engine regulator is about 4 psi below spec (30 psi vs 34 psi minimum spec) and that seems to be enough to make the engine run on the lean side. The regulators that I returned were much worse by my measurements . . .about 8 psi or more less than spec (25% low) .

Time will tell when I install the OEM regulator that is on its way.

nola mike the system is not closed loop. No O2 sensor for feedback.
 
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tpenfield

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To further elaborate on the MEFI-1 engine controllers . . ..they are not 'smart' and have basic functionality as I understand them. They take engine rpm, manifold pressure, intake air temperature, engine coolant temperature and throttle position as inputs and then provide through a series of look up tables a set of outputs that include the injector pulse duration, the ignition timing advance and the idle air valve setting.

So, if the fuel rail pressure is not within spec (I.e. Low) then not enough fuel will flow into the injectors and therefore not enough fuel will be injected into the intake port as the MEFI thinks is going in there. So the engine will run lean, yet the MEFI will not be aware of it being so.

Once later generations of ECU's had feedback, they could use that to adjust injector pulse duration or other outputs to compensate for a lean ( or rich) condition.
 

achris

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Lean condition will not cause overheating at no-load idle.

Back to water circulation. ;)

Chris.....
 

tpenfield

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Lean condition will not cause overheating at no-load idle.

Back to water circulation. ;)

Chris.....

Could be the issue . . . Lean mixture could be just a milestone marker along the way.

Landed in Phoenix a few minutes ago :)
 

nola mike

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tpenfield, how does the computer know it's running lean? Also, there must be a minimum pressure above which the injector is spraying maximum fuel. I'd bet it's below the minimum regulator pressure.
Never been to Phoenix (or Perth, think I'd prefer to go there). Didn't iboats used to display a user's location?
 
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tpenfield

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Wish we were as lucky :rolleyes: over an hour to get a rental car . . . but we made it
 

mr300z87

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Its probably cooling there than in NJ today, heat index of 110. Enjoy the west.
 

HT32BSX115

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Do you think that a couple of psi would cause it to run lean enough to overheat at idle,

<--------------------I am still assuming that the temp senders and t-stats were swapped?-------------->

I think it's safe to say that no lean condition(at idle power) could generate enough heat to overcome the heat exchanger heat-transfer capability.

So because of that, the thermostat should regulate the temp.

On the other hand, running at 75%-100% power, if the heat exchanger was running near it's capability, and/OR, the (lake)water temp was high enough, the heat exchanger might not be capable of cooling the engine adequately and the stat would probably be full open

I have also had a similar problem on an engine where the circulating pump wasn't turning fast enough at idle and changing the drive pulley (ratio) turned the pump a little faster and increased coolant flow enough to cool the engine at idle. The revealing factor in that case was increasing the RPM (OFF idle) produced a nearly immediate drop (due to increased coolant flow) in engine temp.

So I wonder if maybe there's some sort of obstruction in the recirculating circuit, or the pump impeller is corroded, or both. If that engine has DEXCOOL in it, and it was mixed with even a little bit of other coolant, it could have precipitated some "stuff" that is partially plugging the coolant pump.

Ted, where are you headed after PHX? Road trip around the country side?

I'll be in PHX on the 20th! but it'll only be for about an hour!



Its probably cooling there than in NJ today, heat index of 110. Enjoy the west.
It's going to be a "cool" 105 today!!

I used to live in Phoenix. This time of year, it's common for the "Monsoons" to happen. Moisture boiling up from the Gulf of Ca results in T-storms..... It'll warm up during the day to 100-110 or so. Then a rain-shower will "roll" though and cool it down to say 90.........then the sun breaks through and it's 105-110 again!

Except, now it's 90% humidity too!

"It's a DRY heat though" :flame::flame:
 
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Fun Times

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Here are samples of the screen display from the controllers.
Port

fetch

Starboard Engine
From post number 91 Starboard Engine.
fetch
Hi Ted, I just took some (a lot of) time to read through this whole topic and to be honest as far as cooling goes, most of the time I kept thinking only after you where able to get the engine back under 180 degrees was you seem to have an issue with your starboard engine and it's taking to long to get up to engine temp and typically not hot enough for the closed cooling system these engines tend to run at while using a heat exchanger system with antifreeze. My past personal experience has been that closed cooling sometimes tends to want to run about 10 to maybe as high as 15 degrees warmer vs standard cooling at lower speeds when all is working correctly.

Also looking at your diacom readouts shows me that the port engine is running within spec and the starboard engine is running behind spec.

Your port engine temp reads 157.1 degrees via the more trust worthy ECM scan tool/ECT temp sensor with 13.60 minutes engine run time while the starboard is only at 136.9 degrees at 13.65 minutes. That's to cold for these engines specially within this timeframe. Typically on non closed cooling engines, I'm used to seeing 163 degrees at 8 minutes of idle speed only from start up...No throttle advance at all...Just let it idle and watch the idle RPM drop from the 700 RPM range down to 600. That mentioned, the drilled out holes could be having an effect with engine temp to timing ratio for warm up.

I would recommend putting in a new thermostat in the starboard engine. While the drilled out holes shouldn't be necessary, be sure to use the same size holes in your new thermostat on the port engine for best comparison....Because I understand your concerns with getting coolant to the exhaust system in a timely manner though there should/would also already be a bypass built into the T/housing...Had it been original Merc OEM?? A new T/housing came with the CC kit correct?

Spark advance is known to jump around anywhere from -2 degrees up to +10ish degrees at idle on average at normal 600 idle RPM.

The fuel mixture status Lean or Rich indicator isn't set up in the MEFI systems so you can't go by that.

Injector pulse width at 2.5 ms is close to what I recall seeing for this engine model. More used to seeing 2.1 ms on the 502's though but still okay.

Your starboard engine RPM is to high at 654 and that is due to the low engine temp. Once both engine see 163, they should level down to 600 rpm with a small +/-flex of .5ish rpm.

IAC readings have always been a small issue of obtaining solid readings as they've been all over the board. If it's running/not dying, surging, etc., etc. and your seeing some movement on the scan then honestly it's good.

At this time I can't recall seeing/reading anything special about the Fuel Regulator testing's via a service bulletin. The one thing you're supposed to do with the engine running is remove the vacuum line while watching the fuel psi gauge to see if the psi goes up 3 - 6ish psi.
You could also connect a hand held vacuum pump with a gauge connected to it and change the vacuum to the regulator and see if the fuel psi changes..... I'm sure you recall my old signature line saying buying OEM parts may just save you $$$ in the long run.;)

Besides a heat concern, you never did report a low on engine power or RPM on either engine which you'll need to be running at WOT to know for sure if one engine seems down on anything or truly running to hot.

If you're still going to keep searching for a running to warm issue then here's two things that you may want to visually inspected somehow but won't be easy specially with the boat in the water. One is somehow try using your inspection camera and search the rear transom water inlet hose fitting for corrosion blockage...Also inspect the internals of the water circulating water pump at the front if the engine. In rarer cases its been mentioned that switching from sea water to antifreeze wears out the pumps blades quicker should you had not installed new circulating pumps with the closed cooling system.

One thing that looked sort of kinked in one of your photos of post # 22 was the little hose that typically runs between the intake manifold and circulating pump. It's re-routed using the brass fittings...That could be a possible contributing factor too of a possible heat difference should it really be kinked too much.

Does your closed cooling system have the bleeder valve typically found on the thermostat housing such as # 16 for example? Maybe air in the cooling closed system
http://www.mercruiserparts.com/bam/s...31663/1948/150
Here's a refresher course for you on the closed cooling filling system COOLING SYSTEM - boatfix.com

What temp thermostat are you running?

One test you'll want to perform is with the diacom connected to one engine at a time, keep an eye on the engine temps vs what you are seeing via the temp gauges. Sometimes the two don't agree with each other and the ECM sensor tends to be more on the accurate side.
 

tpenfield

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At the Grand Canyon right now. Not sure where we are going next - I'm just following along
 

alldodge

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At the Grand Canyon right now. Not sure where we are going next - I'm just following along

I know if your the driver, others get upset a bit if you step over the fence and then jump onto the standing rock. They keep saying, do what ever you want , just toss us the keys first. Never did understand their concern :rolleyes:
 

achris

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tpenfield, how does the computer know it's running lean?...

It's not that the ECU 'knows' the engine is running lean, it's that the ECU is set to 'LEAN', meaning the ECU will inject fuel to produce a 'leaner than normal' mixture. With an open loop system (no feedback from an O2 sensor), it's done based on a engine speed, a lookup table and engine sensor inputs (TPS, CTS, MAP, ect).

Chris.....
 

tpenfield

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Thanks Fun Times for going through this thread and for your advice. The closed cooling kits are aftermarket -SJE MC324 kits. The thermostat housing by-pass is a bit funky on these kits and those brass fittings is where the temp senders are.

I can give the t-stats less by-pass and maybe that will help the idle speed be at 600 rpm.

HT - I did not swap the temp senders nor the thermostats since I used the IR temp gun to verify the heat differences. I did test both old and new t-stats when I replaced the port engine t-stat.

My plan is to

1) get the fuel pressure back in spec.
2)See what the temp differences are
3) If there is still a problem -
3A) Check hose intake at the transom -> my inspection camera seems to be water proof, so I can see if I can get a view of the opening at the transom assembly while the boat is in the water
3B) Check the recirc pump.

Day 2 at the Grand Canyon going for a mule ride of some sort :noidea: Tomorrow is a pontoon float on the Colorado river
 
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