Copper tubing for fuel line?

[JFoshee]

Is there a reason that copper tubing can't be used for fuel line if mounted in rubber brackets to hold it and keep it from rubbing? I need to make a new line from my fuel pump to my carb. I swapped from a 2bbl to a 4 bbl.

 

[lowkee]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

Reference CFRs:
§ 183.538 Metallic fuel line materials.
Each metallic fuel line connecting
the fuel tank with the fuel inlet connection
on the engine must:
(a) Be made of seamless annealed
copper, nickel copper, or copper-nickel;
and
(b) Except for corrugated flexible fuel
line, have a minimum wall thickness of
0.029 inches.

Looks kosher to me. Use compression fittings and flange neatly. You don't want leaks.

 

[Apollo75]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

Is there a reason that copper tubing can't be used for fuel line if mounted in rubber brackets to hold it and keep it from rubbing? I need to make a new line from my fuel pump to my carb. I swapped from a 2bbl to a 4 bbl.

I would consider the following also :

"We have recently seen several issues of concern that appear to be related to gasoline containing Ethanol (Gasohol).

Blends above 10% are likely to cause problems in vehicles not designed for alcohol. These problems include delamination (chemical breakdown) of rubber, plastic, and synthetic components such as; rubber, plastic, and synthetic hoses, fuel lines, plastic fuel pumps, plastic fuel tanks, fiberglass fuel tanks, fuel tanks that are epoxy coated, or with rubberized, or plasticized liners, and aluminum, copper, brass, or bronze fuel system and injection system components.

Vehicles stored with gasoline containing Ethanol in the fuel tank are more likely to have problems with the alcohol causing component corrosion, deterioration, and breakdown.

Special plastics, corrosion resistant stainless steel and other more expensive components must be used in any component that touches fuel containing alcohol."

And MTBE is much more corrosive than ETBE added to fuels. Should you have no choice in your fuel selection.

Full Article : http://www.enertechlabs.com/ethanol_in_gasoline.htm


Enjoy

OFM

 

[Bt Doctur]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

fuel systems with a "pressure side" should be double-flared. Get youself some steel brake line tubing , a bender, and a double flaring kit.

 

[Fun Times]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

I would consider the following also :

"We have recently seen several issues of concern that appear to be related to gasoline containing Ethanol (Gasohol).

Blends above 10% are likely to cause problems in vehicles not designed for alcohol. These problems include delamination (chemical breakdown) of rubber, plastic, and synthetic components such as; rubber, plastic, and synthetic hoses, fuel lines, plastic fuel pumps, plastic fuel tanks, fiberglass fuel tanks, fuel tanks that are epoxy coated, or with rubberized, or plasticized liners, and aluminum, copper, brass, or bronze fuel system and injection system components.

Vehicles stored with gasoline containing Ethanol in the fuel tank are more likely to have problems with the alcohol causing component corrosion, deterioration, and breakdown.

Special plastics, corrosion resistant stainless steel and other more expensive components must be used in any component that touches fuel containing alcohol."

And MTBE is much more corrosive than ETBE added to fuels. Should you have no choice in your fuel selection.

Full Article : http://www.enertechlabs.com/ethanol_in_gasoline.htm


Enjoy

OFM

That link is some really good info, Thank you for that. So everyone has a chance to read it I copied and pasted the info in the link down below

Ethanol in Gasoline

Ethanol Problems

Ethanol as a Replacement for MTBE



Ethanol is the Future, Ethanol is Coming, Ethanol is Here; there is a new headline about Ethanol nearly every day now.

Ethanol production is a well understood technology with the potential improve dramatically in efficiency that may in the future offer a partial solution to US energy needs. It is not the be all, end all, but it can help.

Beyond the current hype, Ethanol plays a small but important role in today?s fuels marketplace. In the future this role will likely become much more significant and even vital to our energy program.

Ethanol is best known as ?grain alcohol? or sometimes as ?moonshine?. It is produced by taking a grain, such as corn, crushing it and mixing with water and yeasts to form a mash. This mash is allowed to ferment for a few days. The wort (fermented mash) is then boiled in a still and with the help of the cooling tower it distills the vapors into a pure alcohol.

Ethanol can be blended with petroleum gasoline from 0.1%-99.9% to 1%.

Most commonly blends of 10% to 15% are available in the US. However blends up to 85% (E85) are possible for vehicles designed and manufactured to run on this fuel. These Flex-Fuel vehicles have had changes made to fuel system and engine components to prevent problems caused by the solvency and high level of corrosion caused by Ethanol and to the computer software to allow it to operate the engine on a broad range of fuels.

Of late, many Automobile and Light Truck Manufacturers have touted their Flex-Fuel vehicles that will run on gasoline containing up to 85% Ethanol (E85). The problem today is that out of 185,000 gas stations in the US only about 640 currently offer E85.

We have recently seen several issues of concern that appear to be related to gasoline containing Ethanol (Gasohol).

Blends above 10% are likely to cause problems in vehicles not designed for alcohol. These problems include delamination (chemical breakdown) of rubber, plastic, and synthetic components such as; rubber, plastic, and synthetic hoses, fuel lines, plastic fuel pumps, plastic fuel tanks, fiberglass fuel tanks, fuel tanks that are epoxy coated, or with rubberized, or plasticized liners, and aluminum, copper, brass, or bronze fuel system and injection system components.

Vehicles stored with gasoline containing Ethanol in the fuel tank are more likely to have problems with the alcohol causing component corrosion, deterioration, and breakdown.

Special plastics, corrosion resistant stainless steel and other more expensive components must be used in any component that touches fuel containing alcohol.

Ethanol is much more hygroscopic than regular gasoline. This holding of dissolved or suspended water can lead to more component corrosion; and gum, varnish, and carbon deposit formation problems.

Ethanol is not as volatile as gasoline, therefore as the percentage of alcohol increases; the engine becomes progressively more difficult to start in cold weather conditions.

Ethanol is a strong solvent and has been used by industry for hundreds of years to clean various types of contaminants and to dissolve and suspend solids.

Gasoline with dissolved solids (plastics, styrene?s, rubber materials, etc.) that will tend to reform as the fuel evaporates. The reforming of the dissolved material shows up as deposits in the fuel system and engine. This material has shown up as deposits on the throttle plate, injector?s piston crowns, and exhaust valves. It is also a problem with PCV?s systems and turbochargers.

In some cases, particularly in the marine markets, gasoline containing Ethanol has been found to saturate and partially dissolve fiberglass fuel tanks. This has been found to cause severe engine problems and very serious safety concerns from leakage.

There is also a problem where Gasoline, MTBE, Ethanol, and Water come together. This combination can cause formations of a thick, gooey, black material that wreaks havoc on fuel systems.

There are also supply issues because Ethanol must be blended at the rack. Due to its extreme corrosiveness Ethanol will generally not be pre-blended and stored in regular tanks. If pre-blended, it could severely corrode storage tanks and fuel delivery equipment.

One might ask, it the fuel refiners and distributors are that concerned about their equipment, should we be concerned about storage and use in our equipment.

Enertech Labs now offers products to control, ameliorate, and even eliminate these problems. We can disperse water from fuel, reduce or eliminate corrosion, prevent the formation and build-up of deposits, and clean and remove the existing deposits.

Contact Enertech Labs today to ask about our OctaPlus line of products for gasoline's.

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[belairbrian]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

Interesting information. I'd be interested in reading an analysis by someone not in the business of making money off the problem they are explaining. Is anyone aware of studies by someone other than the fuel companies (ethanol saves the world) and the additives companies ( ethanol is evil buy our cure).

For myself, I have a poly tank and plenty of gas stations that don't have ethanol in their fuel.

My bigger issue is ethanol lowers fuel mileage so you end up burning more fuel to go the same distance. What is the benefit again?

 

[Apollo75]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

I believe this article may be less biased :

http://www.nwicc.cc.ia.us/pages/continuing/business/ethanol/Module5.htm

OFM

 

[Fun Times]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

Interesting information. I'd be interested in reading an analysis by someone not in the business of making money off the problem they are explaining. Is anyone aware of studies by someone other than the fuel companies (ethanol saves the world) and the additives companies ( ethanol is evil buy our cure).

For myself, I have a poly tank and plenty of gas stations that don't have ethanol in their fuel.

My bigger issue is ethanol lowers fuel mileage so you end up burning more fuel to go the same distance. What is the benefit again?

After seeing this link it helps me say with more confidence what I have always thought to my self, It is a better idea to leave the fuel tank's empty then full while sitting over the winter. And I found some one that is a teck writer, & owns a service shop, & Also builds high performance engine and stern drives, for the high performance marine industry that said about the same thing below.

February 2009 Teague on Tech.

SETTLING THE DEBATE

Question: Thanks for all the great advice. I utilized your insight on a past issue for fogging fuel-injected engines. I fogged my MerCruiser 502 Magnum engine with Marvel Mystery Oil dispensed from a garden sprayer.

My friends and I, all owners of performance boats, debate regularly on whether to leave the fuel tanks low when winterizing or fill them up to minimize condensation. We all agree to put stabilizer in. I subscribe to the theory that there is nothing better than fresh gas when starting up in the spring. I usually dwindle the tank down to less than a quarter tank. My friends don?t necessarily agree with me. Can you settle our debate?

Kris Lukowitz
Sayreville, N.J.

Answer: The concept of filling the tanks to minimize condensation during storage was the standard procedure in years past. It is still common practice on airplanes. The problem is that most automotive gasolines purchased at the pump today are not the same quality as they were when it was common practice to fill the tanks prior to storage.

It is likely that your fuel also contains oxygenating components such as ethanol, isopropanol and ether that are currently used to replace MTBE. These additives are injected into the fuel during the reformulation process. Ethanol, isopropanol and ether are polar solvents, which means they are water-soluble. When they are present, condensation can be absorbed into the fuel resulting in further deterioration. The components added during the reformulation process also have the tendency to evaporate more rapidly than the base gasoline, which has the same effect as lowering the octane rating.

Aviation fuels are required to be higher quality and do not deteriorate rapidly, so it makes sense that filling the tanks on airplanes is usually the practice.

I used to believe that leaving the tanks full of fuel was the best practice. About five years ago, I switched to leaving them as low as possible as a result of tests that we performed on fuel to see how it held up during long storage periods. The bottom line is that modern pump gasoline tends to get stale faster than we imagined.

When you bring the boat out of storage, I recommend filling the tanks with premium gasoline. Using the higher-octane gasoline will improve the overall quality of fuel when mixed with the existing fuel in the boat?s tank(s). In addition, using a quality fuel stabilizer can?t hurt. In short, you win the debate.

? Bob Teague is Powerboat?s lead test driver and a columnist for nearly 40 years.
http://www.powerboatmag.com/february-2009.html

http://www.teaguecustommarine.com/

 

[belairbrian]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

I believe this article may be less biased :

http://www.nwicc.cc.ia.us/pages/continuing/business/ethanol/Module5.htm

OFM

Read that article and the complete set on the site. Not sure how unbiased they are they state upfront:

"Northwest Iowa Community, since 1996, has been working in conjunction with the Iowa Corn Promotion Board on promoting ethanol."

One of their referenced links states:
Boats & Personal Watercraft
Warranty statements of the boat manufacturers listed below approve of the use of ten-percent ethanol blends in their inboard or outboard motors.

* Bombardier
* Honda
* Indmar Marine
* Mercury Marine
* Nissan
* Evinrude, Johnson
* Pleasurecraft
* Suzuki
* Yamaha


Maybe we should throw this issue to the guys on mythbusters?

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

Get youself some steel brake line tubing , a bender, and a double flaring kit.

If you are lucky, (which most of the time doesn't happen) you can just buy the correct length of brake line and a tubing bender,,, and bend the pre-made length to fit the pump>carb. I was lucky and didn't have to buy the double flare tool,,, but 1 wrong bend 1 way or another and I would have been buying a flaring tool.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

After seeing this link it helps me say with more confidence what I have always thought to my self, It is a better idea to leave the fuel tank's empty then full while sitting over the winter

Thats the way I go to. And this is why. I live in New England, up here you don't know if you'll have a 3 month or 6 month winter. If its a prolonged winter, and the gas does in fact spoil, it's a lot easier and cheaper to pump out a few gallons of gas, than it is tens or hundreds.

 

[Fun Times]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

Thats the way I go to. And this is why. I live in New England, up here you don't know if you'll have a 3 month or 6 month winter. If its a prolonged winter, and the gas does in fact spoil, it's a lot easier and cheaper to pump out a few gallons of gas, than it is tens or hundreds.

And also keeping in mind with the bad economy going on there is a hole lot more boats out there that are just sitting throughout this whole year already, Giving the last time the boat was fueled up from who knows when more of a chance to go bad sooner even if treated, And like you said who knows how long it will be before the boat get's used again because of the boats owner's that are losing there job's now a day's, And they don't have the extra money to go out and use them now. I seen A report some one posted from AZ, They said the avarage fuel for boats that was bought between 2006 to 2009 has decreased by 31%. That is a lot of boats sitting even in the summer.

 

[PiratePast40]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

Two topics makes this a tough read but interesting. Back to the OP's topic and flaring tubing. I'd have to agree with fishrdan when it comes to double flares and small diameter tube bending. IMO, that's a skill for the experienced and talented mechanics. You might be able to get it right but it's a dangerous consequence if you mess up by cracking the tubing at the flare or putting a kink instead of a bend in the line. The PROPER tools are more expensive than the easily available cheap ones.

I'd at least go with pre flared lines and fittings or the certified flex fuel line sections over trying to flare it myself.

 

[Fishermark]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

I agree that you should buy a preflared length of 5/16" or 3/8" metal fuel line and bend it yourself. The problem with copper is that it tends to flex and harden and then crack. Here's what I did:

 

[KRH1326]

Re: Copper tubing for fuel line?

The OP didn't state what carb or what fuel pump, pressure etc.
IF it is Holley carb and if it is mechanical pump on an OMC, it should be 3/8". Also, the carb and the pump would have 3/8" FEMALE-Double Flare connection points on both. You would need two Male Double flare nuts.

Double flare on 3/8 is very easy. A 10 -20 dollar kit comes with instructions and drawings.

At a auto part store, I believe they are called internal flare fittings. Same thing.

I am only familiar with the older OMC's, if it's a Merc or other, not sure this is accurate.