Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

kidafa

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
105
Hi all,

I have a lowrance LGC GPS module I'm yet to connect Into my nmea network. I'd like to place it ontop of my Bimini/rocket launcher which would involve threading the cable through the Bimini poles. To do this ill need to cut the plug off and solder it back on. Has anyone had any experience with doing this? Will it still work ok?

Cheers
 

bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,588
Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

I wouldn't cut and splice it. Why would you want to put it on top of the bimini? Any flat exposed surface will work fine.
 

Thalasso

Commander
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Jan 18, 2011
Messages
2,879
Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

Don't think you can do this. Something about not sending the right signal through spliced wires.
You can mount it on the dash and it will still work. What kind of boat?
 
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jhebert

Ensign
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
903
Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

...need to cut the plug off and solder it back on. Has anyone had any experience with doing this? Will it still work ok?

Yes. I have made my own adaptors for various NMEA-2000 network cables by cutting off plugs and splicing different cables together. They work fine. There should not be any problem if you make a nice splice. In any event, there is no harm in trying it. About the worst that can happen is you ruin a longer cable.

I recommend you cut off one connector and leave about 3-feet of cable on it. That will give you plenty of room to make a splice, and even make a second attempt if anything goes wrong. When I made mine, I did not try to make the splice in-line. I made a Y-connection at the splice. If you want to encase the splice in a shield, use some braided shield. You can harvest some braided shield from a piece of RG-58C/U coax.

I think your plan is good. It is much easier to fish a small cable through the pipes than one with a connector. It is also good to put the GPS receiver on the top surface of the boat, but keep it a few feet away from any other antennas that might be up there.
 
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tazrig

Lieutenant Commander
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Dec 20, 2012
Messages
1,752
Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

The lower on the boat you put the GPS antenna (so it doesn't rock as much) the better it will work and the more stable reading it will give you.
 

bruceb58

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Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

The lower on the boat you put the GPS antenna (so it doesn't rock as much) the better it will work and the more stable reading it will give you.
Please explain. The speed at which a GPS receiver is moving on a boat is negligible. After all, GPS receivers are used on many things moving way faster like jet airplanes and missiles.

Does look like splicing the cable is not that big of a deal. I just question the need to put in on the bimini at this point.
 
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jhebert

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Jul 24, 2005
Messages
903
Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

Please explain [why a rocking boat's GPS won't work well]. The speed at which a GPS receiver is moving on a boat is negligible. After all, GPS receivers are used on many things moving way faster like jet airplanes and missiles.

Yes. Excellent point. A GPS receiver works fine in my car at speeds of 70-MPH.

If a boat takes on a list of ten-degrees and the GPS antenna is 6-feet above the deck, and assuming the deck level was the center of the roll rotation axis, the GPS antenna moves through the ten-degree arc or a distance of

2 x pi x 6-feet x 10/360 = 1.04-feet

A car going 70-MPH is traveling at

70-miles/1-hour x 5280-feet/1-mile x 1-hour/3600-seconds = 102.6-feet/second

In order for the motion of the GPS receiver in a 10-degree roll to be at the same speed as a 70-MPH car, the boat would have to undergo the 10-degree roll in

1.04-feet x 1-second/102.6-feet = 0.01-seconds

If your boat is rolling sideways 10-degrees in 0.01-seconds, then the GPS receiver would be traveling at 70-MPH in that direction. We know that there is really no problem for a GPS receiver to operate at 70-MPH, so I don't think a ten degree roll would be much of a problem, even one that occurs in 0.01-seconds. You are more likely to break you neck if your boat has such sudden roll motions, as I doubt your body could remain standing. But the GPS is going to keep working fine.

As for the stability of the "reading" of the GPS, I think you mean the accuracy of its position solution. As I demonstrated, a ten-degree roll only moves the GPS receiver a foot. The accuracy of the GPS position solution is about 30-times less, or about 30-feet.

In any case, we have to assume the rolling motion is some sort of oscillation. If the rolling motion were fixed, it would have no effect at all. Since the rolling motion is oscillatory, its effect is just to put a random uncertainty into a position which already has a random 30-foot uncertainty. There is no basis to assume that the error of the uncertainty from the roll would always add to the error of the position solution. There is a reasonable chance it could just as likely correct that error. In addition, the error would only be a maximum of 1-foot. If we assume the boat rocked back and forth in the ten-degree roll, the change in position of the GPS receiver over time becomes zero. It's average position is the position with no roll displacement. So averaged overtime, the roll error cancels itself out. So I don't see how it can be explained that a rocking motion will make the GPS receiver not work well. Even if the roll period were extraordinarily short, a one-hundredth of a second, the speed the GPS will be moving is not a factor. The oscillatory motion of the roll tends to make any error it introduces sum to zero. Even if there were an error, it is 30-times smaller than the typical error in the GPS position solution.

I don't see much of case to be made for mounting the GPS receiver "as low as possible" to make it work better by avoiding roll motion. In fact, there is a much better case to mount it higher, in order to give the GPS receiver antenna the best view of the sky. On this basis, I have to disagree with the advice to mount the GPS antenna "lower" so that it will "work better."

Also, any arguments about position solutions from GPS being affected by speed should take into consideration that the GPS systems computes its position by measuring signals from MOVING satellites. The satellites are all in orbit and traveling quite a bit faster than any small recreational boat is likely to be able to move across the water. If there were some limitation to the accuracy of the position solution based on the relative speed between the receiver and transmitter, it would certainly come from the speed of the transmitter movement. The satellites are moving at a speed of 3,900-meters/sec, which is 8,724-MPH.
 
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bruceb58

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Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

To the OP, have a picture of your bimini and where you are planning on mounting it? You ever fold this thing up. I would be worried about damaging it more than anything. I have mine mounted on my dash forward of the helm under my windshield ahead of my steering wheel. I have never had an issue with reception.
 

tazrig

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Dec 20, 2012
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Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

Please explain. The speed at which a GPS receiver is moving on a boat is negligible. After all, GPS receivers are used on many things moving way faster like jet airplanes and missiles.

Does look like splicing the cable is not that big of a deal. I just question the need to put in on the bimini at this point.

The GPS antennas on missiles and jet planes are way more expensive and sensitive then the ones we put on our boats. Once the antenna locks onto the satellite signal it doesn't matter how fast you go in a straight line. If you start rocking back and forth relative to the horizon you can easily loose the signal. Military drones have this problem all the time, if they bank at too much of an angle when turning they loose they're GPS signal because the antenna is no longer pointing directly at the satellite. In fact they have a fail safe built in to self right themselves so that when they loose the signal the drone automatically levels itself off to regain the signal. A Family member owns a G4 and I have spent a lot of time riding up front with the pilots. If they bank to steeply (relative to the horizon) they will temporarily loose various satellites until they start to level off again. A boat is no different. If it is rocking back and forth relative to the horizon at enough of an angle you will temporarily loose the signal. The higher up you place the antenna (further away from the center of gravity) the more it will sway and the greater the chances are for loosing the signal. If you are in the cockpit of a sports fisherman you might only experience a little "swaying" if you climb up to the tuna tower you really have to hang on.
 

jhebert

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Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

...If you start rocking back and forth relative to the horizon you can easily loose the signal. Military drones have this problem all the time, if they bank at too much of an angle when turning they loose they're GPS signal because the antenna is no longer pointing directly at the satellite.

Your argument that the angle change causes satellites to move out of view is valid, but it is valid for both antennas. The angular change in position of the GPS antenna on the deck and the antenna mounted six-feet higher is the same. If a ten-degree roll causes a satellite to move out of view, it moves out of view for both a high or low antenna. That is just how angular measurements work.
 

jhebert

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Messages
903
Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

The GPS antennas on missiles and jet planes are way more expensive and sensitive [compared to] the ones we put on our boats.

Yes. That may be true. Please explain how the mounting height affects the sensitivity. A GPS receiver on a boat will have the same sensitivity no matter where you mount it. By mounting it higher, you will give the receiver a better view of the sky. If lack of sensitivity were a problem on boat GPS receivers, can you explain how mounting them lower will make them have better sensitivity?

The higher up you place the antenna (further away from the center of gravity) the more it will sway and the greater the chances are for loosing the signal.
The angular motion is the same. Can you explain why the probability of signal loss increases with the higher antenna?

If you are in the cockpit of a sports fisherman you might only experience a little "swaying"[, but] if you climb up to the tuna tower you really have to hang on.

I agree. As a human, I would prefer to locate myself closer to the roll axis. But I don't think the GPS receiver suffers from any sort of discomfort due to a rolling motion. It is just an electronic device. Your analogy to a human is not a good analogy.
 
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Teamster

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Nov 8, 2010
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1,923
Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

I prefer to have a gps antenna on the bow,

Only because it responds quicker when trolling,......
 

Teamster

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Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

Now that's funny!

Actually, I was being serious,...

If your following contour lines on the gps while trolling the gps will recognize the boat turning faster than if the puck is at the helm,....
 

tazrig

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Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

Yes. That may be true. Please explain how the mounting height affects the sensitivity. A GPS receiver on a boat will have the same sensitivity no matter where you mount it. By mounting it higher, you will give the receiver a better view of the sky. If lack of sensitivity were a problem on boat GPS receivers, can you explain how mounting them lower will make them have better sensitivity?

The angular motion is the same. Can you explain why the probability of signal loss increases with the higher antenna?



I agree. As a human, I would prefer to locate myself closer to the roll axis. But I don't think the GPS receiver suffers from any sort of discomfort due to a rolling motion. It is just an electronic device. Your analogy to a human is not a good analogy.

jhebert,

I'm just trying to tell you how things work in the real world. I never said the sensitivity changed depending on where you place it, but the ability of it to stay locked onto the satellites does. Bottom line, boats rock left/right and forwards/backwards. Your numbers and formulas refer to 10 degrees. I'm talking about real world 45+ degree rolls on simultaneous left/right and forwards/backwards rocking. Unless you are strictly a lake boater and always have flat water to contend with GPS antennas will always work better mounted lower to the center of gravity. They move less and will better hold their fix.
 
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jhebert

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Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

jhebert,

I'm just trying to tell you how things work in the real world.

Yes. I am telling you how things work in the real world, too.

I never said the sensitivity changed depending on where you place it...

Since GPS receiver sensitivity does not change with placement, the GPS mounted lower cannot be more sensitive than one mounted higher. You invoked sensitivity as being something that favors your argument. It does not.


Your numbers and formulas refer to 10 degrees.

Increasing the angular movement does not cause any change in the principles I am using.


I'm talking about real world 45+ degree rolls on simultaneous left/right and forwards/backwards rocking.

If your GPS antenna is tilted 45-degrees away from the normal upward position you will very likely lose reception of some satellites. This is true for an antenna tilted 45-degrees at deck level and an antenna tilted 45-degrees mounted six-feet higher. The sideways motion of the receiver that is six feet higher is only 4-feet. There is no basis to assume that a GPS receiver stops working if you move it 4-feet away from where it was a moment ago.

Unless you are strictly a lake boater and always have flat water to contend with GPS antennas will always work better mounted lower to the center of gravity. They move less and will better hold their fix.

I think you are now asserting the GPS receivers work differently depending on what sort of water you are on. This makes no sense. The GPS receiver works the same on land, on a lake, or at sea.

The center of gravity of a boat has no effect on GPS operation. I think you mean the to refer to the center of the axis of roll.
 
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bruceb58

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Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

My GPS on my mountain bike works great and it is rocking around way more than a boat does going down a single track mountain trail.
 

JustJason

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Re: Cutting plug of NMEA and re-joining?

You can cut and splice power and ground cables. But you should never cut and splice transducer, GPS ant, and network cables. And the reason why is all of those items work on modulated radio frequencies. The easiest way to explain it is like this. Take a computer and a broadband modem and connect them via cat5 Ethernet cable. Someplace along the cable cut it, and then splice all 8 wires back together the best you can. You will still get somewhat of a connection to the modem. But your going to get all sorts of packet loss, all sorts of connection errors along the way. And your speed is going to be closer to dial up than it is to DSL, and not even close to the broadband it should be. The same thing is going to happen between whichever display your using, and the rest of your equipment/network.
 
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