does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

ngt

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I took my motor in and dropped it off at a shop last night. The guy said the same thing everyone here said...carb cleaning. Said it would run about $100-$175. ($90 per hour and 1 to 1 1/2 hours on it.) But then he said there was a carb adjusting thing on the motor that you couldn't get to and he would have to drill out something in the carb. Why would the company make an adjusting screw for something that you had to drill something out to get to? Anyone ever heard of this before? It's a 2008 4stroke tohatsu 9.8hp. Seemed like a cool, super nice guy. He sounded very knowledgeable and had a shop full of Nissan/Tohatsu motors in a very well off city for the area I live in. From what I saw, I have no reason to doubt him, but I was just wondering if anyone else had heard of this issue.
 

Sea Rider

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

Sounds weird, if you dip carb in real carb clean for hours, can't see why dip will no reach inside all carb's parts and passages. Probably a new carb is cheaper, personally don't like experiments no matter how skilled sounds a shop guy. Try soaking the carb again for some 4 hours in real carb clean and then water test if still with internal trouble. Or it's a way to sound super pro with client and justify his high handlabor prices ????

Happy Boating
 

TOHATSU GURU

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

No, do not let him do it. It is unnecessary. Just have him clean it correctly and it will be fine. The setting he wants to get to is to adjust the air mixture. It is fixed by federal law and is not to be touched...Except by lazy mechanics who cannot clean a carburetor correctly.
 

Vintin

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

No, do not let him do it. It is unnecessary. Just have him clean it correctly and it will be fine. The setting he wants to get to is to adjust the air mixture. It is fixed by federal law and is not to be touched...Except by lazy mechanics who cannot clean a carburetor correctly.

Good to hear the Feds are on top of things! :rolleyes:
 

ngt

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

No, do not let him do it. It is unnecessary. Just have him clean it correctly and it will be fine. The setting he wants to get to is to adjust the air mixture. It is fixed by federal law and is not to be touched...Except by lazy mechanics who cannot clean a carburetor correctly.

So I called in after work and the shop was closed. What's the scam here? Is he not going to actually clean the carb? or just drill a hole and turn some screw that will let me motor run until it clogs up again later?? Is what he's doing against federal law? I really want to know what I'm talking about when I go in there on Saturday. If he did something that is illegal, I'm not going to pay for his time doing it. Man, this boat motor **** is really starting to **** me off. Why can't I find someone who works on boat motors that's straight up??

He said he was doing this to better adjust the motor for running in a different place than it was manufactured. He also said that if I was out somewhere and this started happening again in a couple of years, I could adjust it to get going and back to the dock. Is this all bull****?

Is there a chance he will actually do the real carb clean correctly? Or is this just something people do to rip people like me off and he's not going to actually take the carb apart and clean it at all?
 

NetDoc

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

These were very common on cars before fuel injection replaced all the carburetors. They were there to prevent unnecessary tampering as well as to stop vibrations from messing with the adjustments, but there were no laws that precluded us from removing the caps. They are almost all made of aluminum and replacements were put into many of the carb kits. It took but a second or two to remove them and I found that a self drilling screw like they assembled aluminum screen enclosures worked best. The threads would catch and it would pull the plug right out. After the cleaned and rebuilt carb was set, you were supposed to put a new cap on. Many of us didn't do that and I can't think of a single vehicle that had a problem with it.
 

ngt

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

These were very common on cars before fuel injection replaced all the carburetors. They were there to prevent unnecessary tampering as well as to stop vibrations from messing with the adjustments, but there were no laws that precluded us from removing the caps. They are almost all made of aluminum and replacements were put into many of the carb kits. It took but a second or two to remove them and I found that a self drilling screw like they assembled aluminum screen enclosures worked best. The threads would catch and it would pull the plug right out. After the cleaned and rebuilt carb was set, you were supposed to put a new cap on. Many of us didn't do that and I can't think of a single vehicle that had a problem with it.


So I'm sitting here freaking out for nothing?
 

NetDoc

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

So I'm sitting here freaking out for nothing?
That would be my take. That being said, I am not a marine mechanic, so I can't comment on "its against the law". It was an incredibly common thing for us to do as automotive mechanics. Once you adjust float levels or replace the seat on the carburetor, its impossible for the same idle setting to be perfect. Sounds to me as if the guy is trying to be thorough rather than trying to cheat you. You know him better than us, so you'd be a better judge of that.
 

ngt

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

That would be my take. That being said, I am not a marine mechanic, so I can't comment on "its against the law". It was an incredibly common thing for us to do as automotive mechanics. Once you adjust float levels or replace the seat on the carburetor, its impossible for the same idle setting to be perfect. Sounds to me as if the guy is trying to be thorough rather than trying to cheat you. You know him better than us, so you'd be a better judge of that.

I hope you're right. The guy seemed like a good guy and is an authorized Nissan/Tohatsu mechanic. I hope everything works out. Thing that gets me is, if the motor runs when I pick it up, I won't know what he did or didn't do to it. I really have got to get off of my *** and start learning more about boat motors.
 

NetDoc

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

The guy seemed like a good guy and is an authorized Nissan/Tohatsu mechanic. I hope everything works out.
Me too! Sometimes mechanics tell the customers TOO much and get them worrying. More often they don't tell them enough and the customer assumes things will be done one way and the caca hits the fan when they are not. Its hard to know when to shut up at times.
Thing that gets me is, if the motor runs when I pick it up, I won't know what he did or didn't do to it.
Ask for your old parts! Rly. A bag of old gaskets etc helps relay the message that you are checking. While this should be a routine service, it rarely gets accomplished. Unless its a rebuilt part, you really instill a huge level of trust by returning the parts to your customer. They might ask you to toss them right then and there, but there is no question that you did the work.
I really have got to get off of my *** and start learning more about boat motors.
No time like the present to start learning. Lots of knowledge here and elsewhere. There are community colleges with programs in small engine repair as well. Any and all experience can be useful so avail yourself of whatever opportunities that might come along. Most importantly: HAVE FUN! You'll learn more quickly that way.
 

pvanv

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

Both Elvin and Pete are quite correct.

The brass plug that prevents access to the idle "pilot" screw can be removed, but it should not be needed if the carb goes through a proper bath in real carb dip. The EPA required that plug so that we consumers couldn't easily tinker with the idle mixture settings, which could increase emissions. The screw is set at the factory, using very sophisticated instrumentation, and is 99% perfect 99% of the time. Attempting to set it in the field would require a very experienced ear, and a very accurate tachometer, as well as some testing time. Mal-adjustment in the field can cause a lot more problems that it remedies.

The 9.8A3 runs very lean, in order to keep emissions low. In order to accomplish that feat, and still keep the motor running acceptably, those carbs have long, narrow passages. That helps to keep the air/fuel mixture emulsified better. The trick does work, but those very narrow passages will varnish up easily, especially with today's poor fuels. If you religiously run the carb dry at the end of every day, you will minimize that buildup.

If the "clogged arteries" in the carb are marginal, it would be theoretically possible to enrichen the mixture with that pilot screw to regain some improvement in low speed operation. But that would not clean the carb. If the carb was then subsequently cleaned correctly, your low speed mixture would be too rich, causing premature plug fouling, and increased emissions.

OTOH, if the mechanic removes the plug, precisely counts the turns of the present position of the pilot screw, then removes the screw to gain better access to the brass seat that the screw meters against, completes a thorough cleaning, and resets the screw exactly where it was from the factory, no harm, no foul. In the rare event that a piece of metallic debris has wedged in that metering orfice, removal of the screw might allow it to be cleaned out more thoroughly.
 

ngt

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

thanks for all of the advice and information everyone. I hope it's the second situation above. I don't know if there are going to be any parts to ask for if it's just dripping this thing out and cleaning the carb, but if there are, I'll be sure to ask for them.

As for the guy, he seemed really laid back and did have a shop in a pretty rich area. I figure he has to do good business just to stay around there. He didn't seem to trust the guy that worked on my last motor, which got him more points with me because the other guy was a scam artist. Which is why I got worrying so easily. I've only taken a motor to one shop and got burned...so that's my only experience. I'm picking it up Saturday morning, so hopefully it will all be good when I get there.

Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to drill this thing out. The guy charges $90 per hour and I was told a carb clean would run 1 to 1 1/2 hours....+ this drilling thing. Trying to get a ballpark on this before I head down there.
 

NetDoc

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to drill this thing out. The guy charges $90 per hour and I was told a carb clean would run 1 to 1 1/2 hours....+ this drilling thing. Trying to get a ballpark on this before I head down there.
On the auto carbs of yesteryear, this was a minute or two proposition. Its probably covered in that 1- 1 1/2 hour window. Ask ahead of time to be sure!

Again, if the needle and seat are replaced or ANY adjustment is done on the float, the old setting is useless. A CO or a Four Gas Analyzer is what is needed to set the beast perfectly, but that circuit is only used at idle. After I warmed a vehicle up, I would go as lean as possible without having a crappy idle and then check my emissions. Once off of idle, it doesn't matter WHERE you have that screw set.
 

TOHATSU GURU

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

I think the overall point is that it is just unnecessary to drill the thing out. What generally occurs is that a mechanic does not know how to correctly clean the carb and resorts to an alteration that compnstates for their lack of ability or luck. We never, ever have to drill them out. Other mechanics do it right off the bat to avoid fixing the real problem. Is it legal. Not if you alter the setting...And that's the point of getting to it. And yes, there is a big Federal fine for getting caught. Does anyone ever get caught? Nope. So is this crap pointless? Yep.

But, drilling it out is still unnecessary so I don't think it should be done. It's alwyas possible to set it too lean and fry the engine.
 

phillnjack2

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

The simple and correct answer to the questions above is let him go ahead and do it properly.
Anyone doing a proper carb clean will take out every screw possible.
All passages should be cleaned with carb cleaner and where possible carb brushes used.
Once all passages are considered clean then compressed air should be used to try and help
with the cleaning process.
Now if just one screw is left in the the whole process could be a waste of time and effort.
It only takes one very small piece of dirt to be lodged in a passageway to upset the running of an engine.
So yes the screw should be taken out and that passageway cleaned through as well.
The plug he is talking about just has a tamper proof plug, it is normal to be taken out and cleaned through.
if the carb sent back to manufacturer they too would take this out when reconditioning.

I would let the guy do a proper job and then he will no doubt re-set to what suits the engine best.
 

ngt

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

The simple and correct answer to the questions above is let him go ahead and do it properly.
Anyone doing a proper carb clean will take out every screw possible.
All passages should be cleaned with carb cleaner and where possible carb brushes used.
Once all passages are considered clean then compressed air should be used to try and help
with the cleaning process.
Now if just one screw is left in the the whole process could be a waste of time and effort.
It only takes one very small piece of dirt to be lodged in a passageway to upset the running of an engine.
So yes the screw should be taken out and that passageway cleaned through as well.
The plug he is talking about just has a tamper proof plug, it is normal to be taken out and cleaned through.
if the carb sent back to manufacturer they too would take this out when reconditioning.

I would let the guy do a proper job and then he will no doubt re-set to what suits the engine best.

thanks! that's what I was hoping. I just wish I read this before reading the first post and kind of freaking out, emailing a mechanic with all types of worried questions about laws and things being illegal. lol. Oh well. I pick it up tomorrow morning and feel confident that everything will be better than it's ever been with my motor. I can't wait to get back out on the water next week during vacation.
 

NetDoc

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

Anyone doing a proper carb clean will take out every screw possible.
I'm sorry, but we're going to have to agree to agree on this one! :D I have rebuilt more carbs than I could possibly remember and its incredibly important to strip it clean. This includes idle jets, emulsion tubes, air jets and any idle screws. Better write down what came from where when it comes to the idle jets, but leaving them in is not a good idea. No, not all are removable, but they should be!
 

jerryjerry05

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

There are some passages that WON"T get a cleaner in there no matter how long you soak them.
The welch plug is easy to remove and replace.The guy sounds like he know what he's doing.
Some carbs come preset.Some don't.But if yours is gummed up it's probably necessary to remove/clean it.
 

pvanv

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

Jerry, the plug is an anti-tamper plug. The orfice in question is actually visible to the eye once the top access cover is removed, BTW, so while it's OK to pull the plug, it is far from necessary.
 

ngt

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Re: does this make sense? drilling out something in the carb?

Here's what the carb looks like now. Does this look right?

IMG_1138.jpg


IMG_1140.jpg


IMG_1139.jpg
 
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