EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

[seahorse5]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Let me clear up a couple of points on the FICHT engines that are in discussion.

The pinned heads came out in mid year '99 for the '98 and '99 60? 150-175 cylinder heads. These were part of the update kit and redesign to make the engines run better and not soot up the internals which caused the piston failures and plug fouling. The factory sent teams of mechanics throughout the country to upgrade both customer engines and dealer engines. Later in the year, the kits were available to dealers to upgrade the motors that did not get the factory reps to do it.

The FICHT Ram came out with the 2000 models with 40 volt injectors and an EMM instead of a separate ECU and voltage regulator. It also was the first to alternate cylinders when changing from the lean-burn to the regular combustion mode at around 1500 rpm or so to make the engine run smoother during the transition.

The FICHT does not and did not cut out different cylinders at idle, it runs on all 6 continuously. Some models of the Yamaha HPDI engine do that as did some of the the Yamaha OX66 engines.

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Yeah if they had I would have noticed, because without specific knowledge of that one could chase a ghost for a long while. Are you saying they change the combustion mode in a cascade for better throttle response? My understanding of the fuel injection used on these models has been they follow a map which takes into account demand, throttle postion, cooling temp and etc. I did not know the injectors reacted differently at a particular speed.

As far as I know about HPDI, they cut cylinders only at idle out of gear. Its starts at 2 and 3 and continues, depending on time idling to cut it down further till it gets to two. Once the shift switch sees a gear it stops this. Haven't done a whole lot of work on these other than rebuilding the engines and dressing them for customers.

The OX66 goes from idle in gear with a few cylinders missing to a point where all hit at a certain speed, where they all hit fully. I may be wrong on that score. Oddly my experience with Yamaha's has mostly been with the four stroke monsters. Had a coworker doing some work on one of these, as we are a BRP dealer we don't see many Yamaha's yet (just got our Yamaha certs), so he had to call a buddy and got the score on them. He passed the info on for me.

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Are you saying they change the combustion mode

YES ! any ficht idles and runs at low rpm in a stratified lean burn combustion. the earlier fichts changed to homogenous combustion at 2800 rpm, with introduction of "ram" it was changed to 1500-1600 rpm. the lean burn is for keeping the plugs clean at prolonged trolling and idling , but they discovered running in lean up to 2800 rpm is very hard on the pistons so they changed it. the lean burn at idle is also a reason the fichts are sensitive to correct plugs and indexing them.

seahorse is also pretty right with the voltage change with the "ram" introduction , in any case "ram" is far more than a decal on the cowling .

the 3 cyl idle on a V6 is interesting . faztbullet claimed it previously and i was surpized, never heared that, but took it as a fact since it sounded from solid knowledge. yes- a cyl drop down test resulults in a rpm drop, yes, all injectors seem to work even in idle. with the latest comments which seem valid with my experience i seriously doubt again a ficht shuts cylinders on idle , but cannot say for sure.

does somebody misunderstand lean burn in idle with shutting cylinders ? hopefully we can find out if a 3cyl idle on the ficht is a myth or fact.

In fact I was under the impression, from school, hands on and generally just common sense that they did not foul as much with oil as a two stroke carb model is the fact that the oiling is handled electronically and based on engine demand and other factors. Even the old VRO system couldn't do what the electronic, EMM controlled pumps can do.

its even more than that. any carbed two stroke , VRO or not, finally sucks an oil-fuel mix through the crankase and so lubricates parts.

a ficht or etec sucks pure air and pure fuel is injected . oiling is done via the distributor and provided directly to parts needing lubrication. thats the secret they have such better emmisions that any carbed two stroke and duch a low oil consmuption.

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Aye Aerobat, that was what I was trying to say. With the advent of XD100, with superior lubrication properties that can be drawn down to even less oil given the load, speed and etc. We agree on something.

I am still interested in the gradual changing of each cylinder on transition. I had always had the understanding that the economy, transition and power curve was determined by the map which would move the engine through the power range by timing and injection duty width as a monolithic change (each cylinder transitioning as a whole). We didn't get this info at school and I haven't done enough research. It is interesting.

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Of course I am talking BRP XD100, I realize that other manufacturers have made similiar strides in lubrication.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

does somebody misunderstand lean burn in idle with shutting cylinders ? hopefully we can find out if a 3cyl idle on the ficht is a myth or fact.

Did you not read or understand the last paragraph in post #61 ?

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Did you not read or understand the last paragraph in post #61 ?

i did and tend to agree with you by own experience that a ficht never drops cylinders even on idle but faztbullet ( on other ficht threads also) seems to be ready to put his b@lls on the table that a V6 ficht idles on just three cylinders , so i,m surprized if there is any proof for that or if he just mixes lean burn idle on all 6 with a drop down to three.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Faztbullet is incorrect and not familiar with FICHT systems in this case

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Seahorse5, can a dealer get the injector parameters from BRP IF PROVIDED ONLY WITH A serial number? Or can they not? This is a big thorn in my side....I need to get parameters for 6 older injectors. They have serial numbers only, no QR code. Sorry OP, highjack I know, but this thread is all over the place anyway. Still don't want to try a known good EMM, I see......

 

[seahorse5]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

OEM injectors that were installed when the motor was produced are to stay with that engine for life, not to be put in a different one. For that reason, the factory will not give out parameters to anyone. If an injector has to be replaced for any reason, the service injector came with an installation disk with the parameters on it to program into the EMM. Newer ones need a check-sum code along with the parameter numbers that a dealer accesses online with the factory.

If a dealer needs the older parameters for a service injector, he can get those from the factory as long as there is a currently trained tech in his employ. Outside the US and Canada, everything is handled by the International Sales division and they may have their own policies.

In the US, the EPA has its regulations and requirements for manufacturers and that is why there ain't no modifying engines or changing emission outputs for any reason, fines and/or jail time adds teeth to the EPA regulations.

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Faztbullet is incorrect and not familiar with FICHT systems

that will surely hurt his b@lls...

I am still interested in the gradual changing of each cylinder on transition. I had always had the understanding that the economy, transition and power curve was determined by the map which would move the engine through the power range by timing and injection duty width as a monolithic change (each cylinder transitioning as a whole). We didn't get this info at school and I haven't done enough research. It is interesting.

at least the ficht ram switches generally at 1500-1600 rpm from lean burn to homogenous , when you know it and look carefully for it you feel the "switch". beyond that it has an engine mapping that determines fuel injection and ignition in regards to many items like load, air pressure and much more.

the etec does the same but with a more powerful EMM and so even more efficient. i cannot say if the switch between lean burn / homogenous on an etec is generally rpm dependant or dynamically calculated - at the ficht this is only rpm fixed like said.

 

[boobie]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

I worked on the very first Fichts in '98 and then on up through the E-Tecs. I've never heard of what Fatzbullet was talking about the cyl firing order and running on three random cyls.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

That's funny, I worked on the very first FICHTS back in 1996 when the '97 model was first introduced as a 150hp 20" bass boat motor.

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

ok, so it seems this all here...

...didnt even know that 60?fichts ran on random cylinders till a couple of months ago

Ram was just a name added to the cowl as the name ficht was getting a bad reputation

a carb engine idles on all 6 cylinder and a ficht idles on 3 random cylinders so it going to be smother,if it ran on all 6 like a carb idle would not be smooth at all.

is not more than a brain fart from a self named ficht expert...?

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

intesting post to read and its intresting to see where the ficht came from and how it ended up with a bad rep.
The fuel injector parameters sound like a pain especially as that was not the original design but added later after they found the rejection rate on new injectors was to high during production. Reading the original design garb they planned to have the injectors interchangeable but they were rejecting to many during production that were still good injectors so they added offsets in the fuel map to allow the injectors to be used. It made no sense that they would keep the off set numbers a secret until seahorse posted about the epa then it makes perfect sense.
I have to question the part about only fuel and air is mixed in the cylinder as the original one had a 200:1 oil addition to the injector to help reduce build up on the injector tip or was that changed at a later date.
The injectors moving numbers when installed with out a hard reboot sounds normal as the numbers have to be moved in the processor bios and that only happens on a reboot and im guessing that evinrude tecs can do this from the software where ebay software may not have all the options.
The reason im so intrested is that i see them sold cheap when theres a problem and ive always wondered if it would be a engine worth playing with.

I hope the op gets a ans to his problem which seems to be a problem that may be the start of a failed emm
so how much does a rebuilt emm run or does that depend on the one you sent in.

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Just to clarify, I am using the Evinrude Diagnostic Software version 4.5, not any kind of Ebay software you refer to....The version 4.5 software I use has no place for a "checksum" entry when programming injectors. It has four available parameters and the serial number of the injector. Now, maybe one of the parameters is the "checksum" but I doubt it. I can verify at a future date, by deliberately changing some of the parameters one at a time. IF THE CHECKSUM FEATURE EXISTS, the software should kick out an error regarding checksum mismatch. I seriously doubt this is a feature or function, to be honest. A serious problem that I have with whole system, is that the expected range, or normal values, for the monitored variables is not provided, especially in the factory service manual. For example, what is the range or normal value for Oil Frequency Pulses at idle? I got no idea if I am looking at good readings or bad. The range for Exhaust Pressure? The range for Fuel Duration? Start of Fuel? This is a fairly tough system, very proprietary. But it can be figured out.....

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

One other thing, a discussion with DFI a few months ago gave me a price of $750.00 complete re-build, all fixes implemented, for an '02 EMM that was blowing the 20 amp fuse only when cranking to start. Key on did not blow the fuse. Only when the EMM was attempting to generate spark did it blow the fuse. DFI absolutely indicated to me that they knew what that failure was exactly, had seen it many times before. Same as this OPs "three light salute", seen it, been there, done that, got the t-shirt....common failure.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Daselbee,

You are using old obsolete software that does not work on newer motors or checksum injectors.

The newer version 5.x has a users manual available and it is also explained in the later service manuals, the product update manuals, and taught to the dealers in the training schools.

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Yes, I am aware that I am using the older version. It works with my engine, and I don't work on ETecs. I still state that my version has no checksum parameter. We are talking about an engine from the era that version 4.5 was provided for diag work.

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Some models of the Yamaha HPDI engine do that as did some of the the Yamaha OX66 engines.

in regards to yamaha HDPI vs ficht/etec i have one more question and never found a solid answer to it :

when you hear a yamaha v6 hdpi idling it rumbles and sputters like you usually expect it from a 2stroke at idle.

the ficht/etec V6 sounds at idle completeley different, in fact it sounds more like V6 4 stroke. where is the secret to it, both engines are direct injected and not carbed .

look here .

yamaha HPDI sound

Yamaha 150 HPDI 2005 - YouTube

ficht v6 sound

225 Evinrude Ficht Injection Outboard Idling - YouTube

i hope you understand what sound difference i mean