Employers going too far?

JoLin

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Re: Employers going too far?

The difference here tho' is the legal/law system looking to facebook (again) to draw evidence from.
Do you guys agree with the 'Law' being able to access facebook if you are involved in some sort of litigation or??

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/04/30/bc-lawsuit-facebook-pictures.html

In all probability her facebook habits are probably going to negate her getting away with a......lawsuit?
....be interesting to keep an eye on this.
BP

No, I don't agree at all with that ruling. I'm not saying whether or not the lawsuit has merit, but a bunch of pics on Facebook tell nothing of a person's day-to-day quality of life. She's claiming 'diminshed capacity' and I can relate to that.

I have Stage 3 emphysema, and on the days when I feel well I can do almost anything, long as I take my time. The problem is the days when I don't feel well and have to sit around tied to a nebulizer and/or oxygen concentrator. Those aren't the pics I'd be putting up on Facebook. I stopped working last year because I had become unreliable, and my boss and my project teams needed to depend on me every day.

IMO, it'd be pretty unfair if pictures of me out on the boat or fooling around in the water were used as 'proof that I'm not really sick'

My .02
 

bruceb58

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Re: Employers going too far?

Speaking of the facebook legacy and being careful what you post of yourself. Here is another one that might bite the facebooker in the butt. The difference here tho' is the legal/law system looking to facebook (again) to draw evidence from.
Do you guys agree with the 'Law' being able to access facebook if you are involved in some sort of litigation or??

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/04/30/bc-lawsuit-facebook-pictures.html

In all probability her facebook habits are probably going to negate her getting away with a......lawsuit?
....be interesting to keep an eye on this.
BP
I agree with that ruling. For anyone that is doing any of the sports she has been seen to do can easily be working.
 

JoLin

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Re: Employers going too far?

I agree with that ruling. For anyone that is doing any of the sports she has been seen to do can easily be working.

I contend that the pics themselves are irrelevant. I'll repeat that I'm not making any judgement on the validity of her claim...

1. A pic of her hiking. Okay, I go walking, too. I can easily conceive of her going out with her friends and walking a half mile while her friends continue on their 5-mile hike, 'cause that would be my situation.

2. A pic of her scuba diving- water exercises are the easiest of all, and used for rehabilitation all the time.

3. A pic of her wakeboarding. Was she wakeboarding or sitting on a wakeboard? Was she trying to see if it was manageable, or too painful to continue?

I push myself as much as I can all the time, because the idea of 'doing the right thing' and staying on oxygen 24x7... well, I'd rather end it now. As far as being able to work, you don't know that, either, and I'll again use myself as an example. By your standard I can work, too. But, what employer will hire me if I'm honest? I'll tell him he can expect me to be too sick to work at least 20% of the time, that there will be no forewarning that I'll be too sick to work, and that it'll only get worse from this point on.

Again, I'm not defending the woman- I'm stating that using something like Facebook to make a case is arbitrary and irrelevant.

My .02
 

bruceb58

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Re: Employers going too far?

Not saying anything about your case. What you are saying about yourself seems valid to me. A reasonable person would think the same if viewing your pictures right?

Just viewed a video of Law Days of which her Facebook photos are being requested. Requires a LOT of physical activity. If she can explain the limits of the activity that is shown in the photographs then she shouldn't have a problem. The pictures are rellevant as far as I am concerned. If she is claiming she can't do certain activities anymore and pictures show that she is doing them then they are rellevant.

My ex wife worked for a disability company that hired private investigators when someone was on disability to make sure they were truly disabled. Had one guy that says he was disabled and was painting houses during the week and riding jet skis on the weekend. This guy was erecting scaffolding and climbing up ladders all day long.
 

Tim Frank

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Re: Employers going too far?

I contend that the pics themselves are irrelevant. I'll repeat that I'm not making any judgement on the validity of her claim...

1. A pic of her hiking. Okay, I go walking, too. I can easily conceive of her going out with her friends and walking a half mile while her friends continue on their 5-mile hike, 'cause that would be my situation.

2. A pic of her scuba diving- water exercises are the easiest of all, and used for rehabilitation all the time.

3. A pic of her wakeboarding. Was she wakeboarding or sitting on a wakeboard? Was she trying to see if it was manageable, or too painful to continue?

I push myself as much as I can all the time, because the idea of 'doing the right thing' and staying on oxygen 24x7... well, I'd rather end it now. As far as being able to work, you don't know that, either, and I'll again use myself as an example. By your standard I can work, too. But, what employer will hire me if I'm honest? I'll tell him he can expect me to be too sick to work at least 20% of the time, that there will be no forewarning that I'll be too sick to work, and that it'll only get worse from this point on.

Again, I'm not defending the woman- I'm stating that using something like Facebook to make a case is arbitrary and irrelevant.

My .02

You are making the leap that allowing these pics to be entered into evidence in a litigation will somehow result in a decision guided by them alone.
If that were the case, I might agree with your opinion.
But there will be ample evidence introduced to bolster the case made by the snapshots (which are de facto in the public domain) as well as to refute them.

That is why these cases don't get filed, heard, and decided in an hour or two.
May the most convincing (and hopefully accurate) story prevail!
 

JoLin

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Re: Employers going too far?

Not saying anything about your case. What you are saying about yourself seems valid to me. A reasonable person would think the same if viewing your pictures right?

I won't keep this up interminably. Promise.

A person viewing the kinds of pictures I'd put on Facebook would conclude that I'm perfectly healthy, and if I were trying to make a case otherwise, would be unjustifiably prejudicial unless I posted an equal number of pictures demonstrating my disability... and who does that? That's my point. A frivolous social network like Facebook is a terrible source for factual, much less legal, information.

I think I'm finished :)
 

bruceb58

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Re: Employers going too far?

I agree with Tim. The pictures are just one aspect of the case.

Facebook is just a source of the pictures. Has nothing to do if its a social network at all. Pictures could have easily come from any web page, neighbor, friend acquaintance for that matter.

I am finished too :)
 
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Re: Employers going too far?

I know I am coming late to this conversation, but let me add this.

I lost my job recently, due to a bunch of stuff that really did not have much to do with me. However, as I was being told I was being suspended with pay, the EX employer mentioned some comments I made on Facebook.

These comments were related to the reason why I was getting suspended, mainly that I HAD NO IDEA WHY I WAS GETTING SUSPENDED.

The superintendent looked shocked that she had even mentioned it.

Then things got weirder. People who I used to work with who I was not friends with tried to start friending me on Facebook.
After that, a few people who were my friends told me that many were deleting theirs, due to comments that had been made about me.

I do not believe employers should have this much power of the speech rights of the employees.

I did not try to defend the Constitution of this country for this long only to have someone be able to dangle my personal beliefs and comments over my head in lieu of a paycheck. RANT/
 

joewithaboat

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Re: Employers going too far?

I think that if people were not carrying around smart phones and posting to their face book from work that most employers could probably care less. Because they are it is seen as a liability.
 

joewithaboat

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Re: Employers going too far?

I never posted from work.

I of course am speaking in general terms and know nothing specific about your case other than what you put here.

One thing i do know... My wife and I will never have this problem, as we dont do face book or myspace.

As a side note... at her company both of these sites are of the many that are blocked from the intranet.
 
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Re: Employers going too far?

As it should be. Work is for work, not socializing. However, in many cases I believe employers are going farther and farther in their quest to control their workers completely. I worked at Wal Mart for a few months after I got off of active duty. We had several people talking about unionizing, and within a few weeks they had either all had their schedules drastically altered, their hours slashed, or any other number of things to force them to quit. A few were outright fired.

I know of a massive search for a teacher here in Oklahoma that dared put out a letter about the fact that the school districts could hire three to four teachers for the price of one administrator (at the school I was teaching at, we had six principals total for a school of just under 1K students).....

Just because I work somewhere, unless I sign certain nondisclosure statements or confidentiality agreements, I should have the right as an American to say whatever I want.
 

joewithaboat

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Re: Employers going too far?

As it should be. Work is for work, not socializing. However, in many cases I believe employers are going farther and farther in their quest to control their workers completely. I worked at Wal Mart for a few months after I got off of active duty. We had several people talking about unionizing, and within a few weeks they had either all had their schedules drastically altered, their hours slashed, or any other number of things to force them to quit. A few were outright fired.

I know of a massive search for a teacher here in Oklahoma that dared put out a letter about the fact that the school districts could hire three to four teachers for the price of one administrator (at the school I was teaching at, we had six principals total for a school of just under 1K students).....

Just because I work somewhere, unless I sign certain nondisclosure statements or confidentiality agreements, I should have the right as an American to say whatever I want.

I agree with what you are saying... but also would add that an employer should also have the right to let you go if they want.

In a general sense the union operations i have specific knowledge of... useless workers are impossible to get rid of. In these four that I know specifics about there are plenty of these blood sucking leaches and we all pay for them in one way or another.

In my area the well funded but pathetically operated public school has 2.1 administrators for every 1 teacher.

Disgusting!

The private school we send our Kids to operates on a shoestring compared to our public schools yet outperforms them in every way.

When i say that i know specifics, I mean I have family members that work there. I just dont like to air that out on the internet.
 
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Re: Employers going too far?

We do not really have a teacher's union in Oklahoma. So your comment about letting people go? Don't I know it. My stepdad was a union truck driver for 20 years, and when they got laid off, or anything like that, they helped us out.

In our area, the problem tends to be that teachers with experience and Master's degrees are more expensive to hire because they have better skills and training..so schools put first year teachers through a meat grinder. I have also seen a great deal of rampant nepotism.

I do not believe an employer should have the right to fire you for any reason. Here is why:

Right now the perception of disabled veterans are we are all gun toting PTSD psychotics or drug addicts. I had one interview that it was going great until I got to the disability part.

Teachers get treated as if they are somehow lazy. I was working 12 to 14 hour days and doing loads of work on my own time. I also bought my own lab supplies. I will not go farther into it.

Occasionally you get a good private or charter school (Sounds like you did) but most do not perform better unless they have discriminatory enrollment practices. One of my classes was over 50% special education and I rarely had the special education co teacher in my room.

The more of this type of power employers get, the worse it will be for anyone working. For instance, say you have been doing a job for ten years, with no raise. Someone ten years younger than you comes along and is willing to work for less than you are. You are out of a job.

Is that right or fair? The time when employers did right by their employees is long past. Now, anything bigger than a mom and pop small business follows only the bottom line, and if the workers do not have a living wage...so what.
 

joewithaboat

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Re: Employers going too far?

We do not really have a teacher's union in Oklahoma. So your comment about letting people go? Don't I know it. My stepdad was a union truck driver for 20 years, and when they got laid off, or anything like that, they helped us out.

In our area, the problem tends to be that teachers with experience and Master's degrees are more expensive to hire because they have better skills and training..so schools put first year teachers through a meat grinder. I have also seen a great deal of rampant nepotism.

I do not believe an employer should have the right to fire you for any reason. Here is why:

Right now the perception of disabled veterans are we are all gun toting PTSD psychotics or drug addicts. I had one interview that it was going great until I got to the disability part.

Teachers get treated as if they are somehow lazy. I was working 12 to 14 hour days and doing loads of work on my own time. I also bought my own lab supplies. I will not go farther into it.

Occasionally you get a good private or charter school (Sounds like you did) but most do not perform better unless they have discriminatory enrollment practices. One of my classes was over 50% special education and I rarely had the special education co teacher in my room.

The more of this type of power employers get, the worse it will be for anyone working. For instance, say you have been doing a job for ten years, with no raise. Someone ten years younger than you comes along and is willing to work for less than you are. You are out of a job.

Is that right or fair? The time when employers did right by their employees is long past. Now, anything bigger than a mom and pop small business follows only the bottom line, and if the workers do not have a living wage...so what.

I get what you are saying... but i also see it from both sides.

The portion of the company my Wife works in has no union... however they have a great atmosphere, promote from within, get regular reviews and raises for good performance. There is a union portion of her company and the comparison is sad. Lots of careful dialog, constant worrying about violating some rule, the whole thing is sad.

I believe that if you hang your hat on a job that requires you to be young/strong to perform a task you shouldn't be surprised when they replace you with a young person.

Employers have to be profitable in order to be successful unless supported by taxation such as a public school. You dont have to look far to find a company that has been busted buy union leverage on wages, benefits.

The Post Office is a great example, been operating in the red for sometime. It will likely be dismantled in the future. If they were not protected by federal laws they would have been run out of business by Fed Ex or UPS a long time ago.

I have had many jobs in my life, everyone i have left on my own. Almost without exception they all asked me to stay when i gave notice. I now work for myself.

Private schools are run like a business and that's why they perform so much better. If a teacher doesn't perform he/she is sent packing. If a student doesn't perform he/she is sent packing.

I was recently told by a College enrollment Person, that came to our school for a learning session with parents, that they consider a student from private schools such as ours that gets B's and C's a better entrance candidate than an A student from a public school.
How sad is that.
 
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Re: Employers going too far?

I do not want to get drawn into a defense of different ideological positions. I have read the research from independent organizations and the benefits are not as vast as one would expect.

I would like to kill the myth of all the "bad teachers" but unfortunately it seems in our culture it is fine to bash the teaching profession. It is honestly why I am considering going back to the medical laboratory, even though the work is nowhere near as exciting.

The main problem with teaching and public schools these days are massive federal unfunded mandates.

Also, your mention of the Postal Service? That was a murder. They are required to put up billions of dollars for future retiree benefits, and that was required by a federal law....no other business does that. Someone is killing the post office on purpose. And out here in the country, that is going to be a disaster.

Long story short, we are trending every closer to a neofeudal structure in America, with the "job creators" being the aristocracy, and then on down to the poor ignorant wage slaves.

On that note, I will just respectfully agree to disagree. I am hoping I see polite political discourse come back one of these days.
 

joewithaboat

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Re: Employers going too far?

I do not want to get drawn into a defense of different ideological positions. I have read the research from independent organizations and the benefits are not as vast as one would expect.

I would like to kill the myth of all the "bad teachers" but unfortunately it seems in our culture it is fine to bash the teaching profession. It is honestly why I am considering going back to the medical laboratory, even though the work is nowhere near as exciting.

The main problem with teaching and public schools these days are massive federal unfunded mandates.

Also, your mention of the Postal Service? That was a murder. They are required to put up billions of dollars for future retiree benefits, and that was required by a federal law....no other business does that. Someone is killing the post office on purpose. And out here in the country, that is going to be a disaster.

Long story short, we are trending every closer to a neofeudal structure in America, with the "job creators" being the aristocracy, and then on down to the poor ignorant wage slaves.

On that note, I will just respectfully agree to disagree. I am hoping I see polite political discourse come back one of these days.

I also have no problem agreeing to disagree...and dont want to make it a political argument.

The post office, who pays wonderfully in retirement, has more people in retirement than working. Doesn't take a math major to figure that out. They were forced to put up billions because the were borrowing muti billions from the federal government (tax payers)


Don't worry about being in the country. The private sector will pick it up when the are allowed by law to do so.

I think, as a culture, what we are lacking is personal responsibility. As a worker if you have no fear of being replaced for not being worth what you are paid than where is the incentive to do good/better.

Small business provide most of the jobs. If we continue to make it more risky for them, high unemployment will continue and will grow. Look everywhere around the world for evidence of this.

Teachers are protected here big time! We have some bad apples that unfortunately make the whole bushel smell, we cant get ride of them.

Almost half of my outrageous property taxes goes to fund the public schools. We dont even use them. I feel like that gives me the right to speak poorly of them as long as i speak the truth. :)
 

tx1961whaler

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Re: Employers going too far?

Agree with LibraLab on one thing. The post office is a pretty crappy example. First of all it is a "service", not a "business". We don't really expect the police or fire or water or library dept "services" to be great profit centers. Look up “Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006”. It requires the postal service to pre-fund the retirement plan for the next 75 years over a 10 year period. This is absolutely unheard of in the private sector. The very great majority of the "red-ink" from the postal service has come from having to pay over 5.5 Billion dollars a year for this. They would come close to break even if the mandate was not there.

I have my kid in a private school but used to have him in public. I see nothing particularly earth-shattering going on in the private school as far as superior teachers or teaching methods. Normal teachers, normal PRE-SELECTED UPPER INCOME kids who perform no better than their counterparts in the suburban public school districts with similar demographics. Maybe worse. Plano public schools (rich-ish suburb) had more National Merit Scholars this year than did all of the Dallas private schools combined.
 

joewithaboat

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Re: Employers going too far?

Agree with LibraLab on one thing. The post office is a pretty crappy example. First of all it is a "service", not a "business". We don't really expect the police or fire or water or library dept "services" to be great profit centers. Look up “Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006”. It requires the postal service to pre-fund the retirement plan for the next 75 years over a 10 year period. This is absolutely unheard of in the private sector. The very great majority of the "red-ink" from the postal service has come from having to pay over 5.5 Billion dollars a year for this. They would come close to break even if the mandate was not there.

I have my kid in a private school but used to have him in public. I see nothing particularly earth-shattering going on in the private school as far as superior teachers or teaching methods. Normal teachers, normal PRE-SELECTED UPPER INCOME kids who perform no better than their counterparts in the suburban public school districts with similar demographics. Maybe worse. Plano public schools (rich-ish suburb) had more National Merit Scholars this year than did all of the Dallas private schools combined.



I agree that it is a service. It used to be that they could say they were the only government agency that made a profit. As long as they dont leverage themselves into pay and benefit programs that are unsustainable i could care less. When the numbers quit working, as they have with the numbers in the Post Office and they need low or no interest loans that are funded by the tax payer... now i have a problem. You cant keep returning to the goose for more gold.

One of the major police departments in north Texas is well on its way to similar problems. They can pay themselves however they want as long as the numbers work. They private invest to support their very well paid pension, it has not done well lately. Guess who will be asked to cover that gap. You guessed it Tax Payers. This is happening all over the country.

Public sector pay has outpaced the private sector for a couple decades now and it is all coming to a head because of the slumping economy. It used to be that the worker took the lower paying job in order to secure the good retirement. After 20 years, while we enjoyed a booming economy, they have bumped the pay as well.

If you don't like private schools than why are you using them?
 

tx1961whaler

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Re: Employers going too far?

If you don't like private schools than why are you using them?
Didn't once say I didn't like them. Just don't believe all of the hype surrounding private and charter schools. Just the fact that the family cares to go through the effort to see to their child's education automatically makes the kids a pre-selected sample. Do you really think that a parent paying 15+ grand a year tuition would actually admit that their choice is not a superior one? Just think about it. If all the elite private school kids somehow turned out to be "better" than their public school peers, then they would have been some sort of super-race bred many decades ago. Hasn't turned out to be the case.

Our choice for education was a long one. We fully intended for our kid to be public educated, and did so through 2nd grade. Turns out he is gifted academically, and there was not any program in place to handle this, nor are their any incentives or mandates whatsoever to address their needs. This is actually a nation-wide problem. We look after the least of us, as we should, but we let the brightest ones "take care of themselves" because they don't need help to pass the test. I can't say that I'd do any different if I were his teacher.
Soooooo, we found a school that was better able to address his particular educational needs. Many of his friends are doing just fine at the old public school, and I'm under no illusion that mine will turn out any better at the end of it all.
 
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