Ethanol and fuel system problems

[Silly Seville]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Living in the Midwest, I've been forced to use E-10 since 1991. I remember back in the late eighties when the push for regulating regular leaded out of existence was happening. My hotrodding/musclecar building pals would complain about having to add cans of LEAD to their gas because the gov't was pulling it from the pump fuel. I remember this sort of murmuring among car nuts that without lead in the gas, engines would be suffering catastrophic failure all over the place. As it turns out, millions of cars did not stall along the roads of America when we finally got the lead out, and many of those 60's and 70's engines are still in use today, probably in a lot of our boats. I'm not trying to make a case for or against the use of ethanol, I just think it really amounts to the way one maintains their equipment. As others have said, a neglected engine/fuel system will eventually fail with age, abuse or neglect regardless of the fuel being used. I park my boat at the end of October and it sits until the beginning of May, outdoors. Fill tank at winterization, add one can of Seafoam, and it starts right up and runs fine on that 7 month old E-10 the following year.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Well, intolerance certainly does contribute to human woes....a wise old guy I once knew had a saying...."reasonable people can disagree"...sage advice...

That said....In my now several hours of research, I have yet to find anyone have a "fix" for the dreaded alleged "phase separation" from the ethanol.....and then there's the issue of fiberglass/plastic fuel tanks melting...

...the fellow who said he was going to make popcorn and watch probably had the best idea...

That's because the dreaded "phase separation" doesn't pertain to the vast majority of inland water boaters or even coastal boaters if those boaters use their fuel rather quickly. Inland water boaters tend to have smaller tanks, use their fuel more quickly, and have less moisture (humidity) to deal with. In the last two years i've done some fuel separation tests where a container of fuel was left open for over six months. This fuel was untreated and there was simply no hint of a problem. I poured the gas in my mower and cut the grass.

 

[Dolfan0925]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

So then there are people who never use a Stabil type product? I thought the additives were just a part of life.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

silvertip's experience is in this statement: "Here in the tundra our boats..." So all you tundra dwellers, listen to him. But those of us on the mid-Atlantic coast and similar environs are in a different world, and have a different experience. Here, ethanol is the source of many problems with boating.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.

 

[nlain]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

In 1987 I bought a new boat with a 3.0L engine here in the coastal Southeast, we had ethanol in our highway gas at that time, I ran that gas in my boat for the 17 years that I had it and never had a problem. Yes it was a new boat when I bought it so nothing old or gummed up for the alcohol to clean or dissolve, so that was not an issue. In those days I knew nothing about treating gas with anything, so it stayed in the tank just like it was put in. The boat was always stored with a full tank of gas, no air for the alcohol to get moisture out of. The boat was also used most of the time often enough to not have a separation problem. At one point, due to circumstances beyond my control, the boat sat on the trailer for over 2 years with a full tank of gas. When I got so I could use the boat again, I changed the oil, cleaned and set the points, put in a battery, started the engine on the flush attachment. it ran fine. I backed up about 50 feet and put the boat in the water and ran it, it ran fine on 2 + year old gas that contained no treatment to maintain it life. I do not think phase separation is as bad as we are led to believe. Yes I do believe that the ethanol will clean tanks, affect old rubber hoses and old tanks, the gum will clog carb jets, lean out air fuel mixture, then if not taken care of the engine dies. The ethanol did not kill the engine, lack of proper maintenance did. Just my thoughts.

 

[lncoop]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Mostly because some have deeply held beliefs that may or may not be factual, and they freak out if anyone contradicts them and the discussion turns real ugly real quick. This is not at all a homogeneous group here on the forums.....

And even more mostly (don't think that works grammatically, but you get the point) because rule number two expressly prohibits the discussion of politics, hot button social issues, and religion. You did read the rules, right? I'll call myself out now. My barge has a 90 horse Merc. I parked her (trailered) in late September with a quarter tank of gas with the promise to myself that I would fill 'er up and add some Startron within two weeks. Well, guess what?:redface: I'm fortunate enough to be off today so if the rain quits I plan to fill the tank, add some snake oil, and turn the key (with the muffs attached of course). I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

I purposely pointed out that boat owners on the coasts and in locations with very high humidity as well as those low usage boats with large tanks can indeed have moisture issues. So do low use airplanes. Having lived in coastal areas but not owned a boat at the time, nor was E10 available, I cannot attest to seriousness of the issue. I contend however, that reasonable preventive measures on the part of the boat owner could greatly reduce these issues. Since phase separation pops up in comments from those folks it would seem that the service agencies would be looking at ways to deal with this issue. Since we have various centrifugal oil and fuel filters on the market (yes they are expensive) but so is repeated engine work due to a fuel related problem, why not look at something other than the plain old water separating fuel filter. I do not have enough time left on this planet to search for a solution but I would make a small wager that if I did live on the coast, did have a boat, and did have fuel related issues, that I would find a way around that issue. To do nothing about a potential issue is almost a guarantee that the issue will result in a problem for you. Failure to fix a leaky roof is a guarantee that stuff inside will get wet. Service departments are certainly not going to rush to the rescue since "problems are their livelyhood". So that leaves it up to the boat owner to stop listening to all the fuel related stories and act on your own experiences. The vast majority of technical problems can be solved through simple trial and error but using reasonable thought processes. Who knows, you might stumble onto a fix that makes you an overnight millionaire. The way I look at this stuff is that unless you learn and adapt you become a victim. It has worked for me for the entire 71 years of my life and I still attend technical and personal growth seminars. You are never too old to learn. OK -- the cat's out of the bag.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

I mentioned it earlier that TilliamWe "People who had fuel problems before ethanol, continue to have fuel problems after ethanol."
and I agree.

I also know that ethanol has been around and in our tanks for longer then we realize. It has raised an opportunity for the snake oil sales and increased the "preventative" maintenance on motors. Similar to your family car when the dealer recommends all of the "suggested" maintenance procedures. Silvertip hit it right on the head " Service departments are certainly not going to rush to the rescue since "problems are their livelyhood"."

Startron must be a miracle cure........ 1 ounce treats 6 gallons that is a 1:768 ratio however, people use it.

By the way..... has anyone noticed the sky is falling?

 

[lncoop]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

I mentioned it earlier that TilliamWe "People who had fuel problems before ethanol, continue to have fuel problems after ethanol."
and I agree.

I also know that ethanol has been around and in our tanks for longer then we realize. It has raised an opportunity for the snake oil sales and increased the "preventative" maintenance on motors. Similar to your family car when the dealer recommends all of the "suggested" maintenance procedures. Silvertip hit it right on the head " Service departments are certainly not going to rush to the rescue since "problems are their livelyhood"."

Startron must be a miracle cure........ 1 ounce treats 6 gallons that is a 1:768 ratio however, people use it.

By the way..... has anyone noticed the sky is falling?

I will be the first to admit I really don't know if the snake oil works or not. All I know is I used to have a Johnnyrude mechanic when I had Johnnyrudes and he said to use it. Now I have a Merc mechanic because I have Mercs and he says to use it. So, I used it in my Johnnys and I use it in my Mercs, and heretofore I have had no fuel system issues. Is it due to the Startronbilfoam? Don't know, don't care. To me it's a couple bucks well spent since it gives me peace o' mind. Heck, if I didn't blow it on that I'd blow it on fishing cigars or something else I shouldn't be putting in my body.

 

[brielly]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Ethanol is definitely not the best solution, but i don't think its going anywhere. I live in NJ where boats are stored for many months at a time. I purchased both of my boats having been stored for 2 and three years respectively with ethanol fuel and had no problems whatsoever. The fuel was still good! I did have to replace some fuel lines that were bad but thats it. Ethanol will eats the older and some newer lines over time. As was mentioned its a matter of keeping up with mantanence. I believe humidity has a huge part in how much water gets in your fuel when its stored. Winters in NJ are very dry and I've never had a problem with water in the fuel when storing for 6 months with stabil and a full tank. If I lived in Florida I would be more concerned as the humidity is often very high. As long as you keep your fuel system clean and have a good filter you should be fine using ethanol fuel.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Ever notice that all E10 gloom and doom articles are written by people that have something to sell you?

The EPA's position on it.
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

Additional reading
http://tennessee.gov/agriculture/publications/ethanol/1_E10fuels.pdf
http://www.a1distributors.net/files/Ethanol_dos_and_donts.pdf

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

One more thought on the "snake oil" issue. If one uses any snake oil for any issue and if the issue never occurs again, can one honestly say it doesn't work? I would think if Stabil, SeaFoam, Startron and all the others didn't work then there would be no repeat buyers. Stabil has been around for a good many years as has SeaFoam. Some, like SeaFoam have been discovered by boaters more recently. I've used it for years and contend it does work. It is an excellent decarboning agent for two stroke motors as well as a fuel system treatment. Is it the only one? Certainly not. There is only one way to know whether a product works or not. Try it. Keep in mind however that snake oils are not mechanics in a can. Most are intended for "preventive" purposes and in some cases mild "corrective" purposes. It is relatively safe to say that most snake oils cannot bring a dead or seriously ailing engine back to life.

 

[lncoop]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

One more thought on the "snake oil" issue. If one uses any snake oil for any issue and if the issue never occurs again, can one honestly say it doesn't work? I would think if Stabil, SeaFoam, Startron and all the others didn't work then there would be no repeat buyers. Stabil has been around for a good many years as has SeaFoam. Some, like SeaFoam have been discovered by boaters more recently. I've used it for years and contend it does work. It is an excellent decarboning agent for two stroke motors as well as a fuel system treatment. Is it the only one? Certainly not. There is only one way to know whether a product works or not. Try it. Keep in mind however that snake oils are not mechanics in a can. Most are intended for "preventive" purposes and in some cases mild "corrective" purposes. It is relatively safe to say that most snake oils cannot bring a dead or seriously ailing engine back to life.

Yeah, so take that Bob!

 

[R Socey]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

O.K guys - after trying to assimilate a huge amount of information - much redundant, to the point where I think my brain
has phase seperated, I decided to make things simple. I ran a goggle search on the MECHANICAL benefits of alchohol attenuated gas, and found ZERO! My search to the contrary discovered an overwhelming amount of negative claimes - go figure.http://www.fuel-testers.com/gasoline_octane_and_ethanol_E10.html

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Gas with ethanol cleans, and keeps fuel systems cleaner. There's a benefit. It also is less expensive. Second benefit.

All this other doom and gloom is propaganda.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

O.K guys - after trying to assimilate a huge amount of information - much redundant, to the point where I think my brain
has phase seperated, I decided to make things simple. I ran a goggle search on the MECHANICAL benefits of alchohol attenuated gas, and found ZERO! My search to the contrary discovered an overwhelming amount of negative claimes - go figure.http://www.fuel-testers.com/gasoline_octane_and_ethanol_E10.html

Fuel Busters is a woman sitting in her basement in Georgia selling alcohol fuel test strips on the internet.

Nobody is saying it's good to use. People are telling you don't listen to the nay-sayers who want to sell you something. E-10 is not the end of the world if you take proper precautions

I boat the exact same waters you do. Put an average of 250-300 hours my motor. In the 5 plus years I've been running E-10, I?ve only had one fuel related issue and that was caused by a bad o-ring in one of my gas caps. My fuel tanks have not rusted out. My fuel lines have not melted. I didn't have to replace all the gaskets in the motor and my motor still runs like a top.

Who do you want to believe? A neighbor that has lived it and has no reason to tell you otherwise or a women sitting in a basement in Ga. spreading tales of ultimate demise in an attempt to sell test kits

 

[Dolfan0925]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Fuel Busters is a woman sitting in her basement in Georgia selling alcohol fuel test strips on the internet.

Nobody is saying it's good to use. People are telling you don't listen to the nay-sayers who want to sell you something. E-10 is not the end of the world if you take proper precautions

I boat the exact same waters you do. Put an average of 250-300 hours my motor. In the 5 plus years I've been running E-10, I?ve only had one fuel related issue and that was caused by a bad o-ring in one of my gas caps. My fuel tanks have not rusted out. My fuel lines have not melted. I didn't have to replace all the gaskets in the motor and my motor still runs like a top.

Who do you want to believe? A neighbor that has lived it and has no reason to tell you otherwise or a women sitting in a basement in Ga. spreading tales of ultimate demise in an attempt to sell test kits

Yeah who do you want to believe? A random person on the internet, or a different random person on the internet?

 

[NYBo]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

 

[lncoop]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

That's outstanding! Where'd you find the popcorn eating smiley?

 

[NYBo]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

That's outstanding! Where'd you find the popcorn eating smiley?

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/popcorn.gif