ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

Texasmark

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
14,778
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

I'm sitting on the sidelines reading all this and I am awed and amazed at this pile of stuff. So who is in the know and who is blowing smoke?<br /><br />Can't tell it from the bleachers.<br /><br />Mark
 

imported_Curmudgeon

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 29, 2004
Messages
496
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

At these prices it helps lower the cost per gallon, it adds octane, better for the enviroment and we use less arab oil.<br /><br />This statement has to be right out of Liberal Hugger Monthly! You get a woody from hugging that tree?
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

I put a lot of miles on with the blend downstate in the truck and the boat<br /><br />And a of of miles Upstate at Lake George were they still have real GAS Its a kick in the pants ever summer when we get a full tank of the good stuff<br /><br /><br />And theres nothing they have added that has not resulted in my truck getting less MPG than 100% GAS<br /><br />tommays
 

BillP

Captain
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

Are my 1986, 1991 and 1996 motors ok or not?<br /><br />Don't run ethanol on 1940, 1953 & 1974 motors? <br /><br />What it is?
 

KM2

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Oct 15, 2003
Messages
556
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

OC Your ignorance annoys me, that's the facts not some liberal tree hugger crap. <br /><br />First, Ethanol may not be lower the cost in many places now because of the shortage but it does here. <br /><br />Second I breath air, my family breaths air so I like it clean. <br /><br />Third Pure ethanol is approximately 115 octane<br /><br />Fourth I would much rather give my fuel dollars to a farmer than to the middle east. <br /><br />If this makes me a tree hugger I'm proud to be one. Maybe I'll change my name here and get a tree for an avatar!
 

imported_Curmudgeon

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 29, 2004
Messages
496
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

You certainly make it easy!<br /><br />Ethanol may not be lower the cost in many places now because of the shortage but it does here.<br /><br />Sooo, considering Mn has required gay gas for some time, just what do you compare the price to? And where might those shortages be, certainly not down south. To think fuel distribution costs could do anything but go up when ethanol has to be delivered to terminals, stored, and mixed is really stretching the concept of reality, even for Minnesoootans!<br /><br />Second I breath air, my family breaths air so I like it clean.<br /><br />Once again, what do you use for comparison? Most rural states had pretty good air even before gay fuels were mandated, including Mn.<br /><br />Third Pure ethanol is approximately 115 octane.<br /><br />Even if vehicles could burn pure ethanol (which they can't, even in progressive places like Mn), what exactly does 115 octane (it goes up everytime an expert pontificates on the wonders of ethanol) have to do with air quality, or anything else besides engine detonation?<br /><br />Fourth I would much rather give my fuel dollars to a farmer than to the middle east.<br /><br />You think that's what's happening, do ya, the farmer gets it and the Arab doesn't? Riiight! <br /><br />Maybe I'll change my name here and get a tree for an avatar!<br /><br />Do let us know when you do so we'll know it's just you and not another hugger hawking feel-good fuel!
 

cobra 3.0

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
1,797
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

Ethanol is a joke. It requires the growing of corn. Corn requires the largest amounts of pesticides and fertilizer to grow from any crop(this is good for our environment?). And to top it all off, ethanol requires more energy to produce than it provides!
 

Texasmark

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
14,778
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

Well guys, Brazil must not know this beins they are foreign oil independent and their internally produced ethanol, which they run at 100% per the news article, is half the price of fossel fuel. Then they go on to talk about what they do with the grain solids which are left over from the distilling process. Sounds pretty environmentally safe to me.<br /><br />On shortages, I have read where the MTBF or whatever the current "oxidizer" is, is being phased out and ethanol being phased in. Apparently this has to work it's way through the distribution system.<br /><br />We have one local gas station (Texas if you missed that. Grin) that just stuck a 10% ethanol sticker on his gas pumps. He must have converted (his refinery). The others have not.<br /><br />My Merc owners manual which dates back thru the mid '90's says that 10% ethanol is ok for those engines.<br /><br />HTH<br /><br />Mark
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

so far 15% is yak yak yak here but they are yaking about it and as some parts of the state grow a lot of corn and the farmers bend ears in raligh I can see it coming. so far we have straight fuel in my area.<br /> never ran 100% ethanol but methanol I have.<br /> methanol runs well burns clean and the octane rating is 100 so you can bump the mechanical compression ratio and milk a bit more power.<br />the stochiometric burn rate is about 7/1. ethanol is similar. it takes almost twice as much ethanol to make the same power as gasoline. its just how it is. brazil has a bit cheaper labor rate and their program uses sugar cane which can grow year round there. that and sugar cane does not deplete the environment like corn. <br /> and yes most systems built since the mid 80's can tolerate 10% blends if the correct maint and storage procedures are used.<br /> getting information from the engine manufactures is like pulling teeth and rubbing alladins lamp.<br /> but we do see some large tankls that will tend to phase . means as the boat sits moored in 85+% humidity with atmospheric tank vents the moisture and alcohol tend to settle out and the tank pick up grabs slugs of it and sends it to the engine. thats when the issues start.<br /> marine use has different fuel issues than automotive. the usage patterns,engine loads and fuel system desighns are quite different.<br /> time will tell.
 

Mercr

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
Messages
40
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

Here in Colorado, along the front range, we've been force fed 10% ethanol blended auto gas for decades. It is mandated from November to April. It's supposed to help clean up the air. They also use it as an excuse to raise the price by about 10 cents a gallon. <br /> <br />I've found that it reduces automobile gas mileage by about the same amount as the % blend. I've seen this YEAR AFTER YEAR! 30 MPG becomes 27. 20 MPG becomes 18...<br /> <br />It must be "special" - it costs more, it doesn't go as far, and - as suggested in the original post - can cause filter clogging/fuel delivery problems in unclean systems. I've seen that on a lesser scale, each Fall when the first loads arrive. Rough running as ~6 months of gunk dissolves & works it's way through. It eats rubber based gaskets. <br /> <br />'Just my 2 cents & 20-30 years of experience with the "crap"...
 

byacey

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
443
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

Alcohol does not contain as much BTU of energy as what an equal amount of gasoline contains. You can run pure alcohol, but it is necessary to rejet the carburetor to enrichen the air fuel mixture. This is for a 4 stroke engine, so I am not sure what the implications are with the oil mixture on a 2 stroke. I would guess without changing the Air / fuel mixture the engine would develop less power.
 

walleyehed

Admiral
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
6,767
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

quote:<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> sorry, but the 10% blend adds no octane..., and it still will eat the gaskets out of some carb kits and the guts out of some fuel lines.<br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Wrong and wrong. Ethanol raises octane - read any technical discussion of fuelds, suich as at the ChevronTexaco webs site. <br /><br />Any gaskets, fuel lines, and other rubber parts made since 1990 are designed to tolerate 10% ethanol.
With all "due" respect, you don't know squat about this whole deal....your knowledge is something you've read.<br />I've had it EAT the carb gaskets out of a 2004 carb kit with a manufacture date of the same year, and, it DOES NOT add octane...it is a partial replacement. If it added Octane, we wouldn't have to back the timing off a degree or 2 for best performance..and I can prove that (and have) due to higher combustion temps at a given RPM, then back timing off slightly and temps come back down.<br />Do some serious studying before blasting off about what is what.<br />Also, it jacks over your fuel milage as well..been there, tried it on several occasions over the past 5yrs and it don't produce the same power or milage as a result.<br />Also, if ethanol raised the octane, howcome they leave it at std pump octane included in the ethanol sticker???? :rolleyes:
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

I cant say it raises the octane but with no rejetting an already lean burning emission controlled engine gets really lean, thats why your combustion temps spike and you have to back off the timing.<br /> with modern electronics and sensors if the blend ratio is held constant fuel delivery can be altered electronically to suit the fuel and airflow of the engine. cars typically hold less than 30 gallons and its usually burned up quickly and by law the fuel system has to be sealed. a 33 grady holds 335+ gallons and may sit moored in a puddle in 85%+ humidity. that means at 10% about 35 gallons of that is ethanol.<br /> maybe someone can post the water absorption rate, best I remember its about 3 Oz per gallon under the right conditions of high ambient temp and high humidity.however as the water,alcohol and gas will tend to seperate the water reacts with the gasoline and creates acids that attack various parts of the fuel system, most cars dont use fiberglass or Aluminium fuel cells. most marine does.<br /> some of the acids actually eat polyesters.<br />so far I dont see much of a scramble to head off an upcoming problem.<br /> ethanol and methonol both have octane ratings in the 100 range and both have a stochiometrect ratio in the 7 parts air to one part fuel, gasoline is roughly 14 parts air to one part fuel.it takes roughly twice as much volume of alcohol to make the same power as gasoline.<br />however as we get engines that are designed to run primarily on alcohol you will see some compression ratio increases to make more power with less fuel and total engine displacements.<br /> the engine operating and load characteristics of a marine power plant is vastly different than that of the average chebby going to food lion.<br />at 15% load and 2300 RPM the average EFI motor will not show any bad drivability issues.<br /> the average 5.7 in a 24Ft hull with an average RPM of 4000 and an average loading of 85-90% will.<br /> ever notice how all the nascar cup cars are all run of 6-9 month old fuel with 3 year old plugs and last years cooling systems ?<br />heck they even store the fuel in open barrels in the cement pond.<br />and why change the cap and rotor even if its 6 years old, its only got 50 hours on it. clean the vapor seperator filters or the water seperator? its only got 75 hours on it at 5 years old and the book says every 100, no one pays attention to the OR part.<br /> so yes we will see issues the auto guys never ever dream of much less have nightmares about.
 

Dunaruna

Admiral
Joined
May 2, 2003
Messages
6,027
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

Originally posted by cobra 3.0:<br /> Ethanol is a joke. It requires the growing of corn.
And about a dozen other crops, including sugar cane, potatoes..............<br /><br />any starchy crop.
 

cobra 3.0

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
1,797
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

Corn is the main crop in North America. Besides, what a waste of cood corn! It would be best to use it to make JD! ;)
 

B.M.W II

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
89
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

It seems I have opened a can of worms. But the response is what I thought it would be. This stuff will do OK in a car but the marine engines might suffer. This is the point I was trying to make to (upinsmoke) it will run great in a 2006 Impala. It will do fine in my 1999 surburban. But my 1984 merc outboard might have a problem. This is the last thing I wanted to hear. This may be the way the government phases out these older motors. Later guys, Joe
 

Jan Z

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Messages
49
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

This fuel sucks in outboards.<br /><br />I went through this garbage last year with a new motor, added a Raycor ten mike water fuel filter/separator, and am using marine fuel stabilizer and the motor still took a dump this spring.<br /><br />Last year with less than 50 hours, the carbs had to be rebuilt and re-jetted, due to this fuel. At that point, the Raycor was added and stabilizer was a standard use item after every fuel up.<br /><br />During storage this winter the boat was stored with a full tank and was ran for 30-45 minutes at a fast idle every 2 weeks all winter.<br />The boat has a 21-gallon tank and seven to ten gallons of fuel were exchanged every month in the boat to keep the fuel fresh.<br /><br />A new fuel filter carter age was installed late March as well <br /><br />The boat was stored in late October and Yesterday I took it out for the first trip of the season and frankly although it ran, it ran like crap. <br /><br />Hard to start, poor idle, hesitation on acceleration, loss of power and rpm's at the low end, at the high end rpm's (5000+)it ran better, but still wasn't running as well as last year.<br /><br />Last season the boat would hit 30 mph @ 5900 rpm this year it barely hit 5900 and only did 26-27 per the gps.<br /><br />Bottom line is that I have a new boat and motor that I have owned since 5/9/2005 and due to the Yamaha motor and this fuel, it gets to go back to the shop yet again with less than a hundred hours on the motor.<br /><br />Yamaha sent me a customer satisfaction survey a while back, I saved it until I could take the boat out this spring, here is the "Attached letter" that is going back to Yamaha with the survey.<br /><br />5/5/2006<br /><br />I have owned my Triumph 150CC since 5/9/2005 and overall it is a fine little skiff for inshore fishing, the Yamaha 40 four-stroke was reputed to be a good engine although I am more than a little disappointed at its performance to date. The first hint of a problem was last year with the motor was hard starting and refusal to idle until warmed up and it got progressively worse to the point where the motor would die and not run.<br /><br />The problem was attributed to the change from MTBE in California to ethanol mix gasoline in June/July ‘05 here and ethanol’s absorption of water causing corrosion in the carburetors. <br /><br />The fix was easy, the carburetors were re-jetted and rebuilt (Although getting the jets from Yamaha in Japan took quite a bit longer than expected) a Raycor filter was added with a ten micron water fuel separating cartridge. I think Yamaha should have alerted the dealers to insist on the installation of a filter with the new boat since they knew there was a problem with the ethanol fuel. <br /><br />I was advised by my dealership to use fuel stabilizer and run the motor twice a month during winter storage. Now here it is 5/5/2006 and after the first fishing trip of the season the motor is unfortunately not running correctly again, it is sputtering, not idling well, surging, and loosing power at low speeds. The fuel filters were changed and the fuel is fresh. <br /><br />In my opinion the low speed jets are restricted/clogging up again by the way it’s running, once you apply more throttle the rpm’s increase and the surging quits although there is a noticeable lack of top end performance, this is pretty much a repeat of last years problems.<br /><br />I am impressed with the fuel economy, if I keep an easy hand on the throttle and keep the speed down around 15-17 knots I get an impressive 8.75 per gallon. On one trip, I kept the speed to 15-16 as a test and got ten miles per gallon. Top speed is right at 30 kts @ 5900rpm last year, top speed today was about 26 mph @5900.<br /><br />In addition, if you were wondering, I would get the same boat again (Although I might go with a different engine)<br /><br />I’ve owned several different boats in the past with larger motors made by Evenrude, Mercury and Johnson and honestly I must add here that I didn’t have the troubles with those motors that I’ve had with this Yamaha. I maintain my equipment in perfect order and as one’s life can literally hinge on the dependability of the motor with the ocean conditions here when crossing Humboldt Bay bar having a motor that will not run well places my life on the line.<br /><br />I would like to add that the Outboard Center where I purchased the boat and motor has been very helpful and 100% supportive on fixing these issues and their service is top notch. <br />I will be taking the boat back in on 5/10/06.<br /><br />When the motor is running correctly it is a pleasure to use, however having a motor with less than 100 hours on it and having these kinds of problems makes me wonder if I made the right choice. <br /><br />To sum this up I am a happy Triumph owner and a very unhappy Yamaha owner at this point in time. <br /><br />xxxx
 

waterinthefuel

Commander
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
2,728
Re: ethanol blend gas WARNING !!!

I read once that if we wanted to become oil independent we would have to grow corn over about 80 percent of the land area of our country. We wouldn't import oil, at that point we'd have to import food. <br /><br />It is true, ethanol can be made from any starchy crop, also even from weeds. They can make the stuff from almost anything. If it's a cleaning agent and clogs filters because the lines were already full of crud so be it. Clean fuel systems are efficient. <br /><br />I was told the cost of a gallon of ethanol would be about 1.60. <br /><br />Admittedly my only real knowledge of the stuff is through reading material.
 
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