Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

jegervais

Chief Petty Officer
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Jan 18, 2002
Messages
646
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

OOPS, I got fat-finger syndrome on the keyboard, I've edited my post.<br /><br />Found my info on the Evinrude dealer only site, that means it should appear on www.evinrude.com pretty soon.<br /><br />Forktail, you're correct, we could compare till the cows come home, the point of my posts is, regardless weight or gear ratio or ...(pick your item), they do appear to hold their own and that will make them competitive in their hp range in the market.<br /><br />I've run a couple of them at dealer meetings and frankly I was a little skeptical too. But they (the ones I ran) ran darn nice. They are certainly cleaner under the hood, there isn't a mass of wiring and plumbing running every which way. <br /><br />They have some pretty cool features too. For example, the in-gear idle speed is factory set at about 800 rpms. With the diagnostic software, the in-gear idle speed can be reprogrammed in 10 rpm increments, down to 550 rpm or up to 900 rpm. The winterization feature is pretty slick too. The early feed-back I'm hearing is that they are running very well, but, as has been mentioned before "I guess we'll have to wait an' see". <br /><br />Personally, I'm very interested in seeing something in the 150/175hp range with this system on it.<br /><br />My apologies for the earlier typo.<br /><br />-John
 

Forktail

Ensign
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Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Be careful of the data you're getting from Evinrude John. Something still doesn't look right.....<br /><br />Even under perfect conditions (impossible) with zero prop slip (impossible), there is no physical way an outboard running 5500 RPM with a 2:1 gear ratio and a 15 pitch prop can do 39.7 mph.<br /><br />5500 engine RPM with 2:1 gear ratio = 2750 RPM at prop.<br /><br />2750 prop RPM X 15 pitch prop = 41,250 inches per minute.<br /><br />Converting to MPH: 41250"/min X 1 foot/12" divided by 5280 ft/mile X 60 min/hr = 39.0 MPH. Again, this would be the maximum speed under perfect conditions.<br /><br />39.7 MPH would indicate one heck of a tail wind or tail current. But then again, I found the same problem with your first 40 hp example on the Carolina 165. No way it can do 32.8 MPH at 5425 RPM. <br /><br />Maybe Evinrude's method of collecting data has a high margin of error...in their favor. ;)
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
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Jan 24, 2002
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Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Forktail,<br /><br />Your calculations are correct, but if that was a 17" prop, the speed would be right in the ballpark taking into account average slippage. Perhaps it was typo.<br /><br />About the amount of E-TECH info that is floating around that you commented about. Last Feb. they were introduced to the news media and others at the Miami Boat Show where they also received the NMMA Innovation Award. Since then, they have been at dealer shows, dealer demos, and early this month, the production models were at the Stuart test station where the boating media got to test the series on various boats for several days using their own equipment for speeds, sound levels, and fuel consumption. You will see their stories in the next few months probably. There have been some tests already published in the European media, I understand
 

Forktail

Ensign
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Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Your calculations are correct, but if that was a 17" prop, the speed would be right in the ballpark taking into account average slippage. Perhaps it was typo.
If it was a 17 pitch prop, the RPM would drop, resulting in less speed.<br /><br />How many typo's are we going to have? He fixed this "typo" once already! The CARB rating was a "typo". The gearcase thing was a "typo" too. And we haven't even accounted for the fact the 40 hp on Carolina Skiff 165 doesn't jive either. Another "typo"? Gee, could any of that "remarkable" data be a "typo"?<br /><br />I think the data is more "hype" so guys like you, Backfire, and John buy into it without thinking twice. <br /><br />Boat shows, dealer demo's, and the media hype have little to do with how the outboard will perform on the water, day in and day out. Only the merciless ocean will be the teller of that.<br /><br />Again, I hope the E-Tech works out, and I'll put them on my boats if they do (I love Bombardier products). Until then they need to earn it.
 

jegervais

Chief Petty Officer
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Jan 18, 2002
Messages
646
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Look, no slamming or disrespect intended here ok? :) <br /><br />You're running theoretical computations, which with an engineering background is I guess what I would expect. The problem with theory is... well, it is theory and in reality it's probably fairly accurate the overwhelming majority of times, but, sometimes in practical applications it's not.<br /><br />In my experience as a trained and certified marine technician, I have seen an engine's performance miss the mark miserably and I have seen a few more exceed the mark.<br /><br />Case in point, my personal boat. An engineer from Lund Boats once told me I could never get less than 5% slip at best out of this hull design. He started into this long disertation about hull design and the hydrodynamics of gearcase and prop designs... Frankly, I didn't understand a hell of alot of what he was going on about, but listened politely and thanked him for his time when we ended our call. Well, I tweaked on my set up and now actually have less than 2% slip. My rig outruns most newer hulls with the same (150) hp and out runs a few of the older (same) hulls with 175 hp on back. Hey maybe my 150 is on the hot side of the hp curve, but it didn't perform as well, before I tweaked it.<br /><br />What's my point? Prop/gear ratio/speed/slip calculations are mathematical - black and white if you will. I don't know about anyone else, but the world I live in is in living color!<br /><br />Like I said previously, we'll just have to wait and see. <br /><br />Once again Forktail you're correct, the engine has to earn that respect. I think it will.<br /><br />I double checked during my (last) edit - There are no further typos in my previous post regarding the 75hp engines.<br /><br />Regards to all, have a pleasant evening.<br /><br />-John
 

RatFish

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Messages
647
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Here! Here! Respect must be earned. It is not bestowed. Only time will tell.
 

walleyehed

Admiral
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Jun 29, 2003
Messages
6,767
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

I'm gonna have to back forktail on this because I've been to the Bomb. site, and looked hard at the performance specs, and the numbers on most are IMPOSSIBLE!!!! I've found several MPH figures they list would indicate LESS THAN zero slip-not possible. I don't think they are true MPH figures, it appears they are using theory only-impossible to be actual.......... ;)
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
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Jan 24, 2002
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4,698
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

John from IL made a good point and reminded me of some prop work from years ago. The Bombardier stainless steel props have a lot of cupping on the tip which theoretically adds to performance, and the rule of thumb back then was to add one inch of pitch to calculations to account for the cupping. That would make the prop a 16" and with around 5% slippage, the posted figures are close.<br /><br />Another thing is that a prop like that does not have a standard pitch from one end of the blade to its base. It is a compound curvature that varies over the length of each blade. So what is called a 15" pitch prop can be anything, for example, from a 20 pitch at the root, to a 10 pitch at the tip. Then an aluminum 15" prop has a different blade shape, less cupping, and thicker blades to make up for strength, and that prop will perform differently than the high tech stainless steel version.<br /><br />All in all, the proof is on the water, but this may shed some light as to why theory and reality are sometimes a ways apart (concerning props, that is).
 

Tracy Coleman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
215
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Tonight seahorse gets a couple of ATTA BOYS for the prop dissertation. Some years ago the theory<br />was the earth was flat, still subscribed to by some today. I say the prop is the fluid torque converter, what say U?<br />Backfire ;)
 

SeaDawg

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Messages
418
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Fellas, I'll throw some more trivia here, just because I was blown away last weekend with a Yammy 225 HP 4-stroke. I'm an engineer, so I always like new toys and ideas. But I also deal with facts all day too. Here's some recent facts.<br /><br />One of my best fishing friends just got a new 225 Yammy 4-stroke for his 1987 (spotless in everyway -looks like a new one) 24 ft. Offshore Grady White cuddy cabin. He mounted all of the controls himself, and the dealer installed the motor. He took it for (2) 1 hour creek runs (varying the RPMs, yada yada), and then went offshore 70 miles and put another 7 running hours that trip (do the math, and you can see he made pretty good time). He then invited me to go this past Sunday with him and another friend (11/23/03), and we left out of Ocean City, MD to the Washington Canyon, and I closely watched everything on his boat. First off, he squeezed the primer bulb once, hit the key, and it instantly started. AND, we could not hear it running over the wind. We then rode over to his friends 25 ft. Dolphin GW (our "pardner boat", with twin 200 2-Stroke Suzukis), and proceeded to go over 60 nautical miles to the Washington Canyon area, and we led the way and ran between 30 and 32 knots (they sold him a 15 pitch prop, and he can easily handle a 17 pitch with this boat -the new prop is due this week). His fuel meter is very accurate, and it showed better than 2 nautical miles per gallon going out (almost twice as good as the original 1987 motor fuel usage). And it continued to purr like a kitten all day long, you could easily talk over it going out, and there was NO engine shake at any time during the trips. It would snap your head pretty good too, when he got on it, and we did boat a nice 60+ pound longfin too (canned my share of it last night - yummy!!).<br /><br />His only problem with the boat now is he has 200+ gallons of fuel capacity (too much now), and he is seriously looking at taking out one of the 100 gallon tanks and making a huge tuna fishbox in the boat, since he rarely goes to the Canyons in a 24 footer anyway. NOTE - I DO NOT recommend anyone being as crazy as we were (middle of winter, going 60 - 70 miles offshore with only 3 boats in the area, etc.), but I would NEVER even considered doing that with an e-tec engine at this point, until they prove themselves.<br /><br />Yesterday, he scheduled his first oil change, and will get the 17 pitch prop, and I'm looking forward for some really nice striper trips with him.<br /><br />Hey - I've always been a 4-stroke man, and even more convinced now.
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

John, the point of my "theoretical" calculations were to show that even under absolute perfect conditions, the boat could not achieve that speed.<br /><br />I agree that "reality" and "practical" applications always apply. But to that extent, we would have to subtract speed for slippage, drag, and environmental conditions. This makes the speed data even less likely. In other words, if the outboard can't possibly achieve those speeds theoretically, it certainly can't achieve those speeds under practical conditions.<br /><br />BTW, 5% slip is phenomenal, and very hard to achieve in a practical application.
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

The Bombardier stainless steel props have a lot of cupping on the tip which theoretically adds to performance
Cupping is directly related a boat's hull design. Cupping adds performance with some hulls, and subtracts performance with others. It has no effect on pitch.<br /><br />
...the rule of thumb back then was to add one inch of pitch to calculations to account for the cupping.
That would be a bad "rule of thumb". You can't make a 15 pitch prop a 16 pitch prop just becuase it's cupped and perhaps has less slip.<br /><br />"Pitch" is defined as the forward movement of a propeller during one revolution with zero slip.<br /><br />If a cupped prop is providing less slip (not always the case), then you are merely getting closer to achieving a true 15" of forward movement. <br /><br />
That would make the prop a 16" and with around 5% slippage, the posted figures are close.
How about we assume the prop has 0% slippage (best possilble) and keep it the 15 pitch prop that it is. Guess what....it still can't make that speed. <br /><br />You are manipulating numbers to make them fit, rather than realizing that something is bogus. <br /><br />
Another thing is that a prop like that does not have a standard pitch from one end of the blade to its base. It is a compound curvature that varies over the length of each blade. So what is called a 15" pitch prop can be anything, for example, from a 20 pitch at the root, to a 10 pitch at the tip.
It doesn't matter. "Pitch" does not take into account "compound curvatures" or a certain angle from one end of the blade to its base. <br /><br />Again, pitch is only concerned with the forward movement of the propeller during one revolution with zero slip. The speed of the boat is based on how far the propeller moves through the water, not what angles are on the prop blades.<br /> <br />
Then an aluminum 15" prop has a different blade shape, less cupping, and thicker blades to make up for strength, and that prop will perform differently than the high tech stainless steel version.
Yes, different props will perform differently. What's your point? :confused: <br /><br />
Posted by Backfire - Tonight seahorse gets a couple of ATTA BOYS for the prop dissertation. Some years ago the theory was the earth was flat, still subscribed to by some today. I say the prop is the fluid torque converter, what say U?
I'd say things have seriously Backfired Backfire. :eek:
 

P.V.

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
452
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Boy, What a pathetic scroll this has turn'd into!!! The very first post on this subject was about if the guy should buy a Yamaha 115 4-stroke or an E-TEC. Pretty simple answer. There will not be an 115 hp E-TEC 'till next year! But... "you don't want to buy one cause the E-TECs are too new, un-proven, remants of the old OMC FICHTs, .........". Well, the answer is not to argue amonst ourselves, it's to wait, patiently (if you can) untill the 90 E-TECs DO get on the water! It should be very soon, in fact!! The boat mags will (should) have comparisons of various engines of the E-TEC vs. standard two strokes, four strokes, other DFI motors, etc... They (E-TECS) have been released to the dealers, perhaps everyone is still busy winterizing to rig one up or the consumers are waiting??? Who knows but why lose any bain cells fighting about theory or shoulda, coulda, woulda.....? My thoughts are this... How long after the Yamha, Honda or Suzukis came out before the consumers step'd up and bought them?? One, two years???? Nope! After all, they were unproven! Did consumers doubt that they would perform as promised?? Evidently not! Yet, I hear people say "Don't trust Bombardier's product, just yet!!" I don't know if I would be the very first in line to lay down 7 or 8 thousand for one, however, a consumer will, in the near future, be able to make an inform'd decision on if he should make that jump. Based on a number of information sourses. And not by what people "think" !!! Heck, if someone buys any motor just on what mesage boards say, he might as well flip a coin! This board and others have lots of info, most good and lots of s*#t!!! by many diferent "experts", a consumer would be best serv'd to read back though the historys and find out who speaks out of their b*#ts and who speaks with some degree of expertise !! BTW, I drove the E-TECS in Florida myself, I felt there was room for improvment at that time. They say they have. Are they gunna kick the four stroke boys in the arse? Don't know yet, maybe they will! Maybe they won't! All the changes are making this interesting, for sure! I won't be the first one in line for the new Project X motor either but I am willing to bet your paycheck, they are "un-real" and may just change things further. Time will tell!! Lighten up, guys!
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

...it's to wait...Time will tell!
Exactly. In the mean time I've ordered proven 4-strokes for my boats.<br /><br />My clients wouldn't appreciate being Guinea pigs for totally new technology from a manufacturer that hasn't made an outboard before.<br /><br />So who's going first? Loyal Evinrude consumers? <br />I don't see them lined up at the dealer yet?
 

jegervais

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
646
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

I have one question for you Forktail:<br /><br />You previously said you were a retired mechanical engineer. May I inquire in what field?<br /><br />Regards,<br />John
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Mostly military aircraft, with a little automotive. Hydrodynamics isn't my forte, but I've designed and built a few awesome boats. Why?<br /><br />I've requested the 0-6000 rpm engine torque specs on the 2.67 gear ratio E-Tech outboards from Bombardier. If they will give them to me, I think I can make a correlation for the need to have an extremely high torque multiplier and low RPM to the prop.<br /><br />Happy Thanksgiving to all. :)
 

Tracy Coleman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
215
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Just a little something to read while the turkey goes down. Have a good'un. My view is, good props<br />are an art, not a science, a lot of "voodo" involved to get the mojo working, don't ya know.<br />Backfire ;) <br />Getting them ratios right from the start.<br /> <br /><br />The Two-Stroke Lives (cleanly, too)<br />Evinrude's E-TEC engines have done the seemingly impossible: saving the air-cooled two-stroke from oblivion<br />By Christopher A. Sawyer, Executive Editor <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />About 10 years ago, Chrysler’s Joe Goulart was singing the praises of the two-stroke engine as an automotive powerplant. His dream, however, couldn’t pass muster with the EPA. As a result, the automotive two-stroke engine died. Environmental concerns dogged the recreational two-stroke, as well. After years of doing nothing, the EPA set strict pollution limits for recreational vehicles (personal water craft, snowmobiles, etc.), which called into question the two-stroke’s continued viability. Fortunately, no one told George Broughton, director of Engineering, Boats and Outboard Engines Div. for Bombardier Recreational Products (Sturtevant, WI). He and his team created the Evinrude E-TEC family of two-strokes; engines that are clean and darn-near worry free.<br /><br />Fuel Injection That Sings<br />“The trick was to make an engine that would idle at 500 rpm and make 1 hp, and run 6,000 rpm and make 250 hp while meeting the emission standards,” says Broughton. Part of the solution involved using a Lorentz coil. Better known as the voice coil that drives loudspeakers, a Lorentz coil is made up of a permanent magnet and coil winding, and produces a force proportional to the current applied to the coil. Which makes it perfect for devices requiring high acceleration, high frequency application, and a flat force vs. displacement output. Another big advantage is that it can push or pull, so it can be reset between injection events very quickly.<br /><br />“The strength and duration of the injection pulse determine fuel droplet size,” says Broughton, “which varies to meet the unique needs of an air-cooled two-stroke.” At low engine speeds, small droplets offer the greatest atomization, and the most homogenous mixture. This is sprayed over the spark plug, and ignited as a stratified charge. At high speed, larger droplets are used to cool the top of the piston. (Cooling also is helped by use of a NASA-developed alloy three times stronger than conventional alloys at temperature. Broughton’s team found it while searching the Internet.)<br /><br />A swirl-nozzle fuel injector with 0.046-in. tangential slots is another key to clean combustion. “It’s made through metal injection molding,” says Broughton, “and starts as a piece about three or four times bigger than the final product. Then it’s shrunk to size in an oven like a new pair of blue jeans in the dryer.” The fuel rail is pressurized to 30 psi, and the Lorentz coil amplifies this to 600 psi (1,000 psi is possible, but as yet unnecessary) under wide-open throttle conditions.<br /><br />No Battery, Plenty of Spark<br />The E-TEC’s electrical system is based around a magneto – like a Model T – for a simple reason: recreational vehicles are put into storage at the end of each season, then pulled out when the weather turns favorable. Batteries die in storage, so relying on one to drive the fuel injection system and engine controller only adds to customer frustration. “The magneto produces from 150 to 300 volts,” says Broughton, “but that is reduced to 55 volts to drive the oil and fuel pumps and the fuel injectors. It’s further reduced to 14.7 volts to charge the battery, if the boat has one.”<br /><br />Evinrude promises an E-TEC engine will start within one revolution, something most two-stroke owners will find hard to believe, especially for an engine that’s been in storage. The key is the sealed injection system. Though the fuel in the gas tank may oxidize over time, no air can enter the fuel system itself. The gas stays fresh. As the flywheel starts to turn, the magneto sends current to the engine controller, which determines where the piston is, when to inject the fuel and fire the spark plug – all inside of one revolution. At the end of three year’s use, and except for greasing the lower drive unit because of its constant immersion in water, Broughton insists the only item that may need service is the spark plug. “The E-TEC is designed to go three years without any dealer interaction,” he says.<br /><br />Oil and Catalysts<br />But what if the regulations get tighter, won’t two-strokes be at a disadvantage because of their propensity to burn oil? “Oil isn’t a big player,” says Broughton, “because the amount burned is about 1% of the total intake charge, and it never mixes with the gasoline.” (The average user of a 50-hp E-TEC will go through two quarts of oil per year.) Hydrocarbons are the predominant pollutant, a portion of which are scavenged and burned in the next combustion cycle. When emission standards tighten, Broughton will be ready with a simple reduction catalyst he terms, “1970’s technology.” Right now, the engine is clean enough to pass California’s 2008 standards.<br /><br />Broughton doesn’t claim E-TEC technology might have saved the automotive two-stroke, but he does suggest Detroit’s obsession with preventing the lubricating oil from being burned during combustion sent them down the wrong path. “Their concentration on retaining an oil sump, oil scraper rings, and relying on plain bearings instead of roller bearings,” he theorizes, “increased the amount of oil burned, which harmed emissions performance.” And it may be another reason why automotive two-stroke emission performance degraded over time. “The E-Tec actually gets cleaner as it progresses through the EPA test,” he says. “And we never have to worry about the potential for secondary pollution when changing the oil.” Maybe not, but try selling that to the EPA when discussing emission tradeoffs.<br /><br /> <br /> <br />Tighter emission standards were supposed to mean the end of two-stroke engines for recreational use. Apparently, Evinrude wasn’t listening. It uses a Lorentz coil to drive the fuel injection system, which allows it to produce a stratified mist at low speeds, and larger droplets to cool the piston at high rpms. A NASA-developed alloy that is three times stronger than current piston alloys at high temperatures eliminates a weak spot found in conventional two-stroke designs. Evinrude claims the new design will start in less than one revolution of the engine, and be across its full engine line by MY 2005. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />Automotive Design & Production, autofieldguide.com and all contents are properties of Gardner Publications, Inc.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

hello<br /> hahaha that was as good as the sunday funnies.<br /> I especially liked the part about the average user and the oil consumption at 1% of the total charge. that means if you use two quarts of oil in a season ya used 50 gallons of gas. either this motor can go to the moon on a 150 gallon tank or someone is seriously underestimating the product usage. I remember back in the late 60's when the japs could not imagine leaving a car out in the cold so they did not design them to be started with a block temp in the mid thirties. so they would not start. most had to use heat blankets or ether in the morning. the high pressure is not new. automotive 2 strokes have used it for over 25 years. its new to marine and the severe usage and customer neglect. 250 hours on a ten year old motor is neglected. anyway it will be interesting to see if mr. Broughton has a pair of E-Teks for ten years as he is making monthly payments as well as sending kids to school and supporting an aging parent. that is my gigger . will it outlast the payments? but the 2 quarts of oil a season was worth the reading<br /> I am still chuckling :) :) <br /> yall have a happy thanksgiving and eat some collards and sweet taters for me :) <br />hello<br /> hahaha that was as good as the sunday funnies.<br /> I especially liked the part about the average 2 quart oil usage.I guess that will kill off oil sales as well
 

rcupp

Cadet
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
17
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Should learn more rodbolt the oil is not mixed with the gas on E-tec motors
 
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