Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

hello<br /> yamaha supportes??? man they support me:) :) <br /> in my humble opinion the BEST outboard is a broke one. but I tend to agree with forktail and some others. I want to see how an E-tek does when the monthly payment plan is over . I still chuckle about the 2 quat a year oil usage. I know guys with 9.9 mixing 50 to 1 that use more than a gallon a year.<br /> anyway it will be nice to see some positive feed back about this company. the mid-late ninties were terrible for OMC products.<br /><br /> well good luck and keep posting
 

Forktail

Ensign
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Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

:rolleyes: Backfire, you're trying so hard to prove that the E-Tech is superior, that you've digressed to posting a link relating to carbon monoxide deaths in houseboats! :confused: <br /><br />That link was part of a Bombardier Power Point presentation used during a USCG workshop regarding CO related poisonings. In particular houseboat CO emission exposures and deaths. <br /><br />Bombardier was merely showing how their theory of combustion reduces CO emissions. Other companies, like Mercury Marine, did the same thing there. These types of workshops are a great opportunity for 2-stroke manufacturers to advertise and solicit their new clean burning technologies. <br /><br />The data is Bombardier's own interpretation and comparison, which shows no technical information or reference. Obviously all outboards meet the ICOMA standards. And it should be no surprise that Bombardier is going to show that they meet those standards better. Each manufacturer will try to do the same thing, and each will have their own data. Ironically, this workshop took place in Annapolis MD on March 24, 2003...prior to the E-Tech getting its 3-star CARB EPA approval. <br /><br />Although it's comforting to know that you'll be less likely to poison yourself with an E-Tech (according to Bombardier), it doesn't have anything to do with this discussion, especially in the areas of durability and reliability. No one here has questioned the ability of the E-Tech to be emission compliant.<br /><br />Backfire, in your relentless pursuit to find E-Tech superiority, you've posted misinformation about gear ratios, gear cases, comparison data, propping, and now this. Give it a rest. Try to relax and see how the E-tech does for real. I am.<br /><br />BTW, that data in your link was compiled and presented by OMC's Greg Binversie....the chief/project engineer of the FICHT. And we all know what happened to his FICHT. ;)
 

timothyl

Seaman
Joined
Aug 22, 2003
Messages
62
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

in my humble opinion the BEST outboard is a broke one
Mine must be darn near perfect then. If you fine folks would like to take up a collection for me, then I would be happy to match you 10 cents on the dollar to see how good E-techs really are. <br /><br />Seriously though, I do see the E-tech as having more potential than any other new motor on the market. But, I also realize that the only data I have read has been compiled by bombardier and that data is probably skewed.<br /><br />As for you individuals that refuse to try technology untill it has proven itself, YOU MAKE ME SICK!!! ;) . I mean, if you guys don't try new motors, then how do you expect me to be able to buy a decent USED E-tech in the near future? I just want a motor that is not the same age as I am and that runs! (I'm 37 by the way)<br /><br />I am enjoying reading these posts by the way.
 

SeaDawg

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Messages
418
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Fellas, do you think the dealers are going to support the E-tec engines? What incentive do they have to sell an engine that never breaks down and never needs servicing.<br /><br />My point being, if the E-tec engines really do take off and do what they say, I'm just curious how the dealers will react.
 

jegervais

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
646
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Sea Dawg,<br /><br />It's difficult to predict how anyone will react, but during the peak-season here, the majority of dealers seem to have a 3 to 4 week back up in their service schedules. I would think (guess) they would appreciate the opportunity to catch up on what they're behind in. :D <br /><br />John
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

3 years without service....<br /><br />So after you buy an E-Tech you have 3 years to make an appointment. And the dealer has 3-years to figure out how to repair it. :p
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Did car dealers go out of business when tune-ups went to 100,000 miles, anti-freeze to 5 years, and transmission fluid to lifetime?<br /><br />Don't get caught up in 3 years no service. Like your car's oil change interval, mine says 7500 miles unless you drive in traffic, drive high speeds, pull a trailer, etc., then they want 3000 mile changes.<br /><br />E-TEC service interval is 3 yr. or 300 hr., whichever is first. I haven't read the owners manual yet, but I'll bet in salt water there is a different schedule.
 

Tracy Coleman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
215
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Kinda like the "average" boater uses his boat about 50 hours a year. We have a lot of above average users on some of these forums, but there is just as many that may use it 2 or 3 times a year. All in all, the average is around 35 to 50 hours. So when a statistic is quoted for the average whatever-2 quarts of oil probably very close to the 35 hour mark, the individual can factor that approxamation based on his own experience. Not exactly like this engine burns X lbs. of fuel per hour or delivers X.XX mpg. Comparative hard data like the rods,pistons,crank and block bearings, are the same as its V-6 brothers putting out over 300 hp in mildly warmed up versions, speaks well for the potential heavy duty aspects of the engines in questions. A commercial strength grade lower unit for John Doe is certainly a plus. Lets get 'em on the water for the real test.<br />Backfire ;)
 

jegervais

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
646
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

The International Committee of Marine Industry Associations (ICOMIA) is basically a statistics gathering house for everything “marine” around the world – an international version of the NMMA if you will – a manufacturers association. Although they have various committees which meet up to 3 or 4 times per year, they appear to have no policy or legal enforcement powers (my opinion after spending quite a bit of time reviewing their web site). In the U.S., enforcement is generally left to the US Coast Guard and/or individual state agencies such as the DNR. ICOMIA, does have a “standards” link on their web site, it looks like ICOMIA maintains the library of international standards, such as all those “symbols” that appear on gauges and in owners manuals. But again, here in the states the ABYC (American Boat & Yacht Council) “sets” the standards for U.S. marine manufacturers.<br /><br />Based on ICOMIA provided statistics, the average recreational boater runs their outboard motor about 35 to 50 hours (depending which document you read) per year – this is what Backfire has alluded to. They also state the average recreational boater runs their engine as follows:<br /><br />40% @ idle rpm range <br />25% @ 2000 rpm range <br />15% @ 3000 rpm range <br />14% @ 4000 rpm range and <br />6% @ 5000 rpm range<br /><br />The 3 years/300 hours (which ever comes first) no maintenance claim is based on these statistics. <br /><br />BTW, just uncrated an E-TEC 90 horse yesterday for display. The owners manual, under the maintenance section says:<br /><br />
“Routine inspection and maintenance is necessary for all mechanized products. Periodic maintenance contributes to the product’s life span. The following chart provides guidelines for outboard inspection and maintenance to be performed by an authorized Dealer.<br /><br />IMPORTANT: Outboards used for rental operations, commercial applications, or other high hour use applications require more frequent inspections and maintenance. Inspection and maintenance should be adjusted according to operating conditions and use; and environmental conditions.”
Additionally, there is a maintenance chart, and there are a couple of foot-noted items like grease fittings. The foot-note says:
“ Annually in salt water applications”.
Should the operator pull the prop off once in a while and inspect for fishing line wrapped around the prop shaft? Hell yes, that’s what the first statement is telling us!<br /><br />But, these advantages still aren’t lost on the charter or guide service that may choose to use them (obviously you’ve excluded yourself here Forky). The vast majority of engines are on a 100 hour maintenance schedule. (I've seen a million owners manuals and ton's of service manuals, if you don't believe this statement, check your local library or visit your local dealer - the info is available and free for the viewing.) Foot-noted items listed for those engines typically say “Every 30 days for salt water use” or “Lubricate more frequently for salt water use”. So for someone who may have the opportunity to run 300 hours a season, rather than having three scheduled/ required services (dealer or DIY), they’re down to one annual service. A reasonable person, I would think, can still see the benefits.<br /><br />Also based on these ICOMIA statistics is the oil use claim. One tank of oil (which is 2 quarts for 40/50/60 & 3 quarts for 75/90) will last a season. Well that would be approximately 50 hours when programmed for E-TEC oil, or approximately 35 hours with the TCW-3 programming. But guess what? The not so average recreational boater who runs slower will use less, or the one who runs WOT all the time will use more. Common sense rules apply boys & girls – in other words, read thru the marketing pitch.<br /><br />Digest this factual information which I found on the EPA and CARB web sites regarding emissions certification: To attain the 3-star rating, an engine cannot produce more than 16 grams per kilowatt-hour (gr/kw-hr) of total Oxides of Nitrogen (Nox) + total Hydrocarbons (HC). <br /><br />The E-TEC 40/50 certified @ 13.44 gr/kw-hr and E-TEC 75/90 certified @ 12.32 gr/kw-hr. These figures exceed (are cleaner than) the 3-star rating. What difference does it make when the engine was certified? It appears (to me anyway) that they achieved their stated goal. Most 4-strokes in the same hp range (40 thru 90) fall into the 11.4 to 15.4 gr/kw-hr. Some are a little cleaner, some not, but keep in mind these emissions measurements are the sum of total Oxides of Nitrogen (Nox) + total Hydrocarbons (HC). HC is unburned fuel (or fuel/oil in the case of a DI 2-stroke) and Nox is a by-product of combustion. <br /><br />What is not represented here is Carbon Monoxide (CO), you know, the one gas that can put you to sleep – permanently. While most 4-strokes emit about 100 to 246 gr/kw-hr of CO, Honda has one of the cleanest, with the BF40 at 82 and also some of the worst (BF8 & 9.9) with 513 & 336 respectively, they also hold the honor for what appears to be the worst CO emitter, the BF2 @ 639! Yamaha’s 4-strokes range from 102 to 259, however, their worst is also a little one, the 2.5 hp @ 466. By and large, the biggest CO emitters were the 4-stroke “kicker” outboards 15hp & smaller (all brands).<br /><br />In comparison, The Evinrude DI’s (Ficht) emit from 85 to 125, Merc’s OptiMax 79 to 166 and only four Yamaha’s HPDI’s were listed (150, 200, 225 & 300). They emitted from 46 to 105, about half the CO of their 4-stroke counterparts. However (comma, add pause for effect) the Evinrude E-TEC’s CO emissions range from 66.49 to 69.8. IMHO, this is quite a bit less then the average 4-stroker.<br /><br />The “proof” is on two different government agencies official web sites.<br /><br />Now regarding gearing, propping and boat performance: While many of you understand (some all too well) the theory and speed calculations, it's also obvious to those of us who rig, set-up and repair boats & motors on a daily basis that the finer points of optimal set-up are lost on those of a stuborn mind set. Cuz’ when you start tweaking a set up and creating less hydro-dynamic drag in the water, it blows the theoretical/ mathematical formulas right out of the water. <br /><br />These theories do not take into account diameter (and therefore blade surface area), blade thickness (the difference between aluminum, and stainless = resistance or drag) and those neat little features like extra cupping in certain locations (thrust). I'm highly speculative if the formula even considers that todays propellers do not have a constant pitch. But, I won't go there. Pitch is actually progressive and changes over the length of the blades - the pitch stamp on a prop is merely an average of the pitch measured along several point on the blade. IF someone wants to play the caped crusader and single handedly clear up misinformation, then at least "get it right".<br /><br /> Oh, BTW, if someone out there does have an E-TEC, please chime in & share your thoughts - it's too stinkin' cold in this neck of the woods for me to want to go out & run this one now.<br /><br />-John
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Cuz’ when you start tweaking a set up and creating less hydro-dynamic drag in the water, it blows the theoretical/ mathematical formulas right out of the water.
John, theoretical and mathematical formulas are best case scenarios, based on zero slip and zero drag. The results, like speed, etc., only get worse in real world applications. This is exactly why the E-Tech data doesn't jive...because it can't even be achieved under perfect theoretical conditions! <br /><br />
These theories do not take into account diameter (and therefore blade surface area), blade thickness (the difference between aluminum, and stainless = resistance or drag) and those neat little features like extra cupping in certain locations (thrust).
None of those things effect pitch. <br /><br />John, you must have missed my posts back a ways. Either that or I'm imagining that I'm repeating myself over and over. <br /><br />Think of your prop as a screw. Lets say the screw is threaded so it moves ahead 1" for every 15 turns (1/15 pitch). <br /><br />It doesn't matter what diameter the screw is, it still moves 1" in 15 turns. The larger diameter the screw, the more resistance when screwing it in. But the pitch is still 1" for every 15 turns.<br /><br />Blade surface area can be related to the depth of the grooves or threads on the screw. Deeper grooves grab better and hold better. But it still takes 15 turns to go 1".<br /><br />Same with blade thickness. The screw's threads may be thick. But it doesn't matter because it still takes 15 turns to go 1". Thicker screw threads just mean the screw is harder to turn.<br /><br />Cupping really can't be related to screws. But if the screw threads were cupped a little on the end of each thread it wouldn't matter. The screw would still only go 1" in 15 turns.<br /><br />Have you got it yet? :confused: <br /><br />One last time...pitch tells you how far the prop advances forward in one revolution, with zero slip. The angle of the prop blades (pitch angle) is another topic which has very little to do with pitch.<br /><br />
I'm highly speculative if the formula even considers that todays propellers do not have a constant pitch.
It doesn't matter what type of pitch the propeller has. Pitch is pitch. If the prop has a constant pitch causing it to move 15" per revolution it is a 15 pitch prop. If the prop has a compound pitch causing it to move 15" per revolution it is a 15 pitch prop too. <br /><br />
Pitch is actually progressive and changes over the length of the blades
NO! That is pitch angle! Pitch angle can't be confused with pitch, as they aren't one in the same! Pitch angle is in degrees. "Pitch" (the thing stamped on your prop) is in inches.<br /><br />
...the pitch stamp on a prop is merely an average of the pitch measured along several point on the blade.
NO! The pitch stamp on the prop indicates how many inches of forward travel the prop would have per revolution, with zero slip.<br /><br />The average of the pitch measured along several points of the blade has to do with pitch angle....again, something totally different. <br /><br />
IF someone wants to play the caped crusader and single handedly clear up misinformation, then at least "get it right".
Are you serious? :confused: :rolleyes: <br /><br />I could care less about E-Tech emissions. Getting out and back reliably is way more important. Besides, I have no emission restrictions here, not even for my car. But I'll concede that the E-Tech looks like it's intended for the weekend warrior, not the serious boater or fisherman.
 

P.V.

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
452
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

The only good thing about this post is that it's slowly going down AND away! Then some yaHoo adds another comment! D#*M, was that me?? OKAY, okay.... here's a new one.Answer this,... Can someone tell me what year is my motor ???
 

jegervais

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
646
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Gee PV, why do you keep coming back?<br /><br />That's it Forktail - I quit. You're either untrainable or very closed minded. <br /><br />I'm not saying a "tweaked" rig is going to go blasting by an "untweaked" rig at several mph. Just that it is possible to put the top-end speed "over the edge". It makes those numbers possible - I've done it several times, that's proof enough for me.
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Gee, why stop now? we are on a roll to a record number of posts. Let's see, some things we can add to this:<br /><br />what oil is best for my motor?<br />what sparkplug brand should I use?<br />motor doesn't run right, what's wrong?<br />help me name my boat.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

hello<br /> yep P.V. its a fairly middleaged one:).<br /> well I did a 400 hour service on a pair of 2002 yam 225's yesterday. they have 83 hours of runtime above 5000 rpm and a whopping 15 hours above 6000 rpm. I have noted the workorder that the customer really needs to stay off the rev limiter :) . but the engines show no adverse affects. this is the reliability I desire. these engines are mounted on a 30ft grady marlin tournament. so its like pushing a sled. I just wonder how many trucks could pull 10,000 pounds up hill at 6000 rpm for 15 hours?<br /> good luck and keep posting
 

jegervais

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
646
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

seahorse,<br /><br />Do you want "name brand" or cheapest?<br />The "right one" or the cheapest?<br />Probably the loose nut behind the steering wheel.<br />S.S. Minnow.<br /><br />Rodbolt,<br /><br />Just out of curiousity, what was the approximate service cost?
 

BillP

Captain
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

JohnfromIll,<br />Excellent post on data...thanks.<br />Bill
 

Hawaiian

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
111
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

The guy at a local prop shop here explained to me that cupping or double cupping does in effect create more pitch. He said that the prop's pitch is sometimes measured before the cupping and the cupping then adds to the pitch. Can this be accurate? <br />By using a prop slip calculator, my 16 pitch double cupped prop has a negative 3% slip. My 15 pitch prop with slight cupping has a 6% slip. This leads me to believe that the 16 pitch double cupped prop is actually more like a 17 pitch prop. It is either stamped wrong (doubtful) or the double cupping adds more pitch.
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

That's it Forktail - I quit. You're either untrainable or very closed minded.
If you're trying to train me to believe that a 15 pitch prop can advance more than 15" per revolution, it ain't going to happen. Cause its wrong.<br /><br />If you're trying to train me to believe that blade area, blade thickness, etc. effect pitch, it ain't going to happen. Cause its wrong.<br /><br />If you're trying to train me to believe that a compound 15 pitch prop has a different pitch than a constant pitch prop, it ain't going to happen. Cause its wrong.<br /><br />If you're trying to train me to believe that pitch is the average of the angle along the blade, it ain't going to happen. Cause its wrong.<br /><br />If you're trying to train me that the pitch stamped on the prop expresses the angle of the blades, it ain't going to happen. Cause its wrong.<br /><br />And if you think you've "got it right", you're wrong.<br /><br />John, I'm only "untrainable" under your school of thought...which is drastically lacking knowledge and correctness. <br /><br />
I'm not saying a "tweaked" rig is going to go blasting by an "untweaked" rig at several mph. Just that it is possible to put the top-end speed "over the edge". It makes those numbers possible - I've done it several times, that's proof enough for me.
I don't care how "tweaked" you make an outboard and boat run. A 15 pitch prop will never advance more than 15" per revolution unless its not a 15 pitch prop! It appears the E-Tech data is bogus. I've showed how, and you haven't proved me wrong. I guess if I were an E-Tech fan, I'd be frustrated too.<br /><br />Don't kid yourselves guys - you keep posting because you love it. :D
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Yes, Perry. That is correct.<br /><br />If you modify an original prop by adding cup, it will change the original pitch. The original pitch includes whatever cupping originally came with the prop. It's in there. By adding additional cupping you have increased the distance the prop advances through the water each revolution. Additional cupping benefits some outboard/hull combinations, but not all.<br /><br />6%-10% slip is very common. So that sounds right. The 3% negative slip would indicate a modified prop, or a prop that has been modified to a pitch greater than what is stamped on it. Theoretically negative slip can't exist because you can't get better traction than perfect traction.<br /><br />I assume the data comparison on the E-Tech was done with factory propping. So it appears that the E-Tech magically went faster than it was capible of doing, even under perfect zero slip conditions. And that reinforces my point that the data is bogus, or Bombardier modified something.
 
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