Fails to choke at start

[Boomyal]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Now, on the ESA. I've done a great deal of reading on the Mercruiser 888 and haven't seen a reference to an ESA switch. 1974 Mercruiser, Ford 302. Does it have one?

Nope!

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Gene will she fire on a shot of eyther, if so maybe you should double check that fuel pump, if not then back to the primary ignition circuit, you really need to test compression to verify cam events are happening and valves are sealing, you can buy a basic compression tester at advance auto parts for around 20.00.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Fails to choke at start

ESA (electronic shift assist), a momentary grounding of the ignition when shifting thru the gears, I thought all Mercruisers had one?,,, I had a one time no start issue on my 79' SeaRay 260 Mercruiser Type 1 Drive due to a sticking one.

 

[gene8084]

Re: Fails to choke at start

ESA (electronic shift assist), a momentary grounding of the ignition when shifting thru the gears, I thought all Mercruisers had one?,,, I had a one time no start issue on my 79' SeaRay 260 Mercruiser Type 1 Drive due to a sticking one.

Located it on the wiring diagram = Shift Interrupter Switch.

 

[gene8084]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Gene will she fire on a shot of eyther, if so maybe you should double check that fuel pump, if not then back to the primary ignition circuit, you really need to test compression to verify cam events are happening and valves are sealing, you can buy a basic compression tester at advance auto parts for around 20.00.

New fuel pump...not that that means it works.

What's left on the ignition? Points, plugs, condenser, coil, cap, rotor, rebuilt starter and altenator?

I hear ya on the compression test. I picked up a kit yesterday, but it was more like $40.

 

[gene8084]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Completed some tests

Gene ..., if not then back to the primary ignition circuit, ....

I ran a 12 gage wire from the coil (+) to the battery (+). Started briefly and quit.
Note: I went back to points.

...you really need to test compression to verify cam events are happening and valves are sealing, you can buy a basic compression tester at advance auto parts for around 20.00.

Results of Compression Test
Note: obviously I had to test cold. This yields lower compression right?

#1 - 120 psi, #2 - 090, #3 - 124, #4 -140
#5 - 124 psi, #6 - 120, #7 - 120, #8 - 120

TDC Check
I didn't have a socket that fits on the crankshaft pulley bolt so I had to turn it over with the ignition, but

• #1 to TDC (or pretty darn close).
• Rotor is dead on #1 distributor wire.
• Timing mark is on 15 degrees

Looking at crankshaft pulley, rotates clockwise, 15 degrees clockwise from zero.

Based on the direction is that 15 degreed BTDC?
Mercruiser tune up specs list this engine at 10 degrees BTDC.

Thoughts? Comments?

Note: I know that #2 compression reading is a bit troubling and something I'll have to address at some point, but it should be my problem.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Located it on the wiring diagram = Shift Interrupter Switch.

Yes, that's what I meant, if the engine starts atall in neutral, thats not the problem then. When you went back to points, did you put the original resistor wire back on? or you'll burn out your points with full 12 volts going to them in a short period of time. Ok, now listen close, here's how the ignition works with points: There is one wire going to your coil from your starter a full 12 volts for starting only, it is activated by the key only in the start position. Then there is one wire going to your coil with less then 12 volts that is the resistor wire for running only, activated by the key in the run position. Thus with both wires, you get a full 12volts for starting, and a reduced voltage for running (so your points don't burn). Both of these wires should be coming off the harness and go on the small terminal of the coil thats opposite the terminal that goes directly to the distributor (by the way, your tach wire goes on the distributor terminal also). I'm not sure what the colors will be, or exactly where the wires are, but thats how it usually works. Another item to check, is if that motor is negative ground, or positive ground?, I do know the older Ford cars used to all be Positive ground.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Completed some tests
I ran a 12 gage wire from the coil (+) to the battery (+). Started briefly and quit.
Note: I went back to points.

If there's a pos. & neg. marking on your coil, and the pos. is going into the coil, while the neg. is going into the Dist. (ground) I'd guess it answers my question, it is a Neg. ground system (unless someone put the wrong coil on?) Anyway, There is no way it should not continue to run with a wire off the battery, directly to the coil??? Unless like I said, it's a fuel delivery problem? check your whole fuel delivery system! What ever happened to your idea of a seperate gas can, Shoot, you can use any 5 gal can with a fuel supply hose stuck in it, and room for it to vent?

 

[gene8084]

Re: Fails to choke at start

..., did you put the original resistor wire back on? ...

Not yet, MikDee, but I didn't intend to run more than enough to prove out the Points vs. Ignitor. At this point I'll reterminate the resister wire and worry about the Ignitor when I've had a nice day or two on the lake next spring

Thanks for the explanation on the two wire setup. I had actually figured out how that works by reading about he Ignitor...but every confirmation I get is helpful.

I need to try the gas tank routine next.

I decided to step through a70eliminators recommendation to do the compression test and confirm TDC in relation to points and timimg marks. (posted those today). Anxious to see opinions on the TDC results.

Tomorrow I'm off from work...hoping for no rain and will get back to the fuel troubleshooting (right after I do the resistance wire).

Thanks for your help.

 

[gene8084]

Re: Fails to choke at start

...Unless like I said, it's a fuel delivery problem? check your whole fuel delivery system! What ever happened to your idea of a seperate gas can, Shoot, you can use any 5 gal can with a fuel supply hose stuck in it, and room for it to vent?

hmm ok, I was thinking I needed a fuel supply hose I could prime.

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Completed some tests



I ran a 12 gage wire from the coil (+) to the battery (+). Started briefly and quit.
Note: I went back to points.



Results of Compression Test
Note: obviously I had to test cold. This yields lower compression right?

#1 - 120 psi, #2 - 090, #3 - 124, #4 -140
#5 - 124 psi, #6 - 120, #7 - 120, #8 - 120

TDC Check
I didn't have a socket that fits on the crankshaft pulley bolt so I had to turn it over with the ignition, but

• #1 to TDC (or pretty darn close).
• Rotor is dead on #1 distributor wire.
• Timing mark is on 15 degrees

Looking at crankshaft pulley, rotates clockwise, 15 degrees clockwise from zero.

Based on the direction is that 15 degreed BTDC?
Mercruiser tune up specs list this engine at 10 degrees BTDC.

Thoughts? Comments?

Note: I know that #2 compression reading is a bit troubling and something I'll have to address at some point, but it should be my problem.[/QUOTE

Compression pressures are decent, even with the one being a little low shouldn't cause the motor to not run and at running temp you'll get more accurate readings.
The timing marks that come up while rotating crank clockwise from TDC are ATC. But even at 15* ATC the rotor should still be pretty close to #1 pin just slightly beyond it. The distributer could be 180* out meaning the pistion is up TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke, who knows what the PO may have done to it, and I have heard of engines running (crappy but running) with the distributor 180* backwards.

 

[gene8084]

Re: Fails to choke at start

The distributer could be 180* out meaning the pistion is up TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke, who knows what the PO may have done to it, and I have heard of engines running (crappy but running) with the distributor 180* backwards.

Interesting observation without seeing the distributor.

I was grumbling to myself when I installed the Ignitor that the wires were coming out on the front-end of the engine and needed to be bent around almost 90 degrees to avoid the cooling hoses. I didn't give it another thought until you mentioned it.

How could I confirm whether it's 180 degrees? I know I read somewhere that #1 should have been on the backside of the distributor. It wasn't a change I would make lightly.

Yeah, here it is. My number #1 is 180 to these standard wiring diagrams.
http://public.fotki.com/DLEE61/reference_pics/firing_orders/fordwiring.html

Should I change it? and if so is that done by lifting it up to disengage, rotating and fitting back in 180 degress?

Gene

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Fails to choke at start

exactly, sounds like it's out 180* for sure and someone just simply changed the wire arrangement to get it to run, and that should be ok, but with the problems you have I would just pull the distribtor out completely and start over. Verifying TDC compression stroke is easy just look at the valves for #1 with piston up, they should both be closed intake and exhaust. with the valve covers on you can't see the valves so you'll just have to put your finger over the #1 spark plug hole while an assistant bumps over the motor, when the piston comes up it should just about blow your finger off the hole on the compression stroke of course, on the exhaust stroke the piston comes up with the exhaust valve open blowing out the exhaust therfore no compression will build up in the cylinder. Ideally your #1 wire should be about 1:00 position at the cap. just like the photos. You may have to give a little pry up to get the distributor out, or it may come out easy, either way it must come out to it right. When removing it take notice to how the rotor will slightly turn because of the curvature of the gear, you must compensate for that movement when setting it back in alighning it to the new #1 position.

 

[Don S]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Here is how the firing order should be for a 74 model 888.
Not sure if you have your cylinders numbered properly, but a Ford is different from a Chevy.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Fails to choke at start

The relative position of number one on the distributor is immaterial. I could be in any one of the eight positions. What matters is that wherever you dropped the distributor in, that the motor is on top dead center for number one cylinder and that the plug wires attach to the cap in the proper order.

 

[gene8084]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Here is how the firing order should be for a 74 model 888.
Not sure if you have your cylinders numbered properly, but a Ford is different from a Chevy.

That's great. Thanks. The cylinders are number exactly as you show, but as we've determined today with a70eliminators help, the distributor is 180 from what you have shown here.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Fails to choke at start

The relative position of number one on the distributor is immaterial. I could be in any one of the eight positions. What matters is that wherever you dropped the distributor in, that the motor is on top dead center for number one cylinder and that the plug wires attach to the cap in the proper order.

I agree completely!, but if the engine was running good before why mess with the distributor, and take on a whole new can of worms? I think you should finish checking items that you have started before taking on anything new. Best bet is just put a timing light on it while cranking, then if need be just loosen your distributor a bit, and move it as needed to match up your timing marks, then tighten it up, and move on to previous issues.

 

[CharlieB]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Exactly when was this fuel pump changed?

Does it have a 'vent' hose?

Where does it plug in?

Unplug it and retest.

(I've made this mistake, fortunately NO witnesses)

 

[gene8084]

Re: Fails to choke at start

Exactly when was this fuel pump changed? I only had the boat a couple months, but the best way to answer this is the boat ran since installing the fuel pump.

Does it have a 'vent' hose?
Where does it plug in?

No vent hose.
It does not plug in, it's not electric. It's driven by the cam shaft rotation with a pump rocker arm.

Fuel is getting to the carburetor bowl...and it appears that's where the problem was. (see next post)

 

[gene8084]

Re: Fails to choke at start

I agree completely!, but if the engine was running good before why mess with the distributor, and take on a whole new can of worms? I think you should finish checking items that you have started before taking on anything new. Best bet is just put a timing light on it while cranking, then if need be just loosen your distributor a bit, and move it as needed to match up your timing marks, then tighten it up, and move on to previous issues.

Thanks, good advice and this is how I started today. I had plenty of things to do and try before reversing the distributor (which I ended up doing).

Let me start by saying it's running again.

What did I do today;
1. re-terminated the resistance wire
2. made up a remote starter switch (working alone again)
3. confirmed the timing (BTDC 10+, as prescribed in the specs)
4. emptied the in-line fuel bowl and fuel water separator into a clear container (a bit orange, some minor sediment, and a bit of water or something settled out)
5. blew out the fuel line to the tank. (didn't seem plugged at all, easily blowing bubbles)
6. plugged the fuel line and grabbed a fresh 2 gallon fuel can and used a small hand pump to prime the line, in-line bowl, and fuel water separator. ( this exposed a small leak on the inbound side of the fuel pump (tightened this up).
7. Started as before, maybe even ran a few seconds longer, but still quit (multiple attempts.)
8. Moved on to rotate the distributor 180 degrees. It took a while but I reestablished the timing. Surprisingly the rotor still doesn't point where I expected at TDC. (looking at the engine from the front it moved from 8 p.m. to 4.p.m.)
9. Started as before (like in step 7), again, maybe a little better, but no idle.
10. Stumped and out of ideas I returned to everything you all said (Ignition and Fuel)

a. Ignition seems fine (everything checked out)
b. Fresh fuel, alternate source
c. Timing set to specs.
d. Compression ok.
e. Carburetor (has to be)​

I went back to the adjustment instructions (dry & wet). I haven't done the wet adjustments because it wasn't running. So, I thought how about doing the wet adjustments without it running.

They talk about emptying the carburetor bowl, running the engine, removing the sight screw and ensuring the fuel level remains just below the thread for the sight screw while running. I checked it after attempting to start and gas dribbled out enough to wet the rag I held under the bowl. So, I adjust the flow level an 1/8 of in inch.

It started, I was able to advance the throttle and keep it running, back to idle. Up to temp, shut it off, started again at an idle.

I seems it was flooding.

It ran a bit rough at 2200 rpm, vibration - pretty noticeable, and some vibration at an idle of 900-1000 rpm. This is new, didn't vibrate a couple months ago during it's brief running.

I loosened the distributor hold down bolt and it immediately sounded better. I turned it left and right until it ran smoothly, but every time I tried to tighten the bolt down it it ran rough/vibrated again.

I was out of time I had to quit for the day.

Tremendous progress. Thank all of you for all your patience and experience.

What's left?
1. I have to resolve the vibration problem. (Timing, loose timing chain, ...?)
2. Empty the main fuel tank. It can't be good. Maybe it would run ok on it, but I'm really not happy with the color or the fuel after comparing to the fresh 2 gallon tank.

But it's running again (BIG SMILE)!!!