Ford 302 starter question

[TacomaTom]

I am gonna replace my starter and i went to the auto parts store to have my old one tested which it passed, but, they dont load test it?? Anyway i compared it to a starter from like a 79 Mustang and it looked the exact same, i mean exact!
Now my question is what is the difference between a car starter and a marine starter? What am i looking for in a marine starter?

 

[bomar76]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Marine starters are explosion proof, Mustangs are not.

You MUST use an explosion proof marine starter in a boat.

Let me guess...the auto parts store hooked it up to cables and it spun like hell...right?

That is not a starter test.

 

[Howard Sterndrive]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

i compared it to a starter from like a 79 Mustang and it looked the exact same, i mean exact!

on the outside

 

[Tig]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

I'm told that the marine starter is built to withstand a humid environment. That being said one could argue that a starter on a car gets a lot wetter on a rainy day.
I've rebuilt many car starters (including one for a 302 way back) and many many other DC motors but not a 302 boat starter. I'm trying to imagine what would be done different. Going on memory here but, brass bushings, carbon brushes and a copper armature. I'm not really sure what would be done significantly different there. It does come to mind that a car starter is usually quite close to the exhaust and that heat may help dry it out during normal use.
Take your old one apart and look to see if it is carefully sealed.

Edit: I see Bomar posted while I was composing my response. Excellent answer Bomar!

 

[bomar76]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

I'm told that the marine starter is built to withstand a humid environment. That being said one could argue that a starter on a car gets a lot wetter on a rainy day.
I've rebuilt many car starters (including one for a 302 way back) and many many other DC motors but not a 302 boat starter. I'm trying to imagine what would be done different. Going on memory here but, brass bushings, carbon brushes and a copper armature. I'm not really sure what would be done significantly different there. It does come to mind that a car starter is usually quite close to the exhaust and that heat may help dry it out during normal use.
Take your old one apart and look to see if it is carefully sealed.

You are totally wrong.

 

[TacomaTom]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Explosion proof how? And why do you need it to be? My boats engine compartment is no more "Sealed" than a cars, Certainly not sealed anywhere near the starter. There is a box over the engine front 3/4's but at the rear it is open air basicly.

 

[bomar76]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Do whatever you want, but gas fumes are heavier than air and settle in low spots (like where starter is) and one spark from a non spark protected (explosion proof) starter or alternator will blow the boat out of the water.
Marine alternators and starters are screen protected from spark hazzards and rated as such.

BTW, big news...fuel pumps and carbs also have to be marine.

 

[cr2k]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Check all your electrical connections from the battery to the solenoid to the starter AND all the ground connections. FORDs require good connections.

Yes it is basically an auto starter but spark sealed internally. They cost more due to the liability of the MFG making sure they pass Marine spec J1171.

A car doesn't have a engine compartment that is confined (they are open to the bottom and have a open flow form the radiator area).

You should also be running your blower for 5 min prior to starting to eliminate fuel vapors.

 

[mkast]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

You MUST use an explosion proof marine starter in a boat.

United States Coast Guard Regulations:

? 183.410 Ignition protection.

(a) Each electrical component must not ignite a propane gas and air mixture that is 4.25 to 5.25 percent propane gas by volume surrounding the electrical component when it is operated at each of its manufacturer rated voltages and current loadings, unless it is isolated from gasoline fuel sources, such as engines, and valves, connections, or other fittings in vent lines, fill lines, distribution lines or on fuel tanks, in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section.

(b) An electrical component is isolated from a gasoline fuel source if:

(1) A bulkhead that meets the requirements of paragraph (c) of this section is between the electrical component and the gasoline fuel source;

(2) The electrical component is:

(i) Lower than the gasoline fuel source and a means is provided to prevent fuel and fuel vapors that may leak from the gasoline fuel source from becoming exposed to the electrical component; or

(ii) Higher than the gasoline fuel source and a deck or other enclosure is between it and the gasoline fuel source; or

(3) The space between the electrical component and the gasoline fuel source is at least two feet and the space is open to the atmosphere.

(c) Each bulkhead required by paragraph (b)(1) of this section must:

(1) Separate the electrical component from the gasoline fuel source and extend both vertically and horizontally the distance of the open space between the fuel source and the ignition source;

(2) Resist a water level that is 12 inches high or one-third of the maximum height of the bulkhead, whichever is less, without seepage of more than one-quarter fluid ounce of fresh water per hour; and

(3) Have no opening located higher than 12 inches or one-third the maximum height of the bulkhead, whichever is less, unless the opening is used for the passage of conductors, piping, ventilation ducts, mechanical equipment, and similar items, or doors, hatches, and access panels, and the maximum annular space around each item or door, hatch or access panel must not be more than one-quarter inch.




I read this twice, didn't see the term "explosion proof " anywhere.
If a set of brushes are in contact with a spinning commutator, (starter, alternator or generator) and this appliance is operating correctly, arcing will occur, that is a fact.

The USCG regulations used to use terms like "shielded", which means a spark should hit a piece of tin to dissipate the spark, not eliminate it.

One guy insisted that electrical appliances had to be "air tight", that is impossible.
Marine appliances are shielded to minimize arcing, the arcing can't be stopped in normal operation.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Marine appliances are shielded to minimize arcing, the arcing can't be stopped in normal operation.

Ayuh,... Which equates to Explosion Proof...

Sparks just can't jump through a grounded Screen,... Which is how Alternators are Protected...
They also Can't jump around Corners,... Which is how some distributers are protected(a brass elbow vent, or with screens)
And,...
Starters are protected with steel(or SSteel) plates...
Which is the difference between automotive starters,+ Marine starters...
Marine starters have an additional plate between the Motor,+ it's bendix drive...

 

[mkast]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Ayuh,... Which equates to Explosion Proof...

Your interpretation, not mine. I read the article twice, didn't see explosion proof, an if I didn't see it, it doesn't exist, unless you are allowed to ad lib.

The only way to make the appliance "explosion proof " is to eliminate any sparks, in normal operation, that is impossible.
Rather than trying to achieve the impossible, the USCG settles for "minimizing" the chances.

This seems to be the same argument as the "Sealed" appliance as opposed to the "Shielded" appliance, it's not the same thing.

I sure someone will add, "You know what I mean!"

 

[bomar76]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Fine.
Put a Pinto starter in the boat.
Throw a Pinto carb on it too while you are at it.

 

[chriscraft31]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

You are funny bomar.... but also exactly correct (coice of word were wrong). Marine starters and alternators are "sheilded" (or explosion proof if you will) marine electric fuel pumps as well. The difference in carburators is that there is a hose that runs back to the fuel system if the engine should flood, rather than just dumping the extra fuel down the intake like an automobile. This is all in an effort to keep a boat from blowing up. But if they must save money, let them put a carquest starter in. Might as well put a propane tank in the engine compartment with it and crack the valve on it.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

The difference in carburators is that there is a hose that runs back to the fuel system if the engine should flood, rather than just dumping the extra fuel down the intake like an automobile.

Ayuh,... Not to argue ChrisCraft, but to clear the point,... You've got that alittle Backwards...

Automotive fuelpumps are vented to the atmosphere,+ when ruptured, dump the gas onto the ground...
If mounted on a boat motor, that equates to dumpin' Gas into the Bilge,... Boom...

Marine fuelpumps are vented through a fitting so it can be directed directly into the throat of the carb, causing a Rich condition, notifying you there's a Problem...
And, No gas is spilt into the bilge...

Gasoline, being Heavier than air, sinks into the bilge, rather than Blown away like a car...
That's Why it's so important that We follow these things...

 

[bomar76]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Marine rated carbs have vent tubes that direct fuel back into carb.
Additionally, there is no High Idle position on a marine carb.

 

[Bt Doctur]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Marine rated mechanical fuel pumps (not carbs) have vent tubes that direct fuel back into carb.
Additionally, there is no High Idle position on a marine carb.

Bomar, I think this is what you meant

 

[bomar76]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Bomar, I think this is what you meant

No, it is not.

Marine carbs have the vents for the fuel bowls directed back into the carb so if the float sticks or whatever excess fuel is directed down the carb throat.

I never mentioned marine fuel pumps.

 

[bomar76]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

There are other mods too that I didn't mention.

Here is a cu and paste from CP Performance's website that talks about the differences:

"Marine carburetors have certain modifications that make them uniquely adaptable and legal for marine usage. "Legal" meaning that it has the ability to pass the U.S. Coast Guard test for marine carburetors. Folks, I'm not talking about Paris Island here, either. The main qualification that a marine carburetor must meet (as set down by the U.S. Coast Guard) is that if the carburetor should "flood" only .5cc of fuel is allowed to escape in a period of 30 seconds. There's also a "backfire" test which confirms the ability of carburetors/flame arrestor combination to contain the backfire. For this reason a gasket is not used between the carburetor air horn flange and the flame arrestor. It's possible that this gasket could become saturated with fuel (if the carburetor should flood) and become a potential fire source as a result.

The primary areas of a carburetor that require some sort of modification to meet these requirements include the fuel bowl vent tubes and throttle shafts. The vent tubes of a marine carburetor are bent inwards so that the tube looks like an inverted "J". These tubes oftentimes are referred to as "J" tubes, as a result. The reason for bending the tubes inward is that if flooding should occur, the fuel that would normally come out of the fuel bowl vent tube is rerouted back into the carburetor.

Throttle shafts also get special machining attention. Shafts are "grooved" and "slabbed" to prevent fuel from exiting out the throttle shaft if flooding should occur. When a carburetor floods fuel will end up "puddling" on the throttle plates. A non-marine carburetor will allow this fuel to seep out of the throttle shaft ends and onto the manifold. This is not allowed on a marine carburetor because normally the engine is situated in an enclosed bilge where potentially deadly gasoline fuel fumes can accumulate. Throttle shafts that are "grooved" and "slabbed" channel the flooded fuel safely down into the intake manifold. With no raw fuel allowed to puddle on the manifold outside the carburetor, there is no chance of deadly fuel fumes to accumulate in the bilge and no chance of explosion or fire.
For these reasons an automotive carburetor should NEVER be used in a marine application."


Again, thanks to CP Performance.

 

[bomar76]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

And here is Edlebrocks description of the differences:
From the Edelbrock website...

"750 cfm, square-flange, electric choke, marine ....#1410*

For use in marine applications, these Edelbrock carbs comply with U.S. Coast Guard safety standards. Cast surfaces are iridited with Teflon-coated shafts and pump arm for maximum protection. Other features include modified bowl venting, specially designed throttle shafts, accelerator pump seal, 3/8" inverted flare fuel inlet fitting, tube in airhorn for fuel pump vent, 5-1/8" flame arrestor flange, universal throttle lever and revised secondaries for improved transient performance. Note: These carbs have no vacuum ports and are not for auto use. ."

 

[cr2k]

Re: Ford 302 starter question

Holy crap.

Will not ignite, kinda means the same as explosion proof cuz if it can't ignite it can't explode. No it is NOT really explosion proof since gasoline doesn't technically "explode" rather it combusts thru ignition.

Isn't that like saying you start your car, but really you don't start it, you turn the key that allows power to the ignition and energizes the starter motor to crank (well we don't use cranks anymore either) turn the engine to create compression for the fuel to ignite and sustain a rotating motion in the crankshaft.

Who are you mkast and freaking lawyer or a politician? So damn much double talk.


Someone please close this thread before we all go mad.