Gas prices

PW2

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Apr 21, 2004
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2,719
Re: Gas prices

If, for example, you eliminate the free market for oil and gas, how can you possibly expect private industry to invest in alternative energy?<br /><br />Or for people to change their driving habits, or their choice in vehicles--or vehicle manufacturers and the mileage their cars get? Or whether they use public transportation?<br /><br />That is what free markets are supposed to do, but they can't do them unless they are allowed to function.
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: Gas prices

PW2<br /> IF oil was a free market thing I would agree with you.<br /> however its not. the infastructure is mostly on public lands and uses public money to support quite a bit of its movement.<br />like electric companies and natural gas its more of a self monopolizing enterprise.<br />couple that with futures speculating and back room buddy policy making and the consumer is on a hook.<br /> my line of work precludes me from driving a prious or a bicycle. my mazda still gets close the 30 MPG with 164 some odd on the clock.<br /> while the demand for oil as gasoline and diesel is great the chemical industry takes quite a bit as well.<br /> look at the katrina photos and tell me what the gasoline prices on all the flooded gas stations show then look at 3 days after katrina. we did not get rainshowers here in kitty hawk from katrina yet our gas prices went from 1.40 to 3.50 per gallon in 4 days. most of the gas tanks were filled in the days before katrina yet the gas was sold for over 1.50 a gallon more than the standard markup.<br />only one gas station,dock of the bay, sold his entire tank,37,000 gallons, at pre-katrina prices until he had to buy the next load.<br /> the owner,a cousin, did not think it morally right to gouge so he lost the 1.50 a gallon profit he could have made a windfall on.<br /> Bush has given MILLIONS to the oil companies to develop alternate sources, so far the results seem rather dismal.<br /> kinda like giving the fox a sterno stove and the henhouse keys.<br />so I hesitate to endorse govt regulations, knowing the propensity for the govt to mess up a soup samich, I do think a bit of oversight may be a good thing.
 

T_I_M

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Apr 9, 2005
Messages
80
Re: Gas prices

For fun check this site out,<br /> Fun Fuel Facts <br />It's not as entertaning as here but it does have some intresting facts on inports and production.
 

nothreat

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Aug 7, 2004
Messages
123
Re: Gas prices

I guess I don't see how regulating the petroleum industry will deter business from looking for alternative energy sources. I assume that the implication is that they would see the potential for regulation of whatever resource they develop, and that might be happen I suppose. On the other hand if they were guaranteed a profit (say 10%) like the electric industry I think some would pursue it - enough to make it viable. Again, I am not against the free market, as long as it is free. I think the government is already headlong into the gas industry - just not entirely for the benefit of the consumer.
 

cmyers_uk

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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May 4, 2004
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760
Re: Gas prices

How about this, drive a car with a modern efficient engine, double your mileage its the same as halving the cost of gas.
 

PW2

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Apr 21, 2004
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2,719
Re: Gas prices

Rodbolt, your argument does not hold water.<br /><br />Some of them are different issues. If the infrastructure is on public lands, it is up to the government to assess access charges to those lands. If they don't do it adequately, that is a separate issue from controlling prices.<br /><br />I agree that the gov't should not allow tax incentives to the oil companies. That is a separate issue from having the gov't control product prices.<br /><br />I understand you need to use your car in work. It is up to you to get your employer or clients to properly compensate you for same
 

QC

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Mar 22, 2005
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Re: Gas prices

Although JB, PW2 and Chris Meyers are making sense too, Pony's point is the most important if you ask me.<br /><br />
Originally posted by P.O.N.Y.:<br />Even with that being said.....the price of gas now, adjusted for inflation, is still lower that it was in the 70's.
InfAdjGas1918_2005.gif
<br /><br />Soooooo, gasoline prices have actually gone down over the last 80+ years!!!! :mad: :mad: The gougin' flippin' bassssturds!!! :mad: :mad:
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 22, 2005
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Re: Gas prices

BTW, re: chart above. What regulated product has had real costs decrease over that same time period? Any time period? Not rhetorical, I don't know. Wouldn't any regulation scheme allow them to keep pace with inflation?
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: Gas prices

I can say from the been there done that of well over 5000 bicycle trips to work from 20 to 50 miles round trip the 3 dollar gas is cheeper than rideing :) <br /><br />Buy the way my record was useing the car 5 times in 18 months through two winters to much ice those 5 days :) <br /><br />
strongtom.jpg
<br /><br />I got the motor <br /><br />
P4041709.JPG
<br /><br />i got the bad weather bike in the dark bike<br /><br />
P4041710.JPG
<br /><br />i got the 19# ya hardly no its there bike<br /><br />You have no idea how much FOOD you gotta eat to make enough body power to move 20 miles on a daily trip<br /><br />Trust me 3 dollars for gas to drive 20 miles aint even close to what proper food cost :eek: <br /><br />I wont even go into the medical bills when from getting hit buy two cars :) <br /><br /><br />tommays
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: Gas prices

gotta see a 400 pound tool box and a trailer hitch with a 19ft sterndrive behind that bike :) :) .<br /> PW2 ya say it dont hold water then proceed to back me up.<br /> if you let the oil company's place pipelines and terminals willy nilly with profits placed ahead of risk you ask for a disater and a few have happened.<br /> its kinda like airports and train tracks. its a self made monopoly as no one else can break in.<br /> so I dont call for total govt regulation but by the very nature of a monopoly,no matter how or why, it needs a certain amount of regulation or the capitol goes and the public suffers.<br /> and T boone is so far wrong maybe he got that moon shot.<br /> I found out first hand that there is plenty of oil if the price is right.<br /> see texas has a little known law about capping unused wells, just so happened I worked for an oil field perforating and logging company, price dipped, or was gonna :) , and we sold the heck out of tubing and casing cutters and capping tools. price gonna climb? we could tell months in advance by the sudden orders of junk shots, uncapping explosives, and perforating guns to perforate the sides of a well to allow better oil drainage.<br /> look at canadas oil sands or Venezuelas tar. worthless 20 years ago. not anymore, at 50 a barrel there are trillions of barrels to be had. in fact soon VE will be declared to have the largest oil reserves cause at 50 a barrel its worth pumping.<br />so we are in no danger of running out it will just cost more to have your boat fixed or your car fixed or your subway veggie sandwinch made.<br /> if you think I am gonna eat the cost of the fuel I need some of what you got :) :) . the marinias I work for I bill at 45/hr the general public at 75/hr. if the price remains staedy at 2.50 plus a gallon and my general liability takes its proposed hike next month my 07 rates will be 60 and 90/hr respectivly.<br />or I will retire, not sure yet.<br />will it drive a lot of borderline folks out of boating? sadly I think so. but it wont slow down the rest.<br /> its not right nor good but it is what it is.
 

ZmOz

Captain
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
3,949
Re: Gas prices

Originally posted by Chris Myers:<br /> How about this, drive a car with a modern efficient engine, double your mileage its the same as halving the cost of gas.
Yeah, go out and spend $30,000 on an efficient car to get good mileage. That'll save money. :rolleyes: <br /><br />When they make a car that will haul four 200lb guys and tow a boat that gets 30mpg let me know.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 22, 2005
Messages
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Re: Gas prices

Originally posted by ZmOz:<br /> When they make a car that will haul four 200lb guys and tow a boat that gets 30mpg let me know.
Until then, please regulate gas prices . . .<br /><br />Dude, like wow, see the irony?
 

ZmOz

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Re: Gas prices

Originally posted by QC:<br />Until then, please regulate gas prices . . .
Even then gasoline is a commodity vital to the life of every american. Just as much as water.<br /><br />If Exxon used that massive pile of money they have to buy 75% of all electric companies in the US, then raised the price of electricity by 50% in the summer because that's when everybody needs AC...would you stand for that? Would the government allow that to happen? Of course not. Would there be riots in the streets? Probably. Would old people who can't afford electricity die? Maybe.<br /><br />How is gasoline any different? The government does control electricity, water, and natural gas prices...why shouldn't they control oil?
 

QC

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Re: Gas prices

I guess I think those things would be cheaper if the government was not involved. I honestly don't know, but the chart showing gasoline prices adjusted for inflation tells a pretty fair story too . . . Remember, when the gov't regulates natural gas prices, then it doesn't go down in summer either. Wholesale prices do.<br /><br />I just don't believe that the big oil companies are our enemies. Maybe you should look at it a little differently. They don't jack up prices when people need it, the demand does ;) <br /><br />Also, I am pretty sure I can go down to sebin elebin and pay $1 for 16 ounces of aqua fria. Oh, oh and they pay $6 a gallon for petrol in the UK. Ya tink dats Exxon? Yup, and they charge the same for the basic commodity. The Queen gets the rest. OK, not the Queen, but she waves at the dinero as it slips out of your pocket :D
 

JasonJ

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Aug 20, 2001
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4,163
Re: Gas prices

The current price increases are being caused by the phase out of MTBE. They want to replace the MTBE with ethanol. The industry that is producing the ethanol says it will be able to meet the increased supply demand, but the people who set the prices say the ethanol supplier won't be able to meet the increased demand. So the prices go up. <br /><br />What I don't understand is, who are these people who set the futures? They base their pricing not on fact or even true prediction, it seems they just throw prices out there and see what sticks. <br /><br />I still believe that the consumer is being taken advantage of. The industry knows most people are not willing to change their driving habits. The industry knows people are not going to run out and get econoboxes because they are too stupid to realize they were suckered by the automobile industry into thinking they need a giant SUV that does the same thing as a vehicle half its size.<br /><br />We are suckers, plain and simple. We all saw when we cut back on usage last fall the prices dropped. What did we do? we ran out and bought more gas suckers and started burning more gas and started crying when the prices went back up. The right answer would be for gas prices to go to a realistic price, whatever that may be, and stay there. Never before has there been such wild fluctuation in prices, it is ridiculous. <br /><br />Is Bush to blame? I suppose it's dumb to blame one man, but it is equally dumb to dismiss the possibility as well. Unless you have been hiding in a box or are too thick-headed to see reality, we are going through this because of choices made by certain people. I suppose we could blame Bin Laden. If he hadn't flown planes into buildings, Bush wouldn't have initiated a series of bad decisions that have done little else but divide the country and seperate us from the rest of the world at the same time. If Bin Laden would have kept to himself, Bush could have just cruised through his presidency at his ranch in Crawford with little complaint from the country.<br /><br />So who do we blame? Bin Laden for starting the whole mess? Bush for reacting poorly to 9/11 and arming the petrolium industry with an ability to jack prices whenever it feels like it? Do we blame ourselves because we can't stand the fact that the guy down the road just bought a crewcab duelly to take his kids to school and we just have to be as cool as he is? Do we blame the automobile industry for creating economical vehicles but making sure they are unappealing in comparison to the gas sucking SUVs and school bus sized pickup trucks?<br /><br />We, as consumers, are as much to blame as the petroleum industry, the automobile industry, and the government. Yes, gas is a necessity in our way of life. We have little choice. We do have a choice in how we use that gas. Buying a Suburban for the wife to get groceries and shuttle the kids to soccer practice and then crying about gas prices is equally as ignorant as invading countries and wasting lives over a vague maybe.<br /><br />I guess what I am saying is, if you are not being responsible in your actions, you should not be complaining. Me, I have a gas sucker, but it is a paid for gas sucker. It is less expensive than financing a fuel efficient vehicle. I also admit that I have this truck because of my boat, another needless luxury, but a paid for luxury. If I don't want to spend money on gas, I can simply use them less. I am not compelled to use them because I am making a giant payment every month. If gas went to $4 a gallon tomorrow, I would leave the boat on its trailer, leave the truck in the driveway, and ride my bike to work. That is how I deal with the gas prices.
 

JasonJ

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Aug 20, 2001
Messages
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Re: Gas prices

BTW, they do pay $6 a gallon in europe. And they drive vehicles that are so efficient that they actually spend less money than we do. Funny, you don't see a lot of SUVs over there. Just how do they live without big gas sucker cars? it must be horrible....
 

ZmOz

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Aug 13, 2003
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Re: Gas prices

Originally posted by QC:<br /> I guess I think those things would be cheaper if the government was not involved.
Maybe, but that's because there are a bunch of companies competing. What if there was only one company that served the entire west coast, and they could pick any price they want? Would it still be cheap?<br /><br />
Originally posted by QC:<br />I honestly don't know, but the chart showing gasoline prices adjusted for inflation tells a pretty fair story too . . .
It doesn't matter whether it's the cheapest it's ever been or not. The bottom line is, in the same year, Exxon was paying record high prices for raw materials AND made record high profits. Has any other company in history ever done such a thing?<br /><br />
Originally posted by QC:<br />Remember, when the gov't regulates natural gas prices, then it doesn't go down in summer either. Wholesale prices do.
This just averages out the price for consumers. They're only allowed to make a certain amount of profit, so they make a little more in the summer and a little less in the winter. The average still comes in below their limit.<br /><br />
Originally posted by QC:<br />Also, I am pretty sure I can go down to sebin elebin and pay $1 for 16 ounces of aqua fria.
And you don't have to fill your truck with 40 gallons of expensive water just so you can drive to work and back, either. Plus there are 58 other water brands to choose from.<br /><br />
Originally posted by QC:<br />Oh, oh and they pay $6 a gallon for petrol in the UK.
That's all taxes. They pay the same price for oil from Exxon that we do.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 22, 2005
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Re: Gas prices

Z I don't think you are disputing my points. Either is Jason. Jeez man, both of you own boats and fuel them. You don't need that stuff either. Buy a kayak.<br /><br />You are also right on fuel prices Jason, Europeans cannot afford to operate the same products that we do, how is that an indictment of big oil? Europeans don't drive more efficient vehicles, they drive smaller ones. There is a huge difference. Also, they drive more diesels, but current air regulations make that extremely difficult here. Exxon sells for the same price, but European gov'ts just waste more (the Queen comment was a metaphor for taxes Z). Come on, neither of you can like or endorse that.<br /><br />Z's comment about raw materials and profits has me thinking, but I still think I would rather have private business competing to lower costs than a regulated market that is incentivised to stagnate.
 

ZmOz

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Re: Gas prices

Originally posted by QC:<br />but I still think I would rather have private business competing to lower costs
I think the last time oil companies competed to lower costs was about 1900.
 

JRJ

Commander
Joined
Sep 11, 2001
Messages
2,992
Re: Gas prices

Originally posted by ZmOz:<br />
Originally posted by QC:<br />but I still think I would rather have private business competing to lower costs
I think the last time oil companies competed to lower costs was about 1900.
Actually, there were "gas wars" in the 1960's that made gasoline real cheap. Thats how we could afford to run 327's, 383's, 396's, 409's, and 427's :D :D
 
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