Gas prices

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Gas prices

When they make a car that will haul four 200lb guys and tow a boat that gets 30mpg let me know.

Try a Landrover Discovery 3 Diesel. Tow 7700lb , Fits 7 full size adults (UK Size ). Extra Urban 34mpg , Combined 30mpg around town 24mpg.<br /><br />

Europeans don't drive more efficient vehicles, they drive smaller ones

That is partly true they are smaller , but the engines are alot more effcient. This is why they can not sell similar sized small American made cars here.<br /><br />I dont want this to be a Europe v America debate the point is the culture of un-economic cars should change. The technology is out there the cost of fuel is what will make people embrace it.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Gas prices

When I was in France last year, we rented a Renault, forget what model....It was a diesel....Was comfy & got great mileage....I agree that we are behind on these types of vehicles.....I really liked that car.....It was almost SUVish.....JK

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Gas prices

Originally posted by Chris Myers:<br />Try a Landrover Discovery 3 Diesel. Tow 7700lb , Fits 7 full size adults (UK Size ). Extra Urban 34mpg , Combined 30mpg around town 24mpg.

Even if I wanted to spend $500+ a month for one of those things, they are not available in the US. Even then, I don't understand how people think they are saving money when they spend tens of thousands of dollars on an efficient vehicle. My Jeep may only get 15mpg, but compared to a new vehicle it comes with an unlimited free supply of gas.<br /><br />This is exactly why the US needs to regulate gas prices. The only efficient vehicles available here are small, embarrasssing to be seen in, uncomfortable, and couldn't tow a tricycle, let alone a boat. Gas prices wouldn't be so bad if we actually had some good choices for vehicles.

 

[QC]

Re: Gas prices

I have spent a ton of time in the UK and Europe and I have rented all of that stuff. Last year I rented a BMW 5 series diesel, and it may have been the best all around car I have ever driven. I am an efficiency freak.<br /><br />My point is that our fuel prices allow us to buy larger and more powerful vehicles on average AND emission regs make diesels extremely hard for us to certify, especially in California. Despite popular opinion, US emission regs are more stringent than the EU's. It is not that there are some technologies that we don't have or want.<br /><br />I want to be able to make those choices instead of extremely high tax rates on fuel making those decisions for me . . . There is no altruistic reason that Europeans buy more fuel efficient (read smaller) cars, it is because their more wasteful Governments force them to by taxing fuel to the point of $5+ per gallon for something that costs the same before it is taxed. Yes, they have come to live with these vehicles over the years and now seem to think we are wasteful because of our culture. We are wasteful because we can afford to be. I don't want us to end up where the super rich are the only ones who can afford to operate European made Ferraris, Porches, Aston Martins, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, etc. etc. Our high powered vehicles are more typically capable of carrying 6 - 9 passengers (no, that is not how they are most often operated), but they are extremely safe, large, family vehicles. In Europe high powered V8s are solely available to the affluent, because they can afford to operate them.<br /><br />How's that for an alternative perspective?

 

[txswinner]

Re: Gas prices

Some say supply and demand based on the cost of the product.<br /><br />How come gasoline has closed the gap across the US. Same in Texas as Ca. Could it be a result of a non-free market, like you know monopoly and collusion. This is where the government can react and help.<br /><br />How you ask!!!! This simple, the President of the United States calls the CEO of the top 5 largest oil companies in the US and says "Get the price of gasoline at the pump right or we will legislate it done by:<br /><br />1. Break up the companies (remember Exxon-Mobile once were competitors in the free market).<br /><br />2. Apply price caps.<br /><br />3. Regulate prices as in electric public monopolies.<br /><br />I give you 3 months to make the correction then I take a shot at getting it straight."<br /><br />That my friends is how the President can control this gouging.

 

[txswinner]

Re: Gas prices

JasonJ should be censured from this web site immediately and without possibility of return. He should be ostrasized by all feathered and dragged.<br /><br />What is this boats and trucks are "luxury items," somebody get a rope!!!!!

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Gas prices

Originally posted by QC:<br />My point is that our fuel prices allow us to buy larger and more powerful vehicles on average

It isn't that the fuel prices ALLOW us to buy inefficient vehicles...those are the *ONLY* option for most of us. Our options are:<br />1)Efficient asian death traps that don't have room for much of anything<br />2)Inefficient large vehicles<br />We couldn't buy efficient large vehicles if our lives depended on it. If we could, gas regulation wouldn't be as big of an issue, because at least we'd have the choice not to pay high gas prices and still be able to live our lives in a sprawling country. Right now there is no choice.<br /><br />

Originally posted by txswinner:<br />That my friends is how the President can control this gouging.

No arguement here. There are lots of ways our president could lower gas prices if he wanted to. As of today though, he has absolutely nothing to do with the $25 I just paid for 10 gallons.

 

[QC]

Re: Gas prices

Z,<br /><br />You can buy a VW Tuareg diesel 49 state. You can buy VW Golfs and Jettas, even a diesel one. SAAB (GM) has a wonderful, hi-tech turbo 4 cylinder that gets good MPG. The newest Yukons and Suburbans have cylinder cutout that is strictly for efficiency reasons. I believe there is now a diesel Mercedes available again. You can buy hybrids, that are the most fuel efficient gasoline systems available. Asian vehicles are no more death traps than their European or US counterparts. Since you mentioned it (safety), the most efficient European vehicles are even smaller than what we get, so like I said they are not more efficient, just smaller on average. An engine's efficiency is measured by lbs of fuel per horsepower hour. This means whether it is 1000 bhp or 10 bhp it is graded on the same curve. There is no technology from Europe that we do not have or already employ, we just buy bigger stuff. Moving bigger stuff takes more horsepower, more horsepower is more fuel. Period.<br /><br />I understand your point about paying capital $ for fuel savings, but lets assume you ARE gonna buy a new car, then these discussions make a little more sense. Payback analyses do favor buying new sometimes IF you burn a ton of fuel. Frankly, personal autos don't, commercial ones do.<br /><br />Another case in point is Australia. Their fuel prices are very similar to the US. Ya know what their most popular cars are? GM and Ford modern V8 muscle cars (they build them there and love them). Ya know what the Pontiac GTO is? An Australian made Holden Munaro. You can get a 5.4 liter DOHC rear drive Falcon down under. Yes, I said Falcon . . . looks kinda like a Taurus. They also have a blown in-line 6 version that is simply awesome. I believe it is over 300 bhp. Our Oz technician just got one. Is it their culture, lack of smarts, and wastefulness? No, it is because they can afford to run them. They also like vintage Mustangs and Camaros . . . <br /><br />Also, don't get sucked into their (UK) claims to fuel efficiency. Subtract 20% as their gallon is bigger . . .<br /><br />Sorry to keep fighting this one, but this belief that somehow we aren't allowed by the big bad auto manufacturers to have the coolest stuff makes me crazy. They'd sell you their mother's bicycle if you would buy it, just like they build V10 Viper powered pickups. People actually want that . . .

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Gas prices

Originally posted by QC:<br /> There is no technology from Europe that we do not have or already employ

Except small turbo diesels. Yeah there's a couple here and there, but the choices are very, very few. The only TD SUV I know of is the Jeep Liberty, and it gets crappy mileage, and I don't think you could ever make up the initial cost over gas at $2.75 for diesel. The newest suburbans aren't bad for a bus sized vehicle, but they're still nothing compared to a TD.

 

[PW2]

Re: Gas prices

I have to admit I am mortified and mystified by so many supposed conservatives on this board that somehow want to create a government bureacracy to control the price of gas, presumably by relating it to the cost of production plus a percentage of profit.<br /><br />That of course would increase the size of government specifically with the goal of having oil companies inflate their cost structure in order to maximize profits, at the expense of Americans.<br /><br />You want to take the most indefensible position of some liberals, and trumpet it as your very own? You all never cease to amaze me!

 

[QC]

Re: Gas prices

That's right PW2, you and me, two peas in a pod . . . <br /><br />Upon further review. Who are the "conservatives" supporting this PW?

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Gas prices

You're right Txwinner, what was I thinking! <br /><br />I spent all day today working on my kicker and Speedi-Sleeving the driveshaft on my main motor. All for the sake of getting out there and fishing. <br /><br />But like I said, at least its all paid for...<br /><br />QC, I wasn't saying it was an indictment on big oil, the europeans have just adapted to their situation.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Gas prices

Mutants.... <br />I knew it!

 

[txswinner]

Re: Gas prices

Lake Livingston laid down about 5:30 yesterday and whites were jumping into the boat. Lasted about two hours. Late dinner was great, fried fresh fish, and the leftovers made breakfast pretty good as well.<br /><br />Oh yeah and I ran the Johnny 175 wide open on the way in, no telling how much fuel I burned. Now that I got that company off my back I think I am going to live like a Rep. yahoo.<br /><br />Today I think I will hire an illegal to wash my boat. Cheaper and no American citizen wants the job anyway.

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Gas prices

QC, very interesting points, I enjoy reading it from your perspective.<br /><br />I agree that you guys buy big and big and heavy needs horse power. Disco 3 is 2.7 Tons its big and heavy but can still return 34mpg (accepting our gallon is bigger).<br /><br />Taxing fuel so it is expensive and has over the years changed demand and as such what is manufactured and sold. With the tax the wasteful governments can do things like provide free healthcare. <br /><br />The bottom line is oil will run out period. So why waste it. My point is you dont need cubic inches to get power just better design. <br /><br />I also dont agree that large = safe, especially when you hit a pedestrian which could be your child.

 

[QC]

Re: Gas prices

Thanks Chris, I think. My point was and still is that the only reason you (Europe) like and have transitioned to smaller vehicles is because you were economically forced to. I prefer our system which allows even the common man to own heavier, high-powered vehicles too. I want to have the choice to be irresponsible . . . BTW, I agree on cubic inches. You should see my posts in the I/O and tech sections, and boy have I taken a beating over there by claiming you don't need big block (7 liters +) power. I think pedestrians are screwed if they get hit by a Mini . . .<br /><br />Also, tell me if this is correct. My UK friends claim that they all buy supplemental health insurance because the waiting period to get an appointment for the "free" stuff is horrendous. Is that close to the truth? I honestly don't know.<br /><br />Oh, and you are right about the bottom line. So what? I guarantee the world will react when it is economically necessary. BTW, I sell alternative fuel stuff, I have no incentive to bash alternatives, efficiency, etc. In fact, quite the opposite . . . <br /><br />Jason,<br /><br />Sorry, I got carried away lumping you in with Z. We are close to agreement.<br /><br />Z,<br /><br />I am serious about how hard it is to certify light-duty diesels. Virtually impossible in CA and many states are adopting CA emission regulations. Funny thing is, as Chris knows, diesel is the simplest answer to so called "Greenhouse Gas" emissions, but the NOx police have made that very difficult. I absolutely agree that diesel premiums are hard to get a payback on for personal operators with US fuel prices, same with boats.

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Gas prices

QC, Totally agree we have been forced to use smaller more economic cars because of taxation. But what it seems to have done is force the manufactures to make fast / high horsepower cars that are also economic. BMW have lead this with the 535 diesel engine 272bhp 38mpg on the motorway cruising at 70mph in a car that will tow 2000Kg. They also use a particulant filter to trap any large emissions. I am not sure if this would be enough for CA. The problem may be that the American trucks / cars over here that I saw were big , heavy , live axles , big block engine but low on performance / power. This may not be a true reflection. I also may be comparing cars costing $60000 against cheaper cars.<br /><br />Re Pedestrians, the EU are forcing car manufacturers to make cars pedestrian friendly. The problems with big cars and dont get me wrong I drive a big 4*4 is that at the height they impact the head / chest of a child. There is no doubt that you can make cars safer if there is a will<br /><br />

Also, tell me if this is correct. My UK friends claim that they all buy supplemental health insurance because the waiting period to get an appointment for the "free" stuff is horrendous. Is that close to the truth? I honestly don't know.

True and false, we have private insurance to cover non critical things we pay approx £1000 for a family of 4 per annum. Get hit by a car , have a heart attack , stroke etc you all get free treatment in the same place. What is a shame is even when you go private you often get treated in the same 'free' hospital outside normal hours. This is really queue jumping if you are poor you will get treated for free within x weeks. If you are not you can pay and get seen straight away. Critical care you only have one choice rich or poor same care same timescales.<br /><br />Enjoy your cheap fuel and big truck, I will still enjoy my big truck and expensive fuel. It has been a pleasure reading your point of view. <br /><br />regards<br /><br />Chris

 

[QC]

Re: Gas prices

Yeah Chris, the part trap would solve one end of the equation, but not the NOx one. That's where diesels really struggle. Heavy duty diesel truck engines are transitioning to Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) in Europe, EGR here. Neither gets you to the CA emission standard levels for light duty yet. They will get there, but it is expensive . . . And don't ya know? Diesel emissions are killing you almost as fast as tobacco . . .