Help finding a start button

[Arkman]

I'm in the process of hooking up my electric start on my motor. I'd really like to get a cool looking "Engine Start" button but I can't find really anything that I think would work in a boating scenario. I would imagine that something like this button. Wouldn't work very well on a boat. I would think that as soon as some water/rain got on it it would go bad.

Does anyone know of anything similar to that button that might be "weatherproof"

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Help finding a start button

OK -- lets analyze the requirements first. The button you linked to is for a car engine that has a battery ignition. Do you understand the difference between battery ignition and magneto ignition? If not -- here is the short version. Because you have a battery does not mean you have a battery ignition. Cars have electronic ignition systems that are powered by the battery. The engine runs when 12 volts is applied to the ignition system. On an outboard magneto system, the stator on the engine provides the power for the ignition and the engine, once running does not even need a battery. So to run, the ignition switch OPENs the kill circuit in the ignition system -- just opposite that of a car. To kill the engine the ignition switch shorts the kill circuit to ground. So the button you have will spin the starter but it cannot start it because of the "closed" ignition circuit. Nor could it shut off the engine for the reason indicated above. If you want a start button, use a plain old chrome START button like you find on commercial vehicles and available at any auto store. It operates the starter solenoid. Now you still have to turn the key on, push the button to start, and then turn the key off to kill the engine. So why bother with this when the start function is already provided with the key switch.

 

[Arkman]

Re: Help finding a start button

Thanks silvertip. I guess I don't really understand the difference. My goal was to not have any key at all. My thought was to have an ignition switch and a start button. Does that make sense? As much as I hate keys maybe thats the right answer huh?

 

[seabob4]

Re: Help finding a start button

Let's say your motor shutdown is achieved by grounding the coil. Your current ignition switch does this. So why not replace the keyed ign switch with a toggle that can effectively do the same thing? I had a friend whose ignition switch on a Merc 75 would no longer ground the coil, thus she couldn't shut the motor down. She couldn't afford a new switch, so I wired in a toggle from the batt ground to her coil. She would simply flip the switch, and the motor would shut off. Flip it the other way, start the engine with the ignition switch.

You'd probably have to do a little probing with a multimeter to see which wires get voltage with the key in the run position and which wire sees voltage when the key is in the start position. Then take a 6-position on/off/on toggle and wire it accordingly...

Now you have no key!

 

[Arkman]

Re: Help finding a start button

Ok, now i'm even a bit more confused. Let me give you guys some more background.

I have a 1968 mercury 20hp. Right now it has everything it needs to be an electric start but the external (boat side?) wiring harness. I have found this harness but its really expensive. Right now my motor has the starter solenoid, electric choke solenoid, and the the starter itself. All hooked to the internal wiring harness.

My plan was to take out the internal harness and just run the proper wires to to the proper spots. Not knowing that I didn't know what I was doing I planned on having a toggle switch for an "ignition" switch. A push button to start the motor. A kill button (not sure if I need that or could just flip the ignition switch to off). A toggle switch for choke.

With all that explained does that make sense what I was going for? I realize that I could probably get a key switch that does all of those same things in one convenient spot. But whats the fun in that!

Is what I'm doing stupid? Will it work/not work?

If I understand you silvertip (after I read your post like 10 times; not because it wasn't right or anything...just cause I'm dumb) There is basically three positions on the key switch for the boat motor. There is off, iginition, and start.

1. When the key is in the off position that essentially means I'm holding down the kill button? Is that correct?

2. Then there is the ignition position. That means the kill button is no longer being held down. Allowing the coils to do their job? Is this correct?

3. The start position engages the starter motor. That spins the fly wheel and starts the engine. Once the engine starts you turn the key back to the ignition spot, sort of like in a car. Is this correct?

If I understand this correctly I could get a toggle switch with an ON and Off position, that would be like the key being either off or act just like the key in the ignition position. Then I could push in a button similar to what I posted, that would only engage the starter motor. So once the engine starts I release the start button. Since the toggle switch is still in the "ON" position the engine is allowed to continue to run, until I flip that toggle switch. Is the correct?

Sorry for the long post, I just want to understand how this all works.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Help finding a start button

Arcman, Post the year and make of the motor, and we can likely advise on the type of igntion. Most OBs after the 70s have CDI ignition that is grounded to kill the motor. Do you have an electric choke?

Normally you would want a DPDT switch, and a pushbutton for the choke and another pushbutton for the starter. Flip the switch to unground the ign, and power the choke and starter buttons, hold down the choke button, push the starter button to start the motor. Flip the switch to kill the motor, and the power to the starter and choke.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Help finding a start button

Geez -- the simple solution to this to have two buttons. One stop and one start. But you still need to retain the kill switch and you still need a way to choke the engine for starting unless your engine has an automatic choke or is and EFI/DFI engine in which case be darned carefull what you wire to what. The KILL (or STOP) button simply does what the current ignition switch does in the OFF position -- it grounds the ignition. No need to go near the coils or rig any toggle switches. The START button does the same thing the START position does on the current ignition switch -- it energizes the solenoid. Ignoring the "choke" situation, you press the START button to start the engine. No need to turn it ON because a magneto system is ALWAYS on except when shorted to ground. To stop the engine you press the STOP button and hold it until the engine stops. At that point the flywheel is not turning so there is no current flowing in the ignition system and when you let go fo the button the engine is ready to start again. As for choking, you could use a three position toggle switch providing CHOKE-RUN-OFF (or STOP).

And lastly, with no keys -- how do you intend to keep this boat in your possession after you are done bragging about this system to your friends (and maybe some who are not your friends. The solution to that issue is to hide a toggle switch under the console that disables the starter circuit (e.g., in series with the START button).

 

[Arkman]

Re: Help finding a start button

Ok, I know I'm making this way more difficult that need be. That what I always do. The motor is just a 20hp tiller motor. Currently no counsel, no ignition or anything. Just a pull start. There is an electric choke but its not automatic. Right now all i know about the current kill switch is it is two wires one running to one coil the other running to the other. I think at least.

The only reason I want a toggle switch is to make it so kids or my dog don't start the motor accidentally. You'd be surprised what my dog can do. As far as the boat remaining in my possession. I'm not any more worried then I was before since it was a pull start, I lock it up whenever no in use. Although a key would help that a bit.

I'm trying to track down a wiring diagram, that should make it more clear to me. I know I have one somewhere.

Silvertip- thanks for your help. Please don't think I'm trying to argue with you or anything. I'm just trying to get my head on straight here.

 

[seabob4]

Re: Help finding a start button

Whatever, sounds like fun. Your thinking is definitely doable, just have to know what needs power when, wire wise...

 

[Arkman]

Re: Help finding a start button

Well I found a wiring diagram. I think I'm more confused now then before. Here is the diagram. I still think I might try to figure out what is going on there and make it so that I don't need a key. But I might just break down and put a key in. We'll see. That diagram makes my head hurt!

 

[seabob4]

Re: Help finding a start button

Piece of cake! You have 3 circuits, "Start", "Run", and "Off". Start obviously has top be momentary, that would be the yellow wire. A and F need to be energized whether in start or run. The rest have to involve shutdown.

See if I can decipher for you into a little more simplified drawing involving toggles and push buttons. Remember, a push-button is simply a momentary on/off...

 

[Arkman]

Re: Help finding a start button

Thanks sea bob. I see most of what I need to do I'm just struggling with that last little bit. Like you said some need to be energized and I'm not getting which ones. That would be great if you make something for me. I'm going to try to work on a diagram to post for people to look at. Basically I was hoping to have a push button start. A toggle ignition and a toggle choke (either momentary or not, I guess I dont know what makes sense).

The ideal sequence for starting the motor would be be flip the ignition to on or run or whatever. Flip the choke to on (or hold if its momentary). Push start button. Engine starts. Flip/release choke switch. Then when I need to turn the engine off I just flip the ignition to the off position. Does this make sense?

 

[seabob4]

Re: Help finding a start button

Thanks sea bob. I see most of what I need to do I'm just struggling with that last little bit. Like you said some need to be energized and I'm not getting which ones. That would be great if you make something for me. I'm going to try to work on a diagram to post for people to look at. Basically I was hoping to have a push button start. A toggle ignition and a toggle choke (either momentary or not, I guess I dont know what makes sense).

The ideal sequence for starting the motor would be be flip the ignition to on or run or whatever. Flip the choke to on (or hold if its momentary). Push start button. Engine starts. Flip/release choke switch. Then when I need to turn the engine off I just flip the ignition to the off position. Does this make sense?

Yep. It's doable, and would make a neat little set up. We'll come up with something that is along the order you want...

 

[seabob4]

Re: Help finding a start button

So I started to put together a diagram, and realized the "monkeywrench" in the works is the yellow wire that energizes the starter solenoid. Now I can do it with 2 switches, one an on/off/on to both energize the starter solenoid and also provide power to the run/stop switch. But now you are getting into placing multiple switches in different positions depending on what you want to do. Now it is clear in the drawing that when the key switch is in the start position, yellow is energized by red. What isn't so clear is that white and salmon must allow that current to continue to flow to the solenoid when either they have continuity or if they don't...I don't know that. Some simple continuity checks at the start button and the starter solenoid can tell you that.

Just by a new ignition switch and be done with it!

 

[Arkman]

Re: Help finding a start button

So its like a secret way to start the engine. one switch on one off then rub your tummy and pat your head...I like it! Its so spy-like.

Okay okay. I'll just get a key! Thanks so much for the help though!

 

[Arkman]

Re: Help finding a start button

so is something like this the proper key to get http://www.iboats.com/3-Position-Pu...1741492--**********.909138773--view_id.197316

 

[seabob4]

Re: Help finding a start button

That should work. Just make sure it has the 6-pin pattern on the back side. That's a damn good price.

 

[Thad]

Re: Help finding a start button

The ideal sequence for starting the motor would be be flip the ignition to on or run or whatever. Flip the choke to on (or hold if its momentary). Push start button. Engine starts. Flip/release choke switch. Then when I need to turn the engine off I just flip the ignition to the off position. Does this make sense?

Yep, makes perfect sense...you want your helm ignition to resemble that of the cockpit of a Blackhawk

 

[Arkman]

Re: Help finding a start button

Exactly thad!!! How sweet would that be. My junky little fishing boat and my 40 year old motor start about the same a blackhawk...except I bet the blackhawk starts better!

 

[Arkman]

Re: Help finding a start button

Arcman, Post the year and make of the motor, and we can likely advise on the type of igntion. Most OBs after the 70s have CDI ignition that is grounded to kill the motor. Do you have an electric choke?

Normally you would want a DPDT switch, and a pushbutton for the choke and another pushbutton for the starter. Flip the switch to unground the ign, and power the choke and starter buttons, hold down the choke button, push the starter button to start the motor. Flip the switch to kill the motor, and the power to the starter and choke.

OK guys, I'm back at it. I feel like its one of those things that wont go away. I'd really like to make this work. If its not possible thats fine. If it is just complicated thats fine too, I'd still like to try.

Chris- You posted at the same time as me so you probably didn't see. Its a 1968 mercury 20hp. And I'm basically starting from scratch with the wiring. What you wrote is exactly what I'd like to do, I just don't know how One thing that really confuses me is that in the wiring diagram it labels a button as the ignition starting button. From what I can trace back that is the kill switch on my motor.

Any advice? Besides buy a key switch?