Help help - my tank is stuck...

[kcassells]

Dang tight their! Looks like a few days of frustration working the end up where your shoe toes are at.
LOL prob shouldn't be standing on the wedge you are trying to get out.
Maybe a comealong, straps and try to slid some angled metal underneath tank, work with tension.
How old is tank? If its the originAL 74' TIME TO LET IT GO.

 

[GKevinR]

Dang tight their! Looks like a few days of frustration working the end up where your shoe toes are at.
LOL prob shouldn't be standing on the wedge you are trying to get out.
Maybe a comealong, straps and try to slid some angled metal underneath tank, work with tension.
How old is tank? If its the originAL 74' TIME TO LET IT GO.

unfortunately, i wasnt standing on it when the chains we had attached to a 1/2"x10" bolt nearly bent the bolt in half and started to put small tears in the sending unit hole. tank seems to be in very good shape - what I can see. if i can save it, i'd like to. i have enough other things to spend $ on as it is.

 

[kcassells]

Plug it up and do a pressure test on it. Will tell you right away if you are wasting your time time or money. Typically/most times they are not repairable.
Good luck!

 

[tpenfield]

If the cheese cutter concept is not working, you could try some leverage with a 2x4 along the side at the front or rear corners of the tank. As pictured below . . .
.

.
If you can get a 2x4 or similar piece of lumber down the side of the tank, you can apply some leverage of the top corner of the tank to try to 'rock' it back and forth, which may start to break the bond of the foam to the hull. I'd only apply leverage at the corners of the tank, which are the strongest part.

 

[GKevinR]

If the cheese cutter concept is not working, you could try some leverage with a 2x4 along the side at the front or rear corners of the tank. As pictured below . . .
.

.
If you can get a 2x4 or similar piece of lumber down the side of the tank, you can apply some leverage of the top corner of the tank to try to 'rock' it back and forth, which may start to break the bond of the foam to the hull. I'd only apply leverage at the corners of the tank, which are the strongest part.

yep - already tried that one. you cant see it in the pictures, but near one end are aluminum angle brackets screwed through the deck into stringers for holding the flip back cooler seat. they are about 4 inches from the opening on either side. I used those to back up a piece of 2x4 as a base to lever against (so i wouldnt be pressing on the fiberglass coffin) with another longer piece of 2x4 (also tried a 2x6) as the pry bar. and i did it on a corner. nada. i bent the 2x6 about as far as i dared. the only thing related i havent tried is figuring out a way to leave the 2x6 bent and pressured to see if time will do the trick.

I'm telling you - if i didnt know better (hope better), I'd say they glued it in with epoxy. It's ridiculous. when we did the chain/bolt lifting trick many of the boat restorers used, it picked up the entire end of the boat. the weight caused small tears in the sending unit hole and nearly bent the 1/2" bolt in half. That thing is in there...

 

[kcassells]

If you think their is an adhesive holding it down then just for its and giggles pour a gallon of acetone in and let it soak.
Note; It can get sloppy and may do nothing.
Have you seen or done a pressure test on the tank?

 

[76SeaRay]

Can't tell from the pictures but did you cut the foam along the sides of the tank all the way around? I had to do that with my 60 gal tank before I could get it to break loose from the floor. I was then able to work it up and down a bit with leverage being careful of the leverage points. Actually used a steel pry bare and the stringers since those are getting replace anyway.

I got the tank out (1976 vintage) but decided with the corrosion on the bottom and sides and the sludge inside (including a dissolved sending unit) that I would get a new tank made... My new custom made belly tank was $850 plus shipping and turn around was just a few weeks. I am in Washington and the tank was made in New Jersey so shipping ran about $150. Mine has a V bottom where your's looks flat so guessing your cost might be less in an equivalent size.. My tank is fantastic, includes all the fittings and came already epoxy coated. You may want to think about a new tank if yours is really old.. Smell the inside, that might help to convince you, it did me... Hate the smell of rotten gas....

 

[76SeaRay]

By the way, the place I got my tank said that there are new regs on installing gas tanks. They can't be foamed in place anymore....

 

[alldodge]

By the way, the place I got my tank said that there are new regs on installing gas tanks. They can't be foamed in place anymore....

Folks say all kinds of things, so Please provide USCG regs which state that

 

[76SeaRay]

Yeah, I know that... Just saying I heard it so check before installing.. The rules on it are rather lengthy but I believe it has to do with foam ability to retain moisture against the metal tank that is the concern....

 

[76SeaRay]

Here are the regs I found to answer the question and let the thread get back to the stuck tank (sorry for the diversion):

Metallic fuel tanks must be designed, installed, or a provision made to drain water from the surface when the boat is in its static floating position. (See 183.505 for the definition of static floating position). It is recognized that irregularities in the top surface of a flat-topped fuel tank may be able to retain water by surface tension. The intent of this requirement is to prevent the entrapment of water which may occur with lipped edges or saucer type tops on fuel tanks. Foamed-in-place metallic (must be non-ferrous) fuel tanks must be installed with a provision made to prevent water from collecting on top of the metal surface of the fuel tank, such as might occur if the foam formed a basin around fuel tank fittings. An alternate method is to coat the metal fuel tank surface with a barrier coating, other than paint, which will effectively prevent water from contacting the metal surface.

Unless a metallic fuel tank has built-in means for supporting and holding the metallic fuel tank in place, a non-moisture absorbing material must be placed between the fuel tank surface and the support, chock or strap. The non-moisture absorbing quality of the material is necessary to prevent localized corrosion of the fuel tank that might occur if moisture was trapped at the support tank interface for prolonged periods of time. Care should be taken to avoid abrasive combinations of materials even though it is not a mandated requirement of the regulation. Basically, this requirement provides for the isolation of the metallic fuel tank from a potentially moisture laden support system and also from abrasion by the supports, chocks and straps. The following table lists some materials that appear to be suitable and some that should be avoided.

FUEL TANK ISOLATION MATERIALS SUITABLE Neoprene, Teflon, High Density Plastics, FUEL TANK ISOLATION MATERIALS UNSUITABLE Unpainted Wood, Felt, Canvas, Foams

 

[alldodge]

This is Title 33 CFR, sections183

Start page 59 and foam remains acceptable

https://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/AssetManager/ABYC.1002.01.pdf

Will admit that not using foam is better if draining system is also maintained so water cannot collect under tank. Water in a tank even small has same problem

Tanking a foamed in tank and making in air gaped is acceptable so long as the structure support is installed to offset the foam support of the deck above

 

[alldodge]

Looks like I missed your last post, but does appear the regs are the same and haven't changed. The one above is interpretation by the ABCY and the one here is downloaded from .gov site

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2019-title33-vol2/pdf/CFR-2019-title33-vol2-sec183-550.pdf

 

[GKevinR]

Dont know how many of you heard a tearing pop about 15 minutes ago, but THE TANK IS OUT !!! put a 2x6 vertical where it just caught the corner of the tank. tow strapped the top of it to my pickup. put a small bend in it. I had been doing this for days - just with hand pressure (wrong tool for the job apparently). got a little bend in it and heard a little velcro rip sound. Grinned like a chicken. Waited until it quick crackling - put another inch of bend in it. when i got to about 6-7 adjustments, there was a very satisfying rip and the 1/8" of crystalized 46-year old foam on the bottom let loose. That stuff is more like glue than foam...literally solid and cracks if you bend it.

Thanks to all who were sympathetic and offered suggestions. Next task - replace the filler hose. I've already heard how bad this one can be. For tonight, I'm happy and progress is made.

 

[kcassells]

Awesome...Just was getting tired talking about that dang tank for so long! I hope it holds pressure. :joyous:

 

[GA_Boater]

Sometimes you need to pull out the BFH for delicate work!

Now why did tank have to come out? I'm sure the reason is way back there someplace.

 

[tpenfield]

GKevinR - See that wasn't so hard after all Just got to find the magic touch :facepalm:

76SeaRay - Be careful what you hear. Foamed in tanks are still OK per USCG Regs. In many cases the structural strength of the boat is relying on the tank being foamed in. So, if you replace a foamed-in tank with a strapped-in tank, the boat may not be as strong and will feel 'loose' going through choppy conditions, etc.

FWIW - When I first got my boat, it felt really loose. Cabinet doors would pop open in choppy sea conditions and generally just didn't seem right as compared to my previous boat. Shortly into my ownership, I discovered that the foam had separated from the tank in many areas. I removed the tank (which was relatively easy since there was less foam holding it) re-painted it with epoxy barrier coat and re-foamed it in. The boat tightened right up . . . no more cabinets popping open, etc.

BTW - The tech support folks at Formula Boats advised me to re-foam the tank, since it affects the strength of the boat in a positive manner.

 

[76SeaRay]

Hey that's great that the tank is out... Hopefully it didn't do any damage coming out....

tpenfield. I am by no means and expert on the subject. Just doing research as I get ready to put in my new tank where the old one was foamed in. See the notes above about foamed in tank regs and water absorption, however, in the regs, the use of a tank as structural member is not allowed based upon what I read.. Again, individuals need to make their decisions as best they can and I will not be foaming in my new tank... Here is the excerpt I found on tanks as part of the structure...

A fuel tank is not permitted to be a structural part of a boat to the extent that it provides support for a deck, bulkhead or other boat structure. To determine whether the intent of this regulation is met, the following question must be answered in the affirmative - Is the deck, bulkhead or other structural component properly supported to function as intended with the fuel tank removed? If the answer is no, the tank is providing support that is not acceptable. It is not intended to prohibit incidental contact of a deck, or hatch with a fuel tank, or to prevent the use of protective covers or panels for fuel tanks. The Coast Guard has also accepted fuel tanks specifically designed to be walked or sat upon: Protective mats or panels resting on the tank top to provide a walking surface have also been accepted by the Coast Guard. TO COMPLY The fuel tank does not support a deck, bulkhead, or other structural component. The structure will not collapse if the tank is removed.

 

[tpenfield]

Hey that's great that the tank is out... Hopefully it didn't do any damage coming out....

tpenfield. I am by no means and expert on the subject. Just doing research as I get ready to put in my new tank where the old one was foamed in. See the notes above about foamed in tank regs and water absorption, however, in the regs, the use of a tank as structural member is not allowed based upon what I read.. Again, individuals need to make their decisions as best they can and I will not be foaming in my new tank... Here is the excerpt I found on tanks as part of the structure...

A fuel tank is not permitted to be a structural part of a boat to the extent that it provides support for a deck, bulkhead or other boat structure. To determine whether the intent of this regulation is met, the following question must be answered in the affirmative - Is the deck, bulkhead or other structural component properly supported to function as intended with the fuel tank removed? If the answer is no, the tank is providing support that is not acceptable. It is not intended to prohibit incidental contact of a deck, or hatch with a fuel tank, or to prevent the use of protective covers or panels for fuel tanks. The Coast Guard has also accepted fuel tanks specifically designed to be walked or sat upon: Protective mats or panels resting on the tank top to provide a walking surface have also been accepted by the Coast Guard. TO COMPLY The fuel tank does not support a deck, bulkhead, or other structural component. The structure will not collapse if the tank is removed.

Yes to all of that . . . the tank being foamed-in is not part of the structure, it merely stiffens the structure. That is the case with many 'belly' tanks that are foamed in between the main stringers of a boat. If the tank was removed, the structure would still have integrity, but not as stiff.

GKevinR - You should probably consider what impact foaming in the tank has/had on the ride/handling of the boat. there is that old saying we have on the Restoration forum . . . "re-build it like it was built, if not better" . You can probably see how the boat was built. The question would be if changing it is going to be 'better'.

 

[Scott Danforth]

- You should probably consider what impact foaming in the tank has/had on the ride/handling of the boat. there is that old saying we have on the Restoration forum . . . "re-build it like it was built, if not better" . You can probably see how the boat was built. The question would be if changing it is going to be 'better'.

Exactly. it lasted 45 years from the factory. that is 3x longer than the boat was supposed to last for. build it like it was.....go boating and in another 45 years, someone else can worry about it.