HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

[sumrsalt]

We have a 2002 Honda 225 engine. At 7 hours, the oxygen sensor required replacement. At 20 hours, the oxygen sensor required replacement again. After many hours of discussion with the lovely customer service department, they finally claimed the sensors were faulty. The "new and improved" sensor was supplied (after 3 weeks of waiting), and this sensor lasted until 130 hours. <br /> <br />A concern that we've had since day one, was the exhaust system sits at the waterline. We've wondered if there was a potential for the water to be drawn into the exhaust manifold. Our concerns have manifested themselves in that at 130 hours our engine had no top end. Upon removing the O2 sensor, we encountered significant corrosion on the sensor. Upon removing the spark plugs (recommended inspection at 200 hours, repleacements at 400 hours), 5 came out and 1 would not. We now have an engine with spark plug threads broken off in the cylinder head. We suspect we also have significant rust in the cylinder head. <br /> <br />Note: We have a Racor Water separator in addition to the dual water separators on the engine. No water has entered this engine via the fuel system from day one. <br /> <br />What to do, warranty ran out August 31, 2005. <br /> <br />Does anyone have any suggestions? Has this happened to you? I think we've hit the tip of the iceberg, what is going to happen as these engines age.

 

[tommays]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

Your not tilting the motors OUT of the water when not in use ? <br /><br /><br />tommays

 

[sumrsalt]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

This motor has been tilted up and flushed with fresh water after every use. With a fifteen thousand dollar price tag, every precaution has been taken. My hope was that I would not have to think about another outboard for the rest of my life. If "internal" corrosion is to the point that the factory "NKG" spark plugs cannot be removed at less than half the recommended replacecment interval, what is next? How long before the piston rings crack, or the compression is lost due to scored cylinder walls.

 

[tommays]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

I cant say but it sounds like the plugs were in there 4 years ? <br /><br />Generaly matiance is XXX hours OR 1 YEAR as it could take some people 10 years to put 200 hours on <br /><br /><br />tommays

 

[sumrsalt]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

This motor was bought late in the summer of 2002. The 20 hour service was conducted at the end of our boating season that year. We basically have put 3 summer seasons on this motor (2003-2005). <br /><br />According to our invoice for the 20 hour service, plugs were checked and were fine. The dealer told us the plugs did not need to be checked again until the 200 hour service.<br /><br />Had we known that corrosion of the plugs was an expected problem, we would've checked the plugs after every 10 hours. But that seems just a bit ridiculous. Sorry for the sarcasm, but we figured following the recommendations of the owners manual and our dealer we would be fine until 200 hours. We didn't even make it that far without serious problems.

 

[DJ]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

You mentioned that the exhaust sits at, or very near, the waterline.<br /><br />I believe you have a water ingestion problem that occurred with the boat at rest, or decelleration. Not uncommon on I'O's, rarely an issue on outboards.<br /><br />I think you are in a pickle here. Honda is going to say it was an installation issue. The dealer is going to say it was a design issue.<br /><br />To be frank, I would not expect much out of Honda. At least that has been my experience with them.<br /><br />I would try to RATIONALLY/CALMLY work this out with your dealer.<br /><br />Good luck, let us know.

 

[sumrsalt]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

Thank you, "SUPREME MARINER" for your thoughts on the matter. I find myself in quite an expensive pickle. Meanwhile, our boating season is in full swing and my Grady-White is going nowhere. I guess, as a consumer in our modern age, I should have consulted a design engineer before making a purchase.

 

[DJ]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

smrsalt,<br /><br />I am assuming some things.<br /><br />1. The boat is trailered or dry stored?<br /><br />2. The dealer performed your maintenance services?<br /><br />If both of those are true, you have those in your favor.<br /><br />With that said, let the dealer be your advocate, with the manufacturer.<br /><br />For the spark plugs to be corroded that badly, salt water somehow got to them, whether internally or externally (spray under hood). The latter should be easy to see. If internally, there are other issues that should be addressed by at least a partial disassembly.<br /><br />Whether or not this is going to cost you anything, I cannot say. I read your frustration, yet getting to the root cause is your goal, at this point. If that cause is not corrected, it will happen again.

 

[DJ]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

I did a search on the Honda Forum, of this board. This topic may interest you. See below.<br /><br /><br /> http://forums.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=001257#000014

 

[sumrsalt]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

DJ, The boat is slipped in a very sheltered marina from June to September, engine tilted up, and flushed after every use. The 20 hour maintenance was done by the dealer. Do you know of any modifications Honda has made to this model since its introduction to the market in '02. Thanks, Sumrsalt.

 

[tommays]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

I read your manual online and sparkplugs are a check and clean item every year ?<br /><br />I would read your copy and see if it says the same<br /><br /><br />tommays

 

[DJ]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

smrsalt,<br /><br />I am not aware of any publications that address your situation. However, there are several Honda guru's on this forum. Keep the topic bumped up toward the top. They'll be along.<br /><br />I did, however, find several threads regarding Honda 225's-specifically. I used the search function, at the top of the page, and used the search words: "Honda 225". There is some interesting reading.<br /><br />Whether or not the plugs should come out yearly, or not, is really not the issue, in my opinion. The issue is corrosion caused by water ingestion. Water ingestion is not a normal phenom.<br /><br />Many 4-stroke outboards "make" water that ends up in the crankcase. That is quite a different issue from what you are experiencing.<br /><br />I still think you had/have an installation issue.<br /><br />You may also want to contact Grady White and see if they have any specific recommendations for mounting a very heavy outboard, such as yours, on that hull.

 

[sumrsalt]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

DJ, We contacted Grady-White before this engine was installed and they would not make a recommandation pro or con, as to not libel themselves. We removed a custom built OMC 225, which ran very well, but drank fuel. We were told by the dealer that weight was not an issue. I asked my dealer about a 100 hour service "once-over" and was told there was no need. If you cannot depend on an "AUTHORIZED" dealer, who then.

 

[BF130]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

I agree that the exaust sits close to if not at the water line. But I would suspect that the heat would burn off any moisture unless you're not running the motor to operating temp. Are you? In rough seas, I can hear my exaust go under with the with each wave while drifting. But haven't had o/2 issues.<br /><br />About the plugs - what did the others look like? Did the engine run rough? I would suspect many operating issues if water was in there. What did the oil look like? I change my plugs every year. The $ on plugs is nominal and it's an easy job.<br /><br />Sorry to hear about your issues, certainly isn't what you would expect to incur with such a large recreational investment.

 

[nevd]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

Sumrsalt,<br /><br />Is the broken spark plug in the lowest cylinder?<br /><br />Your concern about water level in the exhaust system appears valid. When not running, outboards can have water track up the exhaust port if the motor is very low on a heavily loaded deep Vee or Cat hull. The Honda would be heavier than the OMC so would be more susceptible to water in cylinders.<br /><br />With the motor timmed fully down (in) and with maximum load at the transom, what clearance is there from water level to bottom of lower cylinders? Remember that wave action and other conditions will decrease this clearance dimension particularly on a pod mounted outboard.<br /><br />How much lower (if any) is the oxygen sensor compared with the lowest cylinder?

 

[sumrsalt]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

Thanks for the feed back, sorry for not getting back untill late. The engine would run fairly well at low rpm but had no top end, thus the pulling of the plugs. The other plugs were in rough shape, "Tommays" was correct, they are a yearly check and clean. The oil was fresh in appearence. Our average run would never be less than 10 miles so "operating temps" would not factor in. The "exhaust" does snorkle. The o/2 sensor sits very near the top of the exhaust manifold on the left side and the plug problem occured in the top right cylinder. As far as I can tell the bottom cylinders are well above the waterline. Now, for a rundown of my days events, a trip to the dealer. I ventured into my dealer at the perfect time, three bolts away from the cylinder heads removal. If I had not seen with my own eyes I would not have belived, the lack of corrision. The pistons did not appear burnt, nor the cylinder walls scored. Valves, valve seats, exhaust ports all appeared consistent with an engine of my usage interval. The dealer was able to remove the remnents of the broken spark plug from the head and will reassemble when new gaskets arrive. I am hoping & praying that no major damage has been done, I will find out soon. All this leaves me wondering just what has occured. Thanks guys.

 

[tommays]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

Good to here its not that bad <br /><br />I would have the water pump serviced as well as the rest of the cooling system<br /><br />Even if the pump is fine it becomes and issue of NOT comeing apart in saltwater if its not serviced on a regular basis<br /><br /><br />tommays

 

[DJ]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

smrsalt,<br /><br />Glad to hear it may be OK. I would take tommays advice, if it has not been done recently.

 

[sumrsalt]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

Hopefully, I will get a test run in a day or two, and everything will go well. I will keep you informed. Thanks, Sumrsalt.

 

[OBMD]

Re: HELP!! Honda 225 Saltwater Entering via Exhaust?

I assume (trouble) that this is a 25" motor. Was it hung by Grady-White?? Honda produced at notice that says, "With the boat loaded. stationary, and the outboard perpendicular to the H2O surface, there MUST be 5" between the H2O surface and the exhaust ports." If you have the clearance, the motor could have a exhaust manifold that is porous.