Help me get newer 3.0 running right!!!

Mule Laker

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Messages
140
I'm working on a 2007 Glastron with a Mercruiser TKS 3.0. I can use it but I can't believe it's running correctly the way the idle varies and the difficulty of starting. It's a new boat to us last fall, but with the late spring we've just had a few hours to play with it. Fyi, it runs super on top and holeshot. Smooth, with no hesitation anywhere. The "problems" I'm having are starting and idling.

Okay, this thread is to ask questions about cleaning the carb. I've tried a myriad of idle and mixture screw setting and it still acts like the low speed circuit is dirty. First of all, what does the low speed circuit consist of in this carb? I've disassembled/set up many carbs in my life but they have all been Mikuni's and Keihin's on motorcycles. When a bike does what this boat is doing I figure pilot jets right away. So basically I just want to start with a carb cleaning and wanted guidance on taking it apart and what to look for. What should I order for new parts, if any?

carb is stamped 866140001 33 6809

engine serial is 1A012558


I think it's like this, correct me if I'm wrong.

Screenshot2013-06-17at24803PM.png
 

PeterB26

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
95
Re: Help me get newer 3.0 running right!!!

First check the obvious. Is the fuel pump working properly? Is the float leaking and sinking? Are the needle and seat clean? Is the inlet screen clean? etc...

The part in the above diagram marked "21" has some emulsion tubes attached to its underside. These get crud in them and screw up your idle. You need to remove "21" with its emulsion tubes and clean it out. The emulsion tubes do not disassemble from "21." Well not easily anyway.

You need the gasket "30" that goes under "21" and the number "35" gasket, and some other fiber wahers and stuff on tomp of "21" so you may as well get an entire rebuild kit. When you take "21" off the gasket will be a mess. You will have to clean it all up before you reassemble. Don't scratch the sealing surfaces! Make a little WOODEN scraper by sanding down the end of a dowel to a chisle point and take your time. You may have to do the same for the cover gasket. Once you have done this arduous job of cleaning the first time you won't have to mess with it again. The gaskets will come apart properly the next time.

Watch out for the little ball in the bottom of the float bowl. Some of them fall out and get lost when you turn the disassembled carb over. Some do not. It depends on your carb. Also don't drop the teeny tiny extra little part with the needle out from under the float when you turn the cover over. (Part of group "14")

When it is back together start with the idle air bypass screw set to about two turns out. (Item "25.") It may have a cover as shown in your diagram. That cover is a bear to remove because you are not suppsed to be playing with it for EPA reasons. It was supposed to be factory set. You may have to take a dremel to that cover and do violence to it to remove it.

Then start you engine, idle a little high if you must, until it is running smooth. You shouldn't have to be above about 1200 RPM though. If you are something inside isn't right just yet. With the engine warm back off the idle screw until you have 850 to 900 RPM. Then lean out the mixture by backing out the idle air bypass screw a teeny bit at a time. Listen intently for a barely perceptable change in RPM. You can't hear it if you have had more than one beer, or if the stereo is on, or if your wife is talking, or your kid is screaming. As you lean the RPM should rise at first, and then peak, and then fall as you lean further. Set to peak rpm. This is called "lean to peak."

Now return to the idle speed screw and reset the idle to between 850 to 900 RPM. Then repeat the "lean to peak" with the idle air bypass screw. If this raises your RPM above 900 or so go back and reset the idle speed again, then lean to peak again. Usually you don't have to do the third time, but sometimes you do. But always in this order: Throttle plate idle speed screw first, then mix.

NOW everything is as it should be and as it was set from the factory.... but the engine is at peak idle rpm because it is as lean as it can be and still run properly. Because of new smog regs this is where the manufacturers mostly set the mix, but it isn't where old time tuners set the mix. You see a carb is mechanical and it isn't instantainous to respond when you punch the throttle, so if you start at max lean and punch the throttle, then for a moment you are too lean until the rest of the system catches up. Only a fraction of a second, but it can cause a hesitation. So old time tuners would go back to the idle air bypass screw and tweak it in 1/4 turn to set the mix a smidge to the rich side of peak. BUt now the idle might drop too low, so adjust the idle screw to smooth things out. THis is the ONLY time you EVER do the mixture first and then the throttle plate. Whether or not you do this is up to you.

You probably won't get the cover off the carb without a hand held impact screw driver the first time you disassemble it. Don't bugger the screws trying. After the first time you don't need the impact driver again.

Peter
 

fishrdan

Admiral
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
6,989
Re: Help me get newer 3.0 running right!!!

Starting and idling.... Exactly what's it doing that's not right? What is your starting procedure? 3.0's are not the smoothest idling engine, so don't expect it to run like a sewing machine at idle.

What should I order for new parts, if any?

A "carb kit" will contain most of the parts you'll need for rebuilding the carb; gaskets, seals, accelerator pump, etc. An aftermarket kit is probably available here at iboats, but I'd spend the extra few bucks to get an OEM Mercruiser/Quicksilver kit.

There's most likely a carb rebuild tutorial up in the stickies, to help with rebuilding the carb.
 

Mule Laker

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Messages
140
Re: Help me get newer 3.0 running right!!!

Thanks Dan and Peter.


Spoke to my local marine shop and he said they have gaskets in stock for this carb. Also said I could remove the top half only and clean it.

I was wondering too if I just removed the mixture screw and fired carb cleaner in there if it would come out anywhere in the venturi or do anything beneficial??? Just a thought.

Any other tips/tricks appreciated.
 

PeterB26

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
95
Re: Help me get newer 3.0 running right!!!

You could try taking the top off the carb in place, but honestly it isn't hard to unbolt it from the manifold and get it on a bench where you can work on it properly. You are sort of nuts to try to do it in situ. To get the throttle links to disconnect you kind of have to do this puzzle move with the top. Do-able in place, I suppose, but easier on the bench. Also take a picture and notes on how the links go together before you take them apart. You might think you will remember, but it can be confusing and easy to get wrong. One of my favorite tricks is to put a bit of tape on one end of one link to mark where it goes and which way around, that at least gets me off on the right foot and the rest sort of falls into place.

My only piece of advice on work to do before removing the carb is to start the cover screws with the carb still on the manifold because you may have to use an impact screwdriver. You don't want to do that on the bench because the throttle butterflies stick out a bit from under the carb body and you could damage them or the shafts the are on. Then you are looking at a new carb.

Sierra makes a very complete rebuild kit. I wouldn't start the job without one in hand. Just a few gaskets may be all you use out of the kit, but when you are in there and find you need to replace that little fiber washer that seals on top of that part "21" or some other teensy bit like the part that goes in the needle and seat assembly that is going to fall out on the ground when you take the top off, or the check ball in the bottom of the accelerator pump well that likes to roll away, it is very comforting to know you have them on hand.

Sierra 18-7098

Check that this is the right kit for your carbs, but I'm pretty sure it is.

The idle circuit is in the venturi assembly thing and also has passages in that part of the carb body as well. You maybe could get the "21" part off and blow some carb cleaner through it, but you would still have to get to the teensy holes in the carb body, specifically the ones that come out underneath the throttle butterfly, and blow them out. No way will you get those cleaned out easily in place. And then if this is the first time the carb has been apart you have to clean up all those sealing surfaces. And do so without dropping bits of old gasket into other important places. Bottom line, don't try to take a shortcut, especially this one because it won't get the job done right and it won't save you much work or time, but it could leave you with a much bigger mess.

When you blow carb cleaner through the various parts be sure to wear saftey glasses or goggles because stuff comes out in unexpected places. The nature of the thing. Lots of passages, and even if you think you know where they go often they are clogged so carb cleaner shoots out in unexpected directions. Ask me how I know....

It will definately NOT clean out the fuel passages by removing the idle air bypass screw and shooting cleaner through that part. That passage is all about air and doesn't connect to the fuel passages.... and frankly isn't that teeny and likley isn't clogged. That "mixture" screw as you refered to it only effects the mixture at idle. The mixture at other throttle settings is set by the main jets, and the idle air bypass screw would have almost no effect on mixture while running at any throttle setting other than idle.

Any instructions that tell you how to work on any carb always clearly emphsize that you should NEVER poke wires or other things into the passages. Usually good advice, but sometimes you just have to. In that case take a few inches of electrical wire like lamp cord. Strip off all the insulation so you have a bundle of very fine copper wires. Take ONE single copper wire strand out of the bundle about the thickness of a single human hair or less.... and put a piece of tape on one end so you have a way to keep track of it. This is now a relatively safe probe to go poking about with, but you didn't hear it from me... if you use a big hunk of wire or a big fat strand or a drill bit or someting and you f--k up your carburator..... tough darts... You have been warned of the risks. Usually stubborn clogs will succumb with a soaking in carb cleaner and some time. Sometimes overnight.

Carb cleaner will make you high as a kite if you are not using it in a well ventilated area. And it will cause liver and brain damage too. Take it seriously and work outside or in your garage with the door open or whatever.

I like to spread out a white terry towel and lay out my parts on that. It makes them easier to see and they don't tend to roll away.

The screws in the cover are different lengths in different holes, and it matters that you get them back to the right spots. Pay attnetion and have a system for taking notes or remembering which one goes where.

Lastly I forgot to mention one other helpful hint: When listening to the engine for the "lean to peak" RPM change I try to concentrate on something other than the exhaust note. The loud "bubba bubba bubba...." of the exhaust note at idle changes very little, but if you ignore the exhaust note and focus your attention on the whirring noise of a bearing or belt or accessory like the alternator you will be able to hear the very subtle changes in RPM. Unless your wife is behind you chattering on her cell phone. Seriously, you have to concentrate, but if you do you will hear the RPM change. Once you "get it" the first time it will be forever easy in the future.

Peter
 

Mule Laker

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Messages
140
Re: Help me get newer 3.0 running right!!!

My only piece of advice on work to do before removing the carb is to start the cover screws with the carb still on the manifold because you may have to use an impact screwdriver. You don't want to do that on the bench because the throttle butterflies stick out a bit from under the carb body and you could damage them or the shafts the are on. Then you are looking at a new carb.

Sierra makes a very complete rebuild kit. I wouldn't start the job without one in hand. Just a few gaskets may be all you use out of the kit, but when you are in there and find you need to replace that little fiber washer that seals on top of that part "21" or some other teensy bit like the part that goes in the needle and seat assembly that is going to fall out on the ground when you take the top off, or the check ball in the bottom of the accelerator pump well that likes to roll away, it is very comforting to know you have them on hand.

Sierra 18-7098

Check that this is the right kit for your carbs, but I'm pretty sure it is.

The idle circuit is in the venturi assembly thing and also has passages in that part of the carb body as well. You maybe could get the "21" part off and blow some carb cleaner through it, but you would still have to get to the teensy holes in the carb body, specifically the ones that come out underneath the throttle butterfly, and blow them out. No way will you get those cleaned out easily in place. And then if this is the first time the carb has been apart you have to clean up all those sealing surfaces. And do so without dropping bits of old gasket into other important places. Bottom line, don't try to take a shortcut, especially this one because it won't get the job done right and it won't save you much work or time, but it could leave you with a much bigger mess.

When you blow carb cleaner through the various parts be sure to wear saftey glasses or goggles because stuff comes out in unexpected places. The nature of the thing. Lots of passages, and even if you think you know where they go often they are clogged so carb cleaner shoots out in unexpected directions. Ask me how I know....

It will definately NOT clean out the fuel passages by removing the idle air bypass screw and shooting cleaner through that part. That passage is all about air and doesn't connect to the fuel passages.... and frankly isn't that teeny and likley isn't clogged. That "mixture" screw as you refered to it only effects the mixture at idle. The mixture at other throttle settings is set by the main jets, and the idle air bypass screw would have almost no effect on mixture while running at any throttle setting other than idle.

Any instructions that tell you how to work on any carb always clearly emphsize that you should NEVER poke wires or other things into the passages. Usually good advice, but sometimes you just have to. In that case take a few inches of electrical wire like lamp cord. Strip off all the insulation so you have a bundle of very fine copper wires. Take ONE single copper wire strand out of the bundle about the thickness of a single human hair or less.... and put a piece of tape on one end so you have a way to keep track of it. This is now a relatively safe probe to go poking about with, but you didn't hear it from me... if you use a big hunk of wire or a big fat strand or a drill bit or someting and you f--k up your carburator..... tough darts... You have been warned of the risks. Usually stubborn clogs will succumb with a soaking in carb cleaner and some time. Sometimes overnight.

Carb cleaner will make you high as a kite if you are not using it in a well ventilated area. And it will cause liver and brain damage too. Take it seriously and work outside or in your garage with the door open or whatever.



Peter



It will definately NOT clean out the fuel passages by removing the idle air bypass screw and shooting cleaner through that part. That passage is all about air and doesn't connect to the fuel passages.... and frankly isn't that teeny and likley isn't clogged. That "mixture" screw as you refered to it only effects the mixture at idle. The mixture at other throttle settings is set by the main jets, and the idle air bypass screw would have almost no effect on mixture while running at any throttle setting other than idle.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here. The mixture screw is a fuel screw, not an air screw. If it were air then turning out would lean the mixture, turning in would be richer. A "fuel" screw would be the opposite.


Any instructions that tell you how to work on any carb always clearly emphsize that you should NEVER poke wires or other things into the passages.

Like I said, I've been working on carbs for twenty five years and I've never done that. If a passage is so clogged that carb cleaner and air won't clean it then it gets replaced. Usually you can place clogged pilot jets in a very small dish of carb cleaner, slosh them around every half hour or so for a few hours and them blow them out. They will be good as new.


My only piece of advice on work to do before removing the carb is to start the cover screws with the carb still on the manifold because you may have to use an impact screwdriver. You don't want to do that on the bench because the throttle butterflies stick out a bit from under the carb body and you could damage them or the shafts the are on. Then you are looking at a new carb.

Thanks!
 

smassey22180

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
210
Re: Help me get newer 3.0 running right!!!

I rebuilt my carb last weekend. The rebuild was super easy but I did have issues getting everything perfectly clean. Carb cleaner now does not work as well as it did 10 years ago. Dip also leaves lots of marks that would have looked new in the past. Looking back I wish I had dropped everything off at a machine shop for cleaning.
 

PeterB26

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
95
Re: Help me get newer 3.0 running right!!!

I think (not 100% sure) the missing ingredient in new carb cleaner is touluene (toluol.) This is available at most paint and hardware stores. It is also the basic ingedient of "Goof Off" which is available many places.

The air bypass screw I am talking about is item number 25 in the diagram you posted. It is a brass screw with a tapered point on the end. The other parts in the diagram also labled 25 make up a tin can cover over this screw to keep you from tampering with it. That cover is a b--ch to get off. I use a Dremel with an abrasive wheel with the carb on the bench. All attempts to undo it with a screwdriver or small pry bar failed. Yours may not be there at all, or it might have already been removed.

Now that screw is the ONLY form of mixture adjustment on these carbs, and it only applies to idle, not high speed. What it does is bleed some air into the throat to mix with the fuel. The fuel gets past the mostly closed throttle butterflies through the teeny passages I previosly mentioned. With the carb off and the butterfly set to nearly closed look up from underneath and you will see the idle fuel holes. When you turn the carb over if the top is off watch out for dropping parts from the needle and seat and the accelerator pump well.

The reason it causes the motor to speed up when you back it out is because you are deliberately startng with the mix a littel too rich for perfectly efficient combustion. Then backing the screw out adds more air/ leans the mix/ and up to a point increases the RPM.... if you go a little too far and a little too lean the RPM drop off again. This is known as "lean to peak" mentioned earlier.

The idle air bypass screw does not meter fuel. It meters air. For high speed circuits the mix is set by the size of the main jet. The only way to alter that mix is to buy another size jet.

I don't know what motorcycle carbs you have rebuilt, but many of them work differently. In some there is a long tapered needle that goes into a precision matched cylinder in the bottom of the carb. As you open the throttle the needle is drawn upward and adds more fuel. In these types of carbs (SU found on English sports cars and Mikuni found on many motorcycles) the mixture adjustment moves the vertical height of the matched cylinder slighlty with respect to the location of the metering needle and thereby adds more fuel... and this is across the whole RPM range. So it is a true mixture screw. This is not one of those carbs. In this carb (Rochester 2 barrel) the mix is set by the main jet for running and is 100% non adjustable, and idle mix is tweaked by adjusting the air bypass when at idle. Actually this system is more common than the SU or Mikuni.

Peter
 

Mule Laker

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Messages
140
Re: Help me get newer 3.0 running right!!!

Mercury Quicksilver 3310-810929004 - Carburetor Gasket Set @ MarineEngine.com

So I got the above gasket set from my local Mercury dealer. The largest gasket (the one between the halves) is different from the original. It's not cut out above the float but maybe that won't matter. I'll just install the gasket and then the float.

As far as that air screw goes, mine was never covered. It just requires a factory tool. The carbs with sealed mixture screws that I've worked on have been sealed with brass plugs from the factory. Those can be drilled with a small bit and then a sheet metal screw and vise grip will easily remove the plug.
 
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