How much motor will this boat need?

[airshot]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

One thing to keep in mind....do you want to keep a motor that you are confident with (40 hp) or buy another that you know nothing about? If a used one has problems, alot of bucks can be added to a good buy.

 

[no_money]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

I agree, I trust my 40hp, but my thought was that it would be a lot neater install if I made use of the holes already drilled in the transom rather than having to fill them in. I did consider trying to find four countersunk head bolts to fill the holes in the plate with, but they need to be 1/2" with a flat countersunk head so I could make the factory plate a flush fit. I'd back it up with some 5200 sealer as well.
That way if I decide down the road I want more motor all I need to do is swap back to the original SS bolts and hang an OMC motor on it.

 

[vintageglass]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

I owned one of those a number of years ago, it came with a vintage 50hp Chrysler that did just fine with even four adults in the boat. Those things are light and basically flat bottomed so they plane out fast.
I figure mine never left the dock with less than at least a thousand pounds aboard. I figure myself at 280lbs, the girlfriend at about 120 or so and a another couple at about the same weights. I had a single 12 gallon tank mounted in the bow with a fuel line running back down the left side. Add in a pair of coolers full of ice, fishing tackle, and on occasion some diving gear and it was fully loaded. It wasn't fast but did just fine. It went fast enough is all I can say. The factory speedometer may or may not have been accurate, it generally read about 25-27mph loaded. The motor was a 1966 or 67 model. The boat looked identical to the boat in the brochure for that year. Mine came on a vintage bright yellow Gator trailer which I sold and replaced with a roller trailer like the one in the ad on CL above.

Mine never saw a day where it wasn't outdoors. It spent its whole life outside, with a tarp over it at best during the winter and it never showed any signs of rot. The deck was solid glass, the seats on mine attached with well nuts. Mine had the original seats up to about a year before I sold it when one collapsed under the weight of a larger passenger in rough water. I replaced them with a pair aluminum pedestals mounted to a larger sheet of 3/4" plywood to distribute the weight. They worked well but I lost two seating positions. If you take one of those inspection cameras on a stick you can look into the lower bilge hole and see how those were built, the lower hull is all glass molded over a form and bonded together. Even the top part of those boats is all bonded as one piece. Unlike some boats that can leak around the rub rail those cannot.
I bought mine for $950 in 1985, the motor ran but needed a lot of work, I put another $500 into the motor to get it running and running right, the trailer was ok but old and cumbersome to load, so I bought a new Load Rite roller trailer for $1650 in 1994.
I also had to replace the steering when I first got mine, the helm was seized the cables were all but rotted away. I went with a complete Teleflex kit for $150 or so. The boat had its original seats but they needed new upholstery which cost me $1100 before the boat ever hit the water. In hindsight, new seats would have been cheaper but I liked the look of the original seats. They worked but they took up a lot of space.
With all I spent to get mine up and running the way I wanted it back then, in today's money, I guess $1000 don't sound all that bad figuring that even if you bought all you needed new, plus the motor you already own, its still an ok deal in my book. Figure a pair of seats at about $400 or so, plus a new trailer at maybe $2200 or so, your still on the water for less than the cost of anything out there and you know what you've got.
With that said, times are tough and there's a ton of good used trailers cheap, and used seats may only be one free junk boat away.
I just picked up a 16' Renken for free with a broken transom that sits on a 4 year old Sea Lion roller trailer with two brand new back to back seats, a Hummingbird fish finder, and a 70hp Evinrude with bad compression which I sold the lower unit from already for $600 on CL.
If its the boat that you like and it suits your needs, and its that solid, by all means don't let anyone talk you out of it. Good, solid old boats are hard to come buy these days and getting harder and harder to find.

 

[JimS123]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

I'm a little late in replying, but for what its worth....

That's a fine boat, and if its in excellent shape it would be a good buy. Back in the day, equipped with a 40 it would have been the cat's behind. Now, if you're like most of the gurus today that need speed speed and speed you won't be satisfied.

That vintage MFG, regardless of what you may have "heard", were problematic. So, look it over closely before you buy it.

Forget the foil, whaletail, etc. Although I think they are better than sliced bread for many applications, (and I have them on 3 of my family boats) in that era the MFG hulls were well designed and didn't need one. The fins were invented in an era where hull design necessited the invention.

 

[vintageglass]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

I've never heard of any of the older MFG boats being 'Problematic". I've owned dozens of them from that era.
The only wood in the hulls built between 1963 and 1967 was the transom core, and most were so well encased in glass that they survived even years of outdoor storage so long as the thing wasn't submerged.

I've cut apart several of those, including a 1967 Westfield parts hull I had. The Niagara, Westfield, Edinboro and Seaway were all built using molded fiberglass stringers with a bonded all fiberglass floor. Their means of flotation was the trapped airspace below the floor. Later models often had foam up under the gunwales and fore deck.
My experience with MFG is limited to the lapstrake style hulls in these years, the CV series used more wood and were the beginning of the less desirable models to come.
I've rebuilt a few MFG transoms over the years. The Edinboro and Westfield models were curved transoms, thus the special plate you see on that one. It flattens the transom where the outboard mounts. In my 30 plus years around boats I've only run across two of those still on the boat. Most were either corroded away or thrown away.
Most of the original Westfield models I've come across over the years had either an original 50hp twin cylinder or a 55hp OMC electric shift three cylinder. Considering the change in how outboards are rated, its likely that your 40hp has the same or even more hp than what those old motors had. In general, from what I've seen, Tohatsu two strokes were under rated a bit.
If it were mine, I'd run the Tohatsu 40 till I came across a deal on something newer, maybe a four stroke 50hp or so.
You won't find many of those in that condition if its as clean as you say. Most have been abused or modified over the years or left for dead.

I found the following ad online: Its from January of 1967, even the ad describes that boat as being "- with full fiberglass construction throughout in floors, stringers, hull and deck".

 

[JimS123]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

The only wood in the hulls built between 1963 and 1967 was the transom core, and most were so well encased in glass that they survived even years of outdoor storage so long as the thing wasn't submerged.

I recall seeing the rotten wood stringers on an MFG in 1968. It was a nominally 16' OB. I am so sure of the date because it was the year I bought my first new outboard and that dealer went out of business right after.

Could that boat have been made before 1963?

 

[vintageglass]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

I believe the Cathedral Vee hulls and several non lapstrake style hulls used wood stringers beginning in 1967, by 1968 the Westfield and Edinboro had both changed to the newer hull construction too. No doubt cost was the issue. The all glass boats were a bargain. I've cut apart a few, boats that either were crushed by trees, destroyed in auto accidents, or had rotted transoms that failed beyond repair.
I've cut open a boat identical to the one the OP is looking at, the lower hull will have fiberglass stringers, the one I cut up had foam in the bow section and foam molded in between the stringers. The only wood was the transom core. Generally, lapstrake boats with removable splash trays were those built with all glass hulls. I've cut up a few trihull from that era and all were wood floor and stringers covered in glass mat. Those I'd stay away from. The way the Niagara, Westfield, and Edinboro were built in those early years ensured the lower hull remained dry by the way the seats attached. The factory seats used rubber well nuts which sealed the holes through the floor and preserved the sealed lower hull as flotation. The boat I had had no foam, possibly an earlier model that year, mine had foam under the gunwales, in the bow, and under the rear corners. The placement of foam up high ensures the boat won't turn turtle if flooded. The double lower hull also gives an added layer of protection to this style hull in that it acts as a double bottom, the boat will remain afloat with the lower section completely flooded.

I've owned dozens of boats, dealt with boats this vintage and older for the past 30 or more years and there's nothing like those year MFG boats. Production of a hull like that would never happen in today's economy. MFG's vacuum molding process also made those boats lighter, it guaranteed the density and thickness of the hull and reduced the need for thick heavy hand laid fiberglass. Most MFG boats from this era rival similar aluminum boats in weight while being superior in hull design due to the attainable shape only possible in fiberglass.

The first MFG boats were glass lower hulls with wood structure and uppers, the second generation dropped the wood upper and used many small fiberglass ribs and no stringers, these boats had simple plywood floors. The next, or third generation are the best boats, such as the Westfield posted about here.

 

[mfgniagara]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

Thats a great boat, rock solid and has been stored inside since new.
I was the second owner of that boat a few years ago, a neighbor has it now and has it listed for sale on CL.
It came to me with a Tee Nee painted trailer and a running 60hp Evinrude three cylinder motor.
The original seats were missing the upholstery and padding, so I removed them and plugged the holes in the floor. I kept the trailer and original Evinrude tachometer and sold the boat for slightly less than what I paid. The original owner was from PA, the boat was used only in freshwater from what I was told, and by the looks of it, I believed him. It was stored under a lean too attached to a barn for 40 years, the last registration when I got it was 1977. I changed the title and registered the boat with the original intention of using it for crabbing but found a flat bottom skiff better suited for the task.
The boat needs nothing but new seats, a motor, and a good trailer. The trailer its on in the pic is mine and not for sale, I loaned it to the guy who bought the boat till he got his own. It was one I bought to use with that boat but I've got $1350 in it. Its not likely anyone would pay an additional $1400 on top of the cost of the hull so I'll keep it for another boat in the future.
When I bought that trailer I searched all over for a good one, ended up driving to western PA to find one that wasn't rusted. My only other option was to spend double that on a new one.

Currently I run a 1966 Edinboro, which is slightly larger than the Westfield, its my only MFG at the moment, it, like the Westfield is all glass other than the transom and I redid that with Nida Bond.

The only wood in those boats, (63 to 67 models), was the transom. Many are rotted out by now but that Westfield was rock solid. By the looks of the motor and the rest of the boat I doubt it ever saw the water much, let alone daylight outside of the barn it was in.

When I found it it was covered in an inch or field dust, the seat foam was rotted away and the seats were sagging and cracked from age. The vinyl top was off the boat, hanging on the wall, most likely never installed, but shrunk up too bad to use. I kept the top and made it fit another boat after replacing the vinyl top with canvas.

I'm not sure why the boat is for sale again, my understanding was that he was going to use it but he does own a good number of other boats, so my guess is he's thinning the herd a bit so to speak. Most of his boats are aluminum, the MFG is the odd one of the bunch over there.

 

[no_money]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

Well, I made an offer on that MFG but haven't heard back yet, I told the seller I'd go $500 cash for the hull as it sits.
He said he'd think about it and call me back, that was last Sat. I figured if he countered with even $600 or so I'd take it but I haven't heard anything yet.
He said he'd go $1000 cash on the spot and he'll rehang the original motor if I liked but I'm leery about electric shift and that one needs controls since he didn't have keys to the controls he had there.
He did have another boat there, all rigged up and ready to go that wasn't for sale with a brand new Mercury 4 stroke on it, so my guess was that he got a deal on a newer motor or complete boat and motor and is just running that one instead. Although its not near as nice as the MFG. The guy next door also has a garage full of old Mercury motors also for sale, they all look good but he knows nothing about them. He only wants $200 each for those but he's never had any of them running. Since the MFG is rigged for an OMC outboard, I'd have to seal up unused holes and drill new a few more new holes to run a Mercury, so that idea is out.
I sort of got the impression that maybe someone else was looking at the boat and may have offered him more. Time will tell I guess.

 

[Jdeagro]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

no - money;

Let's make the assumption that the hull is in good shape and the boat is not water logged.
Once on plane the 40 HP motor with the correct prop should push the boat at a reasonable speed - probably about 24 to 26 MPH. One more assumption - you do not load it down with 40 bags of sand

Getting on plane is not so much to do with HP as it is with boat hull design and balance. Lets say that a 70HP motor ( your Max) would do a better job of getting the boat on plane than your 40 HP. It will to some degree, but not as much as you would think. Here is why: The HP rating is based on the peak RPMs which is about 5500 RPMs. Your will be trying to get on plain at 2500 RPMs which means that the 70 HP is only half or 35 HP. The 40 HP motor will give you about 20 HP at 2500RPMs. You have a net gain of 15 HP, but you have also increased the transom weight to make the boat even more out of balance (stern heavy).

All of this is to make it easier to climb up the hill to get on plain. Lets look at this in another way, how about giving the boat an extended and adjustable hull, and eliminating the hill (high bow rise) upon acceleration. (install trim tabs) When you eliminate the hill, all of the HP is used to push the boat forward not up. Getting on plain will be a non issue.

I am sure that there are many who will not agree and recommend more HP or a lower pitch prop as the only solution, however in Europe where gas is $7 to $8 per gallon they go for the smaller motors.

Buy the boat based on the condition of the boat not on the HP of the motor you have.

 

[no_money]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

Something that makes me think that my 40hp will be fine is that years ago, as a kid, a neighbor used to take me fishing in his boat, a 1950's MFG which had a wood upper and interior, plus a wood transom. The boat was about 16'. His motor was an old green Johnson 25hp, manual start, rope and pulley steered. He carried a battery which would power the lights if we got caught out after dark.
That boat was old and not in the greatest of shape, I remember him rigging up a wood beam just ahead of the motor to reinforce the transom because the wood where the motor was clamped to was rotted. The boat also always seemed to have a good 5 or 6" of water in the stern being pumped out as needed. That boat got on plane fine, often with four or five of us on board, all sorts of tackle or crabbing gear. It actually did pretty good from what I remember. I even remember him pulling a skier behind that boat a few times, at least until what ever the rope was tied to got ripped out. I still have the motor from that boat, his nephew gave it to me when he passed years ago. Its as big and probably heavier then my 40hp Tohatsu though. I'd venture to guess that his old boat did about 25mph or so, or fast enough that seemed to buzz along fast enough on the river. I do remember coming home late a few times with a few too many baskets of crabs on board and that boat not being able to get on plane at all, even sometimes taking water over the bow heading back into the river on windy days.

If I get this boat, (The seller hasn't called or emailed me back yet), I don't suppose I'd ever load it down like we loaded down that boat years ago. In hindsight it was probably more dangerous than we thought, but it got the job done and we basically didn't know any better then and I'm sure that boat was all he could afford. I do remember it taking some pretty hard waves on occasion which felt like we hit a wall but it kept going. He finally pulled the motor off that thing when the keel, which was wood couldn't be patched any more. It got parked out back behind his garage until a tree branch fell on it in a storm about 35 years ago or so.
My experiences in that old boat is what made me look specifically for an old MFG.

One of my concerns with a bigger motor is weight on the stern. Since I'll be fishing off this boat, I don't want so much weight on the stern that when I stand at the splash well it takes on water over the transom. I fished off a buddies aluminum boat a few weeks ago that had that issue. If I stood too close to the rear of the boat the thing started dumping water into the splash well. That boat was an 18ft Starcraft. Since its a cuddy cabin both me and my buddy were both in the rear of the boat. I'm over 300lbs, he's close to 450lbs, plus a 120t cooler full of ice, a 50qt cooler full of ice and beer, two big tackle boxes, 8 rod and reels, an extra case or two of beer in the cabin, plus a 12 gallon gas tank under the splash tray, two batteries, and the weight of the 115hp Mercury outboard, the boat was probably maxed out. It got better as the tank emptied and we had all the coolers inside the cabin as far forward as we could get them. We also had two 6 gallon portable tanks up front as well. I have no doubt that if both me and him stood at the stern that boat would sink. (The boat isn't water logged, the floor and foam are brand new last fall in that boat). With me and him seated at the dashboard, the boat does great, it does 35 mph at top speed if we keep the weight off the stern.

With all of the above in mind I sort of think the Tohatsu will be fine. I'll just have to deal with sealing up the unused holes drilled for the Evinrude motor that was on it.
I would probably trade my Tohatsu for an similar Evinrude just to avoid having to fill those holes.
I plan on stopping by there to see if we can make a deal this weekend since I haven't heard back from the seller yet after my offer.

 

[no_money]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

I emailed the seller again, but got no reply, not even a counter offer after my first $500 offer.
At this point I guess I have to keep looking elsewhere but I doubt I'll find another one in that shape anytime soon.

 

[Sirmarsh]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

I emailed the seller again, but got no reply, not even a counter offer after my first $500 offer.
At this point I guess I have to keep looking elsewhere but I doubt I'll find another one in that shape anytime soon.

Today's your lucky day then I have one in way better shape then that junk for a lot less, and comes with a trailer and the 61' motor.

1961 LoneStar with matching LoneStar trailer. Gel coat has cracks on top, but other then that, its in great shape, no issues.

I live in STL.

1961 Lone Star Classic boat, in great shape. NO issues.