hydrolock & bent rod

[egldvrbags]

1995 4.3LX V6 SN 0F436164 Alpha 1

My shorestation aft end broke, leaving my boat doing a "wheelie" with the bow over 2 feet higher than the stern. Could have been for as long as 2 weeks. When I attempted to start it, it turned over twice but didn't start and then nothing. Charged the battery (thinking this was the issue), reattempted, finally got the engine to start but it now had a noticible clunking noise. Wrut Row!! Now I know what not to do.

Anyhow, after diagnosis and subsequent teardown by the local Merc dealer, I got water in #6 cylinder during the "wheelie" incident. It was hydrolocked and I bent the #6 rod trying to start it - live and learn.

The rod is twisted and bent - I saw it at the shop. They are going to save it for me and I'll post pix if anyone wants to see it.

I have a potential insurance claim.

The shop is going to send the block, etc, to a machine shop to get an estimate for rebuild. They are also going to give me a quote for a short or long block.

My concern is with a rebuild, if the force was great enough to bend and twist the rod, what else got bent during the process?? The mechanic said the starter bolts weren't bent as he's seen starters ripped off their mounts with this issue.

What else should I be concerned/asking about with a rebuild or remanufactured??

Thanks!

Dave

 

[achris]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

Dave,

If the rebuilder is told the reason for the rebuild, then he will check all the usual things that can happen in these cases. If the starter bolts weren't bent and the holes not damaged that's a good start. The only other thing I would look closely at is the ringgear and starter teeth.

Chris.............

 

[bjcsc]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

1995 4.3LX V6 SN 0F436164 Alpha 1
I have a potential insurance claim.

I doubt it. Most insurance, esp. for small boats, does not cover mechanical failure.

Tough break, good luck on the rebuild...

 

[egldvrbags]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

I doubt it. Most insurance, esp. for small boats, does not cover mechanical failure.

Tough break, good luck on the rebuild...

Agreed. So far, they've paid for the engine removal, disassembly of the motor, and to have a marine surveyor determine the cause.

 

[Lakester]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

Anyhow, after diagnosis and subsequent teardown by the local Merc dealer, I got water in #6 cylinder during the "wheelie" incident. It was hydrolocked and I bent the #6 rod trying to start it - live and learn.

The rod is twisted and bent - I saw it at the shop. They are going to save it for me and I'll post pix if anyone wants to see it.


My concern is with a rebuild, if the force was great enough to bend and twist the rod, what else got bent during the process??

hello,

yes!, i for one would like to see the bent and twisted rod.

ask to talk to the rebuilder if u rebuild vs a new short block. i would want to know how the crank's journals on those rods ran its... IN and OUT tolerances as to straightness. a crank is brutally strong... cast or forged. while the bearings will take most of the load in such an event, aside from any metal to metal contact of rod to piston and then... piston to bore etc... hydro locking enuff to bend a rod is a might big strain on the crank.

it is enuff to bend the crank!! in some circumstances.

so while they can grind it true... ck on its run out. also find out how good the crank grinder is. the journals all have to be indexed... and a variance of 8-10 degress off index can become a junk crank... even though impossible to see with naked eye.

a good rebuild shop will be happy to provide u with the regrind specs/run outs on the crank after the rework done. but u prob will have to ask for them. and do it on the front end. iykwim! i would also ask for the before specs, too.

sorry to hear it happened.

regards

lakester

 

[JCF350]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

I would replace the engine (long block) and be done with it, no worrying about about straightened or stressed parts.

 

[Lakester]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

I would replace the engine (long block) and be done with it, no worrying about about straightened or stressed parts.

hello,

well, no doubt that is one solution. however, engine rebuidling when a rod is busted is standard stuff. personally, i doubt it bent the crank. the main webs are SUPER strong and the rod journal is thick so RIGID, too. i also doubt it cracked. but the shop will ck it. the rod gave, and so no doubt block is fine...

may only need a new rod bearing, rod, may not even need a new piston or pin. but no doubt a rebalance will be required. but still... if the new rod is close enuff... button 'er up... and GO!

if it was mine, i would not hesitate to rebuild it at all. in fact, if u can pull engine down, may only need to take the rod and piston to shop, have them put in new rod, put it together and then... be on ur way...

the whole thing is what are the running clearances now? if any one part is in spec, and those that are not, are returned to spec or replaced and in spec... she'll run all day long.... til fuel i guess hits $6.50/gal.

however, for my 2-cents... u will prob be quoted for a full rebuild or long block. [ sigh ]

regards
lakester

 

[JCF350]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

hello,

well, no doubt that is one solution. however, engine rebuidling when a rod is busted is standard stuff. personally, i doubt it bent the crank. the main webs are SUPER strong and the rod journal is thick so RIGID, too. i also doubt it cracked. but the shop will ck it. the rod gave, and so no doubt block is fine...

If this was a rare/expensive engine I would agree.

however, for my 2-cents... u will prob be quoted for a full rebuild or long block. [ sigh ]

Yep

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

I am even surprised that the starter bent the rod. They shouldn't have that much power....

When I had the wonderful 460 in my boat (along with the less than wonderful King Kobra) I had a riser gasket failure.

I was leaking water back into open exhaust valves after EVERY shut-down. Every time I started it it would "hydrolock" on the first turn.

I, of course just kept trying to start it and after I tried 2 or 3 times it would finally start. It never once bent a rod. After I pulled the heads it appeared that it had been doing that for at least a year.

Isn't it more probable that the "bent" rod happened during a reversion event? (maybe the rods on a 4.3 are a little more floppy than 460 and a starter *could* bend them, it just seems unlikely............)

 

[egldvrbags]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

hello,

well, no doubt that is one solution. however, engine rebuidling when a rod is busted is standard stuff. personally, i doubt it bent the crank. the main webs are SUPER strong and the rod journal is thick so RIGID, too. i also doubt it cracked. but the shop will ck it. the rod gave, and so no doubt block is fine...

may only need a new rod bearing, rod, may not even need a new piston or pin. but no doubt a rebalance will be required. but still... if the new rod is close enuff... button 'er up... and GO!

if it was mine, i would not hesitate to rebuild it at all. in fact, if u can pull engine down, may only need to take the rod and piston to shop, have them put in new rod, put it together and then... be on ur way...

the whole thing is what are the running clearances now? if any one part is in spec, and those that are not, are returned to spec or replaced and in spec... she'll run all day long.... til fuel i guess hits $6.50/gal.

however, for my 2-cents... u will prob be quoted for a full rebuild or long block. [ sigh ]

regards
lakester

They actually gave me 3 options (the $ is the total cost out the door - this is the local certified Merc dealer w/ great reputation and a shiny showroom):

1. $2400 - just replace what's broken and associated parts: new rod, piston, rings, and associated bearings. Hone the affected cylinder, etc.

2. $3600 complete rebuild, upper and lower (1 yr warranty)

3. $4600 Long block (Jasper, 18mo warranty) - an advantage here is that it would give me 2 boating seasons under warranty.

I'm leaning toward option 2. While option 1 would fix the issue, the motor is already disassembled so why not rebuild it?

The boating season in WI is about 3 months. I don't want to be dealing w/ some other engine problem on July 4th.

My plans are to keep the boat as it meets our needs.

Thoughts??

Thanks in advance.

Dave

 

[DJ]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

You've got a dang good battery and starter.

I would go with option #2. Not a big fan of Jasper. Just my opinion and experience.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

You know there is another way....

Find a local machine shop that is reputable and have them build you an engine.

Doing it this way you get an engine from someone locally. If there's a problem you're probably not waiting on hold, for shipping, or talking to answering machines...you can just drop on over and stand on their desk........it's probably basically option #2.... Having the boat shop do it makes them somewhat responsible for the job.




regards,


Rick

 

[Lakester]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

They actually gave me 3 options
1. $2400 - just replace what's broken and associated parts: new rod, piston, rings, and associated bearings. Hone the affected cylinder, etc.

2. $3600 complete rebuild, upper and lower (1 yr warranty)

3. $4600 Long block (Jasper, 18mo warranty) - an advantage here is that it would give me 2 boating seasons under warranty.

The boating season in WI is about 3 months. I don't want to be dealing w/ some other engine problem on July 4th.

My plans are to keep the boat as it meets our needs.

Thoughts??

Dave

hello,

since u have stated ur Buying Motive... "to be able to be in the 3 mo window boating season"... that option may be best for you. but you should get new valve guides, or reamed to size, new pistons, rings etc. dont let them just bore u 030. have them measure the bores and always... always... bore to the minimum overbore required. if 010 does it, dont go 020. ask to see the valves and determine condition. will they surface head or put on grinder?

but sadly, in all actuality, this event... is little more than a $150 repair bill in the hands of an exp wrench. even #1 is, imo too high.

gasket set at about $75. 1 rod bearing at $3. rod at $12.50 and a wrist pin/piston only if wrist pin bent. and that can be measured. any shop can pull it and measure and replace it if OK. if a new piston reqd $25. tops and a ring for one hole... $12. tops, some sealant... add $125 for a good valve job since it is open.

but, if ur insurance will take care of it you are in great shape.

time is $! no doubt. i can do lots of mechanical work but i cant heliarc aluminum, i can weld all kinds of steel. so i have to take alum welding to a shop. i cant grind a crank, so i have to source it out. i cant deep clean a block so i have to source it out. i cant grind a valve so i have to source it out. so if u cant do the engine work and be confident about it u have to source it out.

it would be nice if the shop would help u out if no insurance to cover it. u said insurance paying for teardown... and if the marine shop wanted to they could fix u up for about $300 ur cost and then the insurance pay for the reassembly. imo, the engine dont need a full rebuild. but many engines get rebuilt for the fun of it, especially in the performance arenas...

and no doubt any shop will upsell the job if the customer is willing or can be talked into it... like u the shop owner needs to buy gas, his wife needs to shop... and he needs to pay business taxes, etc. so a bigger job helps do that better than a small job.

imo, u can be sure that if they just fix the broken parts they will put it together just fine. but i bet they will go from a to a if they dont see the BIG $$ in the deal...

ymmv but i doubt it.

well, u asked and these are my thots. in any event, an interesting story. sorry to hear it happened. may be smart to pull plugs on an engine that has had its geomety altered for a moment and is at risk of injesting water. a very cheap solution. let it p*** out the plug hole and then fire it up. or do it to be safe.

good luck in what ever decision u make. thanks for sharing ur tale. i found it quite interesting...

regards

lakester

 

[Lakester]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

1. $2400 - just replace what's broken and associated parts: new rod, piston, rings, and associated bearings. Hone the affected cylinder, etc.

hello,

well... my quote is: $1100.00; maybe $950.00

$300 to fix bad parts, 4 hrs to assemble engine $400 and 3 hours to put it in and start it up, etc... well, 4 $400

after all you said: all the engine needs is to be fixed.

so u may be able to hard copy all this and go and sit down with them and negotiatle the price down some... heck $200 is 200! but watch for the attitude. when it shows up... pick ur poisons.

remember the engine DOES NOT need to be fixed in areas that are still in spec. that is what precision measuring instruments are for. bore mikes, scales to weigh, etc.

and also remember V6's are notorious... did i say notorious??? for being out of balance on the rebuild. so, if it was mine i would definitely have it all BALANCED! a V6 is balanced at dif numbers (bob weights) than an inline or a V8.

i suspect the marine shop is in over their head as to the engine repair(s) and will shop it all outside. and take a cut and pass it on to you.

could be wrong, but that is how it sounds, and so u have to do what is best for you. but i think it would be smart to go talk with them, take a knowledgeable pal with u and look at the parts, and see just where they are out of spec.

and if u do do #1... be sure they dont over hone it. and ASK FOR and insist that they provide ring gaps on each hole, crank index #s, and... the piston to bore clearance on each hole which is measured at the skirt as a general rule of thumb...

but for any V6 rebuild since it will have same crank, same rods +1 new and new pistons... insist on a performance balance job. you will get a real smooth running engine.

'course, if the insurance co will cover u, then u are : In Like Flint!"



regards
lakester

 

[JCF350]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

They actually gave me 3 options (the $ is the total cost out the door - this is the local certified Merc dealer w/ great reputation and a shiny showroom):

1. $2400 - just replace what's broken and associated parts: new rod, piston, rings, and associated bearings. Hone the affected cylinder, etc.

2. $3600 complete rebuild, upper and lower (1 yr warranty)

3. $4600 Long block (Jasper, 18mo warranty) - an advantage here is that it would give me 2 boating seasons under warranty.

I'm leaning toward option 2. While option 1 would fix the issue, the motor is already disassembled so why not rebuild it?

The boating season in WI is about 3 months. I don't want to be dealing w/ some other engine problem on July 4th.

My plans are to keep the boat as it meets our needs.

Thoughts??

Thanks in advance.

Dave

"http://webapp.jasperengines.com/"

1995 with balance shaft $2671 exchange to start with.

 

[bjcsc]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

"http://webapp.jasperengines.com/"

1995 with balance shaft $2671 exchange to start with.

That would only get you an engine on a pallet...

If it was me, I'd buy a new Vortec GM marine base engine and swap the accessories over myself. You'd be done in one day...$2399 + freight...

 

[egldvrbags]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

That would only get you an engine on a pallet...

If it was me, I'd buy a new Vortec GM marine base engine and swap the accessories over myself. You'd be done in one day...$2399 + freight...

All,
Thanks for all the info. I'm waiting to see what participation the insurance company will have. The quotes are from the certified Merc dealer based on insurance requirements.

Dave

 

[JCF350]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

That would only get you an engine on a pallet...

If it was me, I'd buy a new Vortec GM marine base engine and swap the accessories over myself. You'd be done in one day...$2399 + freight...

He was quoted a Jasper reman through "their business". I assume you went here "http://www.ebasicpower.com/engines/base/262.htm"

Which would be a better way to go, BUT!!!

Will the dealer install a customer supplied engine? More than likely not, I never did install customer supplied parts (wouldn't even consider it).

 

[Coors]

Re: hydrolock & bent rod

Have the dealer order it, and bite the $400 add on