Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Boatist · Dec 4, 2002

Every motor I own is OMC, Johnson, or Evinrude and I still think they were the best. In local area had 4 major dealers, dealers with big show rooms, lots of tech, motor is stock to look at, Salesmen, and a big supply of parts. Today I go into the major dealers and they have no motors no borchures and the salesman is pushing Honda's, Yamaha's, or Mercury Outboards. If you ask about Johnson or Evinrude they have nothing to say. They do not even want to talk about Bombardier products. For the last three month I have checked the adds in the largest west coast fishing newspaper (Fish Sniffer). They Cover California, Oregon. I have not found one add for Bombardier, Johnson or Evinrude. This weeks had 11 adds for Honda, 11 for Mercury, and 6 for Yamaha but again none for Johnson or Evinrude. These four Major dealers still carry parts but not as many. Many thing they have had in the past you now have to order. How is it in other parts of the country. Has anyone found dealers with motors pushing Johnson and Evinrude?? I am in the market for a 15 to 25 HP 4 stroke Kicker to replace my good old 1975 15 HP Johnson 2 stroke and would like to buy a Evinrude. I will not buy from a manufacture that does not make there own motors. I just feel if they are buying their motor from someone else they are not 100 percent commited to making that the best motor and stocking parts down the road. I sure they cover the three year warranty but I expect it to last at least 25 years and that means must have a source for parts. I can not find a Suzuki dealer in town. I was planning on buying the OMC 15 HP 4 cycle the year they went under. It used the same lower end as my 1975 15 HP Johnson so I could still use my three props and maybe the spare parts I have. Does Bombardier look better in other locations?? Are they going to build they own 4 Stroke motors?? What does everyone think. Love to here some good news about Bombardier. My 15 need a new float and it will still run great but with the 2 stroke not allowed on some lakes now I really want to spend My money on a 4 Stroke. I also want to buy American but am not really not a fan of Mercury and if I bought today would buy a Yamaha. Boat Show season only about one month away. Please do not think I am bashing Bombardier as I really want to buy from them but to me just does not seen to make sence right now. May wait as long as one more year.

ghostrider · Dec 4, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Boatist, this is a very good question. I too have 1980 25hp evinrude that has performed flawlessly over the years. I too would purchase a Yamaha over the other motors on the market. If Bombadier would just focus on manufacturing one motor brand, they would find their brands have a strong following. looking forward to other opinions.

seahorse5 · Dec 4, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

In Brief: Bombardier signs 2,250 outboard engine dealer Sturtevant, Wisconsin, United States Bombardier Recreational Products has signed its 2,250 American dealership, Pompano Beach Marine Center in Pompano Beach, Florida, one year after manufacturing its first outboard engine, the company announced on Wednesday, November 6. ========================================== Bombardier Recreational Products revenues up 35 percent Bombardier Recreational Products saw revenues of US$745.1 million for the three months ended October 31, up 35 percent from US$550.0 million in the previous year, the company reported on Tuesday, November 19. The increase in revenues is mainly attributable to higher outboard engine activities and ATV sales, as well as increased international activities, said the company in a press release. Income before income taxes for the latest period was US$57.6 million, compared to US$44.9 million in the third quarter last year, Bombardier stated. During the third quarter, the division added eight models to the 2003 Johnson outboard engine line, according to the company.

Major Woods · Dec 4, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Bombardier has deep pockets and are in it for the long haul. It is going to take some time to straiten out the OMC mess. The company that I work for (I am a Quality Engineer) supplies parts to OMC now Bomb. Bomb reps have come in to do quality audits on us and the other suppliers, OMC never did this. Talking to the Bomb quality rep he mensioned that there have been some problems with the quality of the parts recieved from suppliers and this was one of the first things to straiten out and to inprove image and brand loyality. IMHO, once the problems, processes and quality is where Bomb expects it to be they will start with the major add campaigns.

plywoody · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

I have had Bomb products for years, including a SkiDoo snomobile. Their ROTAX engine is simply awesome. My experience is that this is a top flight professional company that demands it dealers be the same, so it is not totally surprising to me that there is some confusion in the transition process, but I would expect that to be short lived, and when the dust settles they will continue to sell and service a first rate product. The culture at Bomb would not allow them to do anything else. John

DJ · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Boatist, Bombi has a a different attitude than many other OEM's. That "attitude" has turned off some dealers and customers. The "attitude" is of perfection. They realize they have a long way to go, but they are DETERMINED to go the long haul the correct way. They want professional dealers that are willing to tow their Company line. That doesn't sit well with some. And, some will happilly go along. They (Bombi) have outstanding name recognition with the John/Rude brands. Perhaps some of the other OEM's realize this and are spending much more in advertising. Just perhaps. I'm not bashing any of the other brands, I've owned/operated just about everything. Bombi is on the way to manufacturing all of their own engines-whether it be Ficht or 4-stroke. They are tapping their expertise in the Rotax line. This however takes time. That is why they are currently rebadging some other brands. They're not the only ones doing this. I do believe, that they will be the only ones with their own unique engines, in the very near future.

Maximum Gravity · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

I do believe, that they will be the only ones with their own unique engines, in the very near future.

This can be a double edged sword - ask any of the SeaDoo dealers that have closed up in recent years. We still carry SeaDoo, and technologically, they are one of the most advanced PWC's available (185 hp supercharged 10 foot "boat" is awe-inspiring). However, there is a price too all ofthis technology. These things are running on the ragged edge of performance, and need extensive SPECIALIZED maintenance. The FICHT's are the same way, top technology, but not just anyone can work on them. One flaw that I have to point out of Bombardier's approach, they are electronic gadget freask. The PDA troubleshooting tool is probably one of the greatest inventions, but it doesn't do everything that the laptop does, and their MPEM programming tool can be irksome when updating (to say the least). From an electronic gadget percpective, guite honestly, IMO, they suck. I don't think we have gotten anything - EVER - that worked without having to call techsupport or send the item back to them. The PDA was an exception - out of the box it worked, but the update modules had some flaws. This has to be overcome. If they want to provide dealers with tools, gizmos and gadgets, they have to make sure they work. Don't get me started on their "fine array" of specialized tools to perform the most mudane tasks... special clamps with special pliers, special wrist pin bearings (500 individual bearings with no retainer - only a fine plastic container that snaps apart with the ->) -> -> special insertion tools, etc, etc....

Beaux · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

I think they will survive from a customer standpoint. Sounds like they have a few kinks in the dealer aspect though.

My next O/B will probably be a 4 stroke Bomb(OMC).... I have heard a lot of good things on this board and even though the 70 is a suzuki, I like dealing with the Bomb(OMC) dealers down here. I am looking forward to seeing the Bomb . made 4 strokes in the future. I may just wait....

Forktail · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Bombardier knows exactly what they are doing. Major Wood's post is a good example. They have shown to be leaders with just about any product. I don't think I can ever remember one of their divisions going under. They only expand (recently getting into the ATV and outboard segments) and get better. Very deep pockets here guys. I predict that Bombardier will soon be introducing technologies into the outboard segment that will surpass the competition. Bombardier is very particular about it's dealers. I believe they have the nads and $$ to weed out the dealers they don't want, and hand pick new ones. They know this puts a crunch on customers, but they also know that, in the long run, it will pay off. Not sure I agree with Max Grav's comments about Bombi being electronic gadget freaks, with tools that don't work. I can only speak from owning and working on a bazillion Bombi snowmobiles and watercraft. They are pull and go machines. Bulletproof. Very few repairs or maintenance problems. Factory support is excellent. The MPEM (multi purpose electronic module) reprogrammers work fine, and are quite slick. Sure there were some glitches to start with, but it was new technology and Bombardier took care of it. There's a reason for cageless wrist pin bearings in the Rotax engines too. Remember the problems Bombardier had with the caged bearings. Obviously they took care of that. Those special clamps are quality stuff that works. Technology doesn't always make things easy to work on. But it does make it more enjoyable to own. And gadgets are cool. I have a Ski-doo with an electronic push-button reverse that has no gears, no levers, and no weight. At the push of a button the engine actually momentarily stalls and reverses direction, thus turning the drivetrain in reverse. It works flawlessly. Amazing. Now the other manufacturers are copying. It also has a digital electronic security system. Basically an anti-theft device. No key. Just an electronic chip that is coded with the individual information to my particular snowmachine. This information is in all dealer networks to help track stolen machines or idiots trying to buy parts for them. It is impossible to operate the snowmachine without this chip (a plug you snap on). Ski-doo's are the last machines to get stolen. Other manufacturers are now copying. My Bombardier product also has a light-weight altitude compensation device that automatically adjusts for temperature and pressure to optimize performance in the mountains. Others now copy. Adjustable exhaust valves and adjustable primary and secondary clutches. All cool gadgets that work and work good. I can't wait to see what Bombardier does with outboards. I may have to switch from Yamaha!

johndezman · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

all technology is not necessarily "new". it may be borrowed from other applications. mercury outboards in the 50's had a direct reverse (powerhead reversing direction of rotation/ no gearbox) as you're describing.

clanton · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

GM has had the chip on the key security for at least 10 years. I missed the point about the cageless wrist pin bearings, OMC has used cageless wrist pin bearings for years, real simple cageless bearing gets more needle bearings,carrys more load. The injected cars adjust for altitude and temps, nothing new here. I also hope they sell thousands of engines.

DJ · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

I have to agree with Forktail. We have three, dare I say it: PWC's

in our family. One Sea Doo, one Yamaha, one Arctic Cat. The Yamaha is the newest (2001) and the Sea Doo is the oldest 1998. The Sea Doo is the only one that will run for an entire one week vacation. Matter of fact, it's never quit.

Forktail · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

johndezman, Sorry but the reverse system on some of the old merc outboards is far from the reverse system I described. It's certainly not "borrowed" technology. It is new technology that Bombardier created, and more importanty, they boldly introduced it to a big segment of recreational products where it never existed. Consumers benefited. The old merc reversing system (ironically called dock bangers) had two starters, each engaging and turning the flywheel in opposite directions. In order to go in reverse the outboard had to first be shut off. Then a toggle switch was flipped. Then the motor was again started (using the other starter), now running in the opposite direction. They had no neutral and were started either directly in forward or reverse. The Bombardier system (RER) electronically reverses the direction of the engine through the electronic module (MPEM) by retarding the ignition to a point where it idles so slow that the direction of the crankshaft rotation is reversed as the ignition is fired. The engine does not shut off. No starters. No toggles. No weight. No mechanical devices. No danger. Furthermore a unique helix was designed so the variable belt drive clutches could work in the opposite direction. My point was that Bombardier has a way of introducing technologies, new or otherwise, to segments where it never exisited before. Pioneers. I believe they will do this with outboards. I certainly hope so...we can only benefit.

Forktail · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

clanton, Yes, GM keys do have chips in them. But the Bombardier digital encoded security system (DESS) is not a key. It is a programmable and individualized chip which acts as not only as a anti-theft device, but doubles as a tether (safety device). Unlike GM's key, without the DESS the engine will still start and run, but the drive will not engage as it tells the MPEM to govern rpm increase. There is also a light on the dash indicating if the DESS system is functioning. No weight. No mechanical devices. And yes, injected cars do adjust for altitude and temperature. But they are 4-stroke engines with distributors and fuel injected. Bombardier has adopted technology that allows 2-strokes, which are much more sensative to altitude and temperature (air/fuel mixture), to do it....and with carburetors, not fuel injection! To top it off the device can fit in your hand and it weighs practically nothing. It works on a 450 lb sled 12,000 feet high, not a 3,000 lb car at 5,000 ft altitude. Again, my point is that these systems were never on any brand snowmobile until Bombardier came along. We had keys that got lost, fell out going down the trail, or broke in the cold. We had ignitions that could easily be hot-wired. Machines that were easily stolen which couldn't be tracked by any dealer. We changed carb jetting in the freezing cold trying to optimize our power as we climbed the mountain. I think you're going to see Bombardier do good things with outboards....at least I hope. I agree with you about the cageless bearings. They've been around a long time. I'm not sure why Max Gravity doesn't like them. I guess they can be a pain to install.

miloman · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Like to see all the positive comments over the summer I had the opportunity to test the 225 with the gentlemen from bombardier it was featured in bowerboating canada. I am on my 16th boat and certainly my 30th motor I fish over 30 tournaments a year so my insight is somewhat unique I talk to a lot of people After this year on the circuit and my experience that summer day there are 2 things I have learnt. Ole evinrude would be the proud. I have met and had dealing with all the major motor suppliers save evinrude ( because of the uncertanity) I can say this the gentleman Dave was with out a doubt one of the most knowledgabe outboard guys I have ever met his passion for the quality is about as good as it gets and I think that the evlolution of johnston evinrude is and will be one of those greats for outboards. I have never seen a group of people 110% commited to the quality of a product. So go out buy thier product I dont work for them nor am I sponsored by them (although I am being courted by the competitor) the irony is that at this point I am on the verge of buying thier product as opposed to a deal with the comp just because of the outstanding product and group of guys

Boatist · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Seahorse Great numbers, I dont see how but as the dealears here have nothing to sell. Maybe If I walked in and said I want that motor sight unseen they would order it. You say durning the third quarter they added 8 new motors to the Johnson line. Any idea what they are. Is this the Suzuki 4 strokes?? I will check their web site again. Major Woods Is Bombardier still makeing OMC replacement parts?? If they continue to make part for my 1980 OMC it is a BIG PLUS with me and will win me over. Djohns19 You say Bombardier is on the way to making their own 4 Strokes. Where did you get that info. I want to buy a 4 stroke 15 to 20 HP Kicker but am not interested in the Suzuki built engine. I just have to know I can get parts 20 years down the road. Hard to fine Suzuki parts now. I always take care of my engines and keep them forever. For that reason intial cost is not my main consern, but quality is and all I am hereing is Bombardier = Quality. If your going to keep a engine for 25 years and few extra bucks at the start is ok, big bucks every year to keep it going, or can't find the part is not. MY DREAM ENGINE is 15 to 25 HP 4 STROKE EFI ELECTRIC START LONG SHAFT with a GOOD ALTERNATOR and light enough to run on a LIFT BRACKET. I know, but I can DREAM. ALL good news but one question I did not see a responce to is: In other part of the US are there Dealears with motors in the store where you can go see and buy off the shelf. I did See a add that listed Evinrude, Cobra, Johnson on page 83 of Trailer Boat. Also page 48 a boat with a 175HP Evinrude. That more than I have seen in 3 month of the largesr west coast fishing newspaper. Thanks all for the great responces, I feel a lot better about Bombardier already.

DJ · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Boatist, I, sort of, have that on some "inside" information. The Suzuki built engines are great products, however, that relationship is not in the long range plans of Bombi. They (Bombi) tend to be a very vertically integrated company. They have vast resources, not only in technology, but also financially. Will they continue to support anything they've sold? Absolutely. They also understand the importance of past product support, read parts. Many parts are being "looked at" and many are being re-engineered and new suppliers being sought. The pipeline will refill.

Major Woods · Dec 5, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Boatist Replacement parts are still being made. I see no indication of Bomb dropping parts business.

Maximum Gravity · Dec 6, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Not only is Bombardier continuing to mfg older OMC parts, there is even rumor of a stern-drive revamp in the works.... Forktail, Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that these innovations aren't for the betterment of their products, the industry as a whole, or 2 stroke-technology in general. All,I am saying (and this was my original point) the next generation of all these Bombardier advancements are going to come at a cost. The average Joe, IS NOT going to be able to work on their equipment themselves. And from a dealers perspective, IT WILL be expensive to train employees, purchase special equiment, and dedicate certain specialized resources to mainting these type of vehicles. This is happening already. We have close to 25 full time techs on staff. Out of those 25, 2 are dedicated full time to SeaDoo's only. Others can pitch in for basic maintenance and service, but 2 for major diagnostics and repairs. 3 Specialized for I/O work, one specifically for OMC, Yamaha and Volvo's, the others for Mercruiser. Then we have 2 main techs dedicated to the new DI series for Mercury/Yamaha, and a third for the Fichts. This begins spreading dealer resources thin. As can be seen by this entire board, not everyone can diagnose the new equipment - even with the computers. This cost obviously gets translated down to the customer The point about the special tools is that if someone wants to do any kind of basic maintenance, they are going to have to have about $3000 in specialized tools. The service manual is already set up this way. About the first 25 pages of an OEM service manual for SeaDoo is special tools. The entire remainder of the manual goes through making refernce to those tools and how to use them to perform one off functions they were designed for (like replacing clamps). Granted automobiles work this way currently, but look at the volume of car engines/mechanics to boat mechanics. The customer cost per/hour ratio is not proportional between automotive techs and marine techs. As for the electronic gadgets, I am not refering to the implementations on the vehicles, I am refering to the Dealers diagnostic tools. The MPEM programmer is a great example. Although it works (I won't go into the details of the hour and half long conversation I had with three seperate tech-support reps at Bombardier to just enter the unlock code - it was an error on their end, and they couldn't resolve the conflict) it is limited in scope to non-DI machines. Any DI's must be programmed trough the laptop software, and can't be programmed by the MPEM tool. YES - this is a superior method, but it isn't consitant. With the OMC/BMC technology engines, there are 4 main programs to diagnose the motors. There is an FFI program that runs on PDA, or laptop - in windows mode (certain limited mapping functionality of the PDA). Then there is a 4-stroke program for pre-1999 models, and a seperate one for 99-2003 models, which work on the laptop only, in DOS mode ONLY, now they have just released a post 2003 four-stroke software (which I believe will work in Windows). For me, this is not a problem. However, trying to explain to a tech that barely knows how to turn a computer on (let alone in DOS mode) how this stuff all works together, is a whole differnt ball of wax. This is what I mean by needing to simplify and make more functional gadgetry that works from the start.

NOSLEEP · Dec 6, 2002

Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

excellent information thanx!

Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

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