Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

miloman

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Russell good to hear that you know your stuff I agree with the majority of your points This is confirmation that bombardier is committed to a reputable dealer network afterall as the components become more complicated the service staff must have the knowledge to service these components. It makes sense as to why their product is not in every nook and cranny corner store
 

Boatist

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Djohns19<br />Thanks for the inside information. Do you know of any time frame for the Bombardier 4 strokes??<br />Do you think they will start with the OMC four strokes and improve on them??<br />Bombardier/Suzuki may be the best motor out there but for me it takes a few years to prove that. If Suzuki got sued by some idiot who got run over by a boat with a suzuki motor and decided to no longer sell motors in the USA. How long before you would have trouble getting parts for their motors??<br />After a motor has been around for a while and they have sold tons of them like a 15 HP Johnson/Evinrude then they sell enough parts that dealers stock the parts and they make money, the boater is happy because he got part at a good price and did not have to order and wait 30 days to get it. If a new motor is only sold for a couple of years then pulled off the market no one stocks parts for it because they do not sell enough to make money. Good example would be the Yamaha Sterndrives.<br />One thing I think Bombardier is poor at is their Web site. They say they have complete spec on line but I can not pull up any specs. I looked at the Bombardier/Suzuki 15HP 4 stroke at last years San Francisco boat show. The motor looks smaller and lighter than the 1999 OMC 15HP 4 stroke but I do not think it even had a oil filter. I have not tried internet explorer but does not work with netscape. Types of thing I want to see before buying a kicker is Weight, Alternator output, types of motor protection (overheat, low oil, over rev, ect) but I see none of that. Thanks again for the info. Any Idea when they may anounce their 4 stroke engines. Probably will not until ready to sell as would kill Suzuki sells.
 
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DJ

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Boatist,<br /><br />From what I heard, we're looking at '05' and beyond.<br /><br />Max. Gravity, had some very good points. Technology comes with a price. Very few of us work on our own automobiles any more.<br /><br />I believe, that gear heads like us will still be able to do many things, such as: L/U fluid change, water pumps, filters, etc. I also believe that the engines will be much more reliable. Automobiles sure are. Just a little frustrating when they don't work.<br /> :confused:
 

Boatist

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

I just got home from the first boat show here in Sacramento and sad to say Bombardier almost not at the show. One dealer had a 50 HP Johnson on the back of a Lund fishing boat. Same dealer also had a 15 HP on a motor rack. I ask him about the 15hp motor and his response was last two motors he has left. He went on to say he was the number one Evinrude/Johnson dealer in area. He then said Bombardier puting too much pressure on him and he may never order another motor. He is not Happy with Bombardier. Also made a point to check two of the other dealers that were major Johnson / Evinrude dealers and neither has a single engine but still sell parts and do service. Could not find the 4th big dealer at show.<br />Please someone tell me if other parts of the country are Selling Bombardier outboards.<br />I will check at the San Francisco Boat show at the Cow palace but this year show not until April 13 or tax time.<br />Are dealers selling BOMBARDIER OUTBOARDS at boat show in other parts of the country?????
 
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DJ

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Boatist,<br /><br />The displays at boat shows are almost entirely dealer supported with some (read-very little) factory support. Some of the HUGE shows have factory displays.<br /><br />Bombardier is playing tough with dealers. They are betting the farm on their capapbility to produce a world class line of engines. They are not going to allow dealers to sell/service these engines that are either; a. not qualified. b. unwilling to invest in the future by training technicians.<br /><br />This breeds discontent among dealers. The auto. industry went through these growing pains about 10-15 years ago.<br /><br />The marine industry is considerably smaller and the evolution will take time.
 

miloman

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

As I have said in the past bombarider's product line is continuing to evolve the rumer of a stern drive is off the mark no plans for years if at all. They are working hard on lower hp di so thier line will improve lots. Mercury is the one to be concerned with they have admitted defeat on the optimax nad have nothing serious in play. Some 90 and 115 di products and the rumered 254 stroke. buts thats it. All you have to do is look at the warrenty that bombardier is offering and that will tell you everything
 

totalivewire

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

After Johnson takes over the boat motor industry, do you think that will drive down motor prices from competiters? Correct me if im wrong but boat motors and parts are OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive. Demand is a big part of sky rocketing prices, not everyone NEEDS a boat but they still need to make money worth keeping a business. But I have no doubt that cheaper prices would make ALOT of would-be boat owners, boaters. What I figure that the competiters are doing is milking the boat motor industry with everthing they've got while Johnson is going thru changes. Johnson will come back huge, but will this allow others to join us in the waters?
 

Forktail

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

totalivewire, you make it sound like there's a monopoly on outboards, and Johnson (Bombardier) is being taken advantage of because of their position in the market. :confused: <br /><br />First, I think it will be a while before Johnson "takes over the boat motor industry". The competition is stiff, the market is fussy and demanding.<br /><br />Secondly, outboard manufacturers are in business to make money...as much as they can. That's what they do. Providing you a product is only the end result of making money.<br /><br />And the outboard market isn't strickly price driven. It seems to be product driven. Many outboard buyers prefer to buy based on a dependable and reliable product rather than the cost of the product. In other words, many boaters would rather spend more for an outboard that will give them years of safe, reliable, no-fuss operation, than to spend money on a bargain that leaves them frustrated. Anyone who's ever been stranded 50 miles from home in a frothy sea because their bargain outboard failed knows what I mean. When that happens you'll wish you spent whatever it took to have the best...or wished you didn't get into boating until you could afford the best.<br /><br />The key is value. A good product at a good price. I think Bombardier can fill this need. At least they do with their other products.<br /><br />Yes, outboards do seem outrageously expensive. But so are 4-wheelers, snowmobiles, airplanes, autos, and RV's. Although I must admit it is impressive that 300 hp can be packed into a little removable package and hung off the back of your boat...and actually work very well.<br /><br />IMO, the only thing that will drive down outboard prices is the lack of demand and the inability of the consumer to afford. I suppose "cheaping" up the product could also cause lower pricing. But the market, the EPA, and the manufacturers themselves don't seem to be interested here. I know I'm not. It would cause technology to stand still. Sure, cheaper outboards might make a lot of would-be boat owners boaters, but that's not the American way. Otherwise people living in apartments would be living in mansions and people driving Kia's would be driving BMW's. For the most part boating is a recreation. <br /><br />Bombardier will bring Johnyrude back strong, but it won't be cheap for anyone. I think the days of Ford's model A are over. Just my opinion. :)
 

Boatist

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Djohns19<br />Yes you are right this was not a boat show any of the factory rep came to. Actually this was the International Sprotsmans Expo. All the Factory reps usually come to the San Francisco boat show but for some reason they canceled the normal show in January and is now going to be a shorter show in april. Still I like to buy American built products when I can and have never been a fan of Mercury. Even though Bombardier is not a US company the product is still made here. I am just comserned that they are going to fail if dealers do not market their products. You can make the best motor in the world but if no one sells it how long can you stay in business. <br /><br />I will probably never buy another 2 stroke engine. Living in California where 2 strokes are band from several lakes and I expect there to be many more in the future, so I will buy a 4 stroke. Also like getting rid of extra fuel tank. By the time they build a Bombardier following their motor may be band in California. There 4 strokes are all made by Sukuzi, but for me if I am going to buy a new Toyota I won't buy it from the Chev dealer.<br />I hope they start putting most of their effort in building good light weight 4 strokes as at least in this state I think that is the future.<br /><br />I did get a Johnson catalog and all the 4 strokes come with a 3 year non-declining warranty, 2 strokes are 2 year non-declining warranty.
 
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DJ

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Oh, Forktail,<br /><br />I disagree. Lack of enthusiasm or customers will not drive the prices down. Actually, quite the opposite. "Business 101". Producers do not produce for the sake of producing. They produce for PROFIT. <br /><br />0% financing has completely taken the consumers eye off of the the actual price! C'mon admit it.<br /><br />Boatist,<br /><br />Many 2-strokes meet CA emissions. Heck, they-you, are the entire reason the 2006 standard was written!<br /><br />I have been through some DMV and emissions excersizes in CA recently. Beleive me, no one knows what is what. Everyone is asking for $$$ to certify anything. Yes, I mean DMV employees.<br /><br />I do not like being held for ransom.<br /><br />Push the subject, check out the local laws. <br /><br />Just because it's Japanese doesn't mean it's better.
 

Forktail

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

It's not "Business 101" djohns. It's "Economics 101"....supply and demand.<br /><br />As I said, a lack of demand will cause the price to drop. As long as consumers have a strong demand for a product the manufacturers will take advantage of that demand and charge a higher price. When consumers become unwilling to pay the higher price, the demand for the product decreases, and in return the price usually drops.<br /><br />A good example of this is Bombardier's attempt at increasing demand for their outboards by offering big factory rebates and long warranties. Or Honda and Yamaha's arrogant pricing of the big 225 4-strokes....that consumers continue to be willing to pay for because they want one.<br /><br />I mean come on....when everybody wants some product really bad, you don't see that product sold at bargain discount prices. And when everybody doesn't want a product really bad, you don't see it rise in price.<br /><br />Furthermore, when products are in high demand, the supply is limited. And when products are in low demand there is generally a surplus of product. Products in limited supply generally cost more. Products in surplus supply generally cost less (go on sale).<br /><br />Ask yourself why you don't see 25 Dodge Viper's on every Dodge dealer's lot? And when you do see one it is very expensive?<br /><br />The object for the manufacturer is to find a balance between supply, demand, and price. It's called marketing. Pricing is only one part of the marketing equation, where all parts must apply.<br /><br />It looks like you agree with me djohns that manufacturers are in business to make as much money or "PROFIT" as they can. But without a demand for their product they can't sell enough to make a profit. And if they produce (supply) more than they sell they also can't make a profit. If they supply lots of a product because the demand is high, but don't charge enough for that product, the profits are too low as well.<br /><br />Djohns, your 0% financing is a unique example of how the manufacturers manipulate supply and demand. Consumers have slowed their demand for auto purchases. And the supply of them has increased. So the manufacturers need to sell more. But how do they do that without causing big profit losses? <br /><br />Here's how. Auto makers don't lower the price of their product (in fact it continues to increase). But what they do lower is the cost of the consumer to obtain money to purchase that auto. This works since most Americans finance their auto purchase through a bank. Did they pay less for the auto? No. Is their payment less? Sure. Buyers that pay cash will see no benefit to the 0% interest gigs. As you can see auto makers can manipulate the market, and what they charge for their product, by taking advantage of the fact that most consumers finance their purchase.<br /><br />Consumers haven't completely taken their eye off of the the actual price! The "acutal price" the consumer pays includes the interest. The auto makers have found a way to lower the price for the consumer without lowering the price of their actual product. Really, the banks lose out because they lost the customer that usually finances.<br /><br />Economics.
 

Boatist

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Djohns19<br />Yes you are right California has not band 2 strokes yet and most if not all direct injection 2 strokes meet the 2006 emissions, but you still can not run them on Lake Tahoe or two other lakes used for City water supply. Also still working on a 2008 standard and a 2010 Standard. For me a new 2 stoke not worth taking a chance on in California, 4 strokes Quiet and Fuel efficent also. Less likely to be band on lakes. This is the land of Fruits and Nuts.<br /> http://dbw.ca.gov/MTBEFAQ.htm <br /> http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/1997/Nov-01-Sat-1997/news/6341176.html
 

seahorse5

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Lake Tahoe patrol boats recently replaced their 4-stroke outboards with Evinrude FICHTS because they emit fewer total emissions than the 4-strokes. All Evinrudes meet California specs for all waters that allow outboards.
 

schoolfisher

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

I've become disgussted also. Dealership I got my boat from just went out of business here in central valley, ca. like you say, most others are pushing mercury or honda. but that don't help me!
 

Forktail

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

seahorse, better read California's requirements closely. The patrol boats, and 10hp or less don't fall under the same requirements, and can run whatever they want. Also it's a matter of interpretation to what outboards meet their clean engine clause. They really focus in on 2-strokes, Ficht or not. :) <br /><br />In part:<br /><br />"(b) Commencing June 1, 2004, recreational uses shall not, with<br />respect to a lake or reservoir that is part of a public drinking<br />water system or that has a designated beneficial use as a municipal<br />water supply in the applicable water quality control plan adopted<br />pursuant to Division 7 (commencing with Section 13000) of the Water<br />Code, include the operation of watercraft propelled by a two-stroke<br />engine that discharges unburned fuel or oil as a function of its<br />design, except with regard to the following:<br />(1) The operation of watercraft propelled by a two-stroke engine<br />with a power rating of 10 horsepower or less.<br />(2) The operation of watercraft propelled by a two-stroke engine<br />for any search, rescue, lifesaving, or other emergency response<br />activity conducted by a public agency or authorized private entity<br />when no appropriate watercraft that complies with this subdivision is<br />readily available.<br />(c) Except as provided in Sections 115840 and 115841, recreational<br />uses shall not, with respect to a reservoir in which water is stored<br />for domestic use, include recreation in which there is bodily<br />contact with the water by any participant."
 

seahorse5

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

FICHT, Optimax, and HPDI are considered "new technology" 2-strokes and are OK'd wherever 4 strokes are legal. They do not put unburned oil into the water like a traditional 2 stroke. 2008 will have sticter emission regulations and msot of the models can meet the "3 star" rating.
 

Forktail

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

That's good news seahorse. <br /><br />...include the operation of watercraft propelled by a two-stroke engine that discharges unburned fuel or oil as a function of its design..."<br /><br />This part really caught my attention since all 2-strokes are inherently designed to have some fuel scavaging. Fuel scavaging is where the intake and exhaust ports, coupled with fuel ignition timing, causes an unburned fuel/oil mixture to exit the exhaust system. Its more of an issue with 2-strokes (Ficht, Opti, HPDI or not) than 4-strokes because 4-strokes have controlled valve timing. But even 4-strokes have some fuel scavaging. And without catalytic converters, even they discharge unburned fuel.<br /><br />I'm sure the CA greenies already know this. That's why the "two stroke" comment catches my attention.
 

seahorse5

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

Don't forget that some 4-strokes discharge unburned fuel through valve overlap at low speeds. That is why many 4-strokes do not meet the strictest emissions regulations in their present form.
 

evin300

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

boatist, just go to consumer reports or something and buy what everyone else is goo goo about, go with a company that believes that 4-strokes are the future.<br /><br />I seriously doubt that many people bought Microsoft or Dell computer Stock, when these companies were unproven, so many doubters in the early days.<br /><br />If you only knew just how ahead of the curve OMC was when they bought the Ficht technology in the early 90's? They also purchased the Orbital/"Optimax" technology (just to be safe),they discarded it to Mercury.<br /><br />OMC took the leadership role (as always) and it came back to bite them this time. I am sure poor management is also to blame, but they had the right idea (as usual). I am sure that "George Soros" contributed somewhat the demise of OMC.<br /><br />Bombardier IMHO bought a goldmine, and they will make it come to fruition IMHO. So the question really is.... Am I a speculator, or not? The most sucsessful speculators do tons of homework, will you?<br /><br />Kudos, djohns and Forktail.
 

grayghost

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Re: Is Bombardier, Johnson, Evinrude going to make it.

I was just flipping through the local newspaper here in the Philadelphia suburbs and came across a full page add for Evinrude & Johnson. The add is mainly promoting rebates and it's timing is related to the Atlantic City boat show.<br /><br />I realize that this infomation is not all that exciting it's just that I have NEVER seen an advertisement for outboards or any marine equipment in this paper.
 
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