is it damaged?

garyN

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Dec 18, 2004
Messages
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My 2001 yamaha had problems for the past year. The dealer kept cleaning the carb and giving it back - then the performance would go downhill. This is a sailboat kicker so it sees little use (maybe 200 hours total).<br /><br />After three trips to clean the carb of oil it was discovered that the oil level was rising because of a bad fuel pump, and that was pumping gas into the oil and making everything run poorly.<br /><br />Now, they simply want to replace the pump and give it back - I am concerned about future problems due to excessive internal wear to the bearing, piston, rings, etc.<br /><br />As best I can determine this was going on for about a year and I ran the engine about 30 hours in that time before it really would not keep running.<br /><br />What do you think, even if it runs good can I be sure no major damage was done? and it their any way to tell - compression check ?<br /><br />I think this last time the oil was very badly diluted with the gasoline and it ran for about 2 hours, on and off as we tried to get it to warm up.<br /><br />Any input would be appreciated as I am out of warranty and will be speaking to the rep soon. I had three repairs during the warranty - in general my Yamaha experience has been way below my expectations.<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />Gary N
 

Ray Neudecker

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
1,656
Re: is it damaged?

The carbs on the four strokes have extremely small passages and can easily become restricted while not being used. Disconnecting the fuel line and running the engine dry after using should help keep the carb problem from reoccuring. There have been some problems with the gas in the oil from leaking fuel pumps, but I haven't heard of any long term problems it created.
 

Grant S

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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May 26, 2004
Messages
160
Re: is it damaged?

There is a chance that your diluted oil could have damaged your bearings and caused a lowering of oil pressure. You say it ran on and off as you got it to warm up. Was the engine cutting out on you? These engines have a cutout that reduces engine speed to idle if the oil pressure gets too low. Will it run well when it gets up to temperatue?<br /><br />I had these problems with an older model and it is not cheap to repair. To get an accurate diagnosis I put a tee in where the oil pressure sender unit is and ran an oil pressure guage while the motor was in the tank, to see what was happening with the pressure.
 

garyN

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Dec 18, 2004
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88
Re: is it damaged?

Thanks,<br />Yes the engine was cutting out, we thought it was not getting gas but now I am wondering if it was a loss of oil pressue. It did not run well at all - cold was worse. <br /><br />I will get the engine back later in the week and see (a) if it runs well and (2) if I hear any noise - like a bearing or rod.<br /><br />My instinct is to try to get Yamaha to buy it back and get a new one. This engine has only a few hundred hours on it total and I really don't want an expensive repair in a few months.<br /><br />I will post again later with update.<br /><br />Gary N
 

garyN

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Dec 18, 2004
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88
Re: is it damaged?

If you want to follow up with this please see my post under Yamaha has poor customer service.<br /><br />We have now replace the fuel pump and another new carbarator - and still poor running? This is the engine that moves my sailboat and needs to be reliable as possible. It is no fun to paddle back from Cataline to Oceanside, across the cargo shipping lanes with no engine, or electrcity.<br /><br />Gary
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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20,066
Re: is it damaged?

hello<br />sounds like a maint issue. most 2 stroke kickers were seriously neglected and the smaller passages on the 4 stroke make it worse. do you always use fresh fuel mixed with stabil? most sailboat kickers wont see 50 hours in 3 years much less 200. and a lot of blow boaters think the six gallons of fuel should last the life of the engine. that being said I have never seen a lubrication failure due to diluted oil. the so called cut-out is a misnomer. the system is designed so if loss of oil pressure or overheat it will missfire and not run properly above 2000 RPM or so. but it wont shut off. not designed to. a shut off indictes lack of fuel or spark or the engine is so hot the pistons stick or the head gaskets pop.<br />any dealer that cant find a bad fuel pump on the first try needs to close up and join the political party. as far as yamaha buying you another motor its not gonna happen unless it was a yamaha failure. trash in the fuel or bad fuel causing a rubber part to fail is not a yamaha problem but a dealer/consumer problem.<br /> now if its a yamaha problem not a dealer tech one and your dealership tells yamaha all about it you will find yamaha will bend over backwards to help. when you say clear the carb of oil. was oil in the fuel bowl? you have lost me on that one.<br /> post back with more info of the work and what was the first symptom of the first time it got worked on.
 

garyN

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Dec 18, 2004
Messages
88
Re: is it damaged?

Rodbolt<br /><br />The diluted oil was dripping out of the carb, and I was told the carb was "full of oil" I did not ask if that incuded the bowl.<br /><br />The first issue with the engine, from day one, was a 'dead' spot' on the throttle right at about the quarter throttle mark, or about 1800 rpm. When the throttle hit this spot the engine would bog and I had to back it down a touch and then forward through this dead spot. Once at full throttle it seemed to run ok. I was told this was the nature of a four stroke and I should get used to it. <br /><br />Next issue was hard starting, engine would start and idle up when cold but, as the idle would drop it went down suddenly and engine would stall. Each subsequent restart would bring it closer to staying running until about the 5th try and it would idle. <br /><br />Then, when running about 1600 rpm the engine would "hunt" up and down about 300 rpm - never happy to stay at speed - the thinking was this was at the point the low speed jet and high speed jet were fighting over. Anyhow, this was the most annoying thing because my ear would hear the engine surging and I never had confidence it was not going to stall.<br /><br />Then, it bagan to smoke more and start harder and stall more often. Cold starting became almost impossible and I could not start the engine on a damp night. I took to advancing the throttle for start and it would rev high enough not to stall every time - but it still stalled 2-3 times.<br /><br />As for gas and the like. I am really sensitive to that and always use fresh gas, I cycle the fuel into my car and refill the boat with fresh every 60 days. Bought all new yamaha fuel lines and tanks and vent cap.<br /><br />One item on this engine that is really bad is the design of the male fuel connector on the engine. Yamaha has no retaining device for the pin, so it goes sideways when the female connector on the hose is connected, really bad design that no engineer would stand for. I thought the engine was getting air in here, but it stalls and coughs even with the line is unhooked to run it dry.<br /><br />The final straw was that we pulled the dip stick and Oil came gushing out really strong. The dealer insisted I must have overfilled it - but I am very very careful of that and told him "no way" Although this should have alerted him, he did not check to see if it was gas mixed with the fuel. It was then "repaired" by cleaning the carb and returned to me as "fixed", ran great I was told. Hauled it back to the boat and fired it up and it ran worse than ever, now it backfired and sputtered, died at al speeds, hunted up and down more like 500 rpms at almost all speeds.<br /><br />Back to the shop, where it is now and the fuel pump is being replaced because that was pumping the fuel into the crankcase, and another new carb. Yamaha wants to good will me the parts only - so I am looking at a service bill of over $400. to finally (maybe) fix a problem that I reported within the first year I owned the engine under warrany and took in for warranty service 3 times. I am kind of sure it has internal damage now becuase of being run with the diluted 10%+ oil. Bearings can be heard!<br /><br />That is why I am unhappy, I have a lemon - I forgive them and all I want is good service and an engine that I can rely on. On a sail boat when you need it it better run. Getting out of the way of a tanker or coming home in the dark from Cataline to San Diego requires a dependable engine and mine is not.<br /><br />Gary
 

garyN

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Dec 18, 2004
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Re: is it damaged?

One more point, the reason I think Yamaha should treat me beter and consider offering to take this engine back ( I would be willing to pay something to get a new one) is that the diaphram in the fuel pump is defective. I looked all over the web and found that in the y2k time fram Yamaha used a hard plastic on these four stroke engines. This plastic cracks and I believe mine was cracked from the very beginning - it may also have been installed wrong at the factory.<br /><br />Secondly, it was the defective fuel pump diaphram that pumped the oil into the carb. I have been cleaning an oil drip from the front of the carb from the first month of ownership. This cannot be good for the longterm life of this engine. <br /><br />I would gladly pay an upgrade price just to get out of carrying this 100 pound monster back and forth from the shop.<br /><br />They don't want to hear any of it and that is bad customer service.
 

DHPMARINE

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Dec 16, 2003
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3,688
Re: is it damaged?

just a few thoughts....<br /><br />I think you have a couple of problems.<br /><br />When oil/gas drips out of the carb,usually it has been laid on its side improperly,and the crankcase oil has gotten into the cylinder and intake passage,and makes starting hard.If the carb leaks,needle and seat,or the fuel pump leaks,diaphram,the oil level will be WAY over full when you check it.<br /><br />DHP
 

rodbolt

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Re: is it damaged?

hello<br /> get over the pump<br /> you have a mechanically actuated pump like used on cars of old not the plastic diaphram vacum operated one. the second issue you have is poor techs at the repair facility you choose to fix it. ask to see the fuel system and 4 stroke system certifications.do you have documentation that the pump was bad under the warrenty period?<br />but just judgeing from your description of the problems when new I would say its a dealer issue. someone did not do the PDI sheet. do you have the original PDI sheet?<br />do you have work order documentation of the problem and the resolution of each time you had it in under warrenty?<br /><br /> and looking over your post it seems your a victim of a poor service facility. it happens I am sorry to say. that is why I almost alays water test when I am done and 100% if its a comeback.<br />has the dealer ever tested it in the water? not just in a tank. and surging up and down is never normal. the dealership was BS'ing ya.
 

garyN

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Dec 18, 2004
Messages
88
Re: is it damaged?

I really appreciate the feedback here from eveyone. So to answer the questions as posed:<br /><br />1. Engine is always stored upright, it is tilted on the transom, there is no chance the oil was from storage. Also it was diluted with gas a lot and I was told they found a tear in the diaphram that was "pumping the gas into the oil" .<br /><br />2. I also know that this is a mechanical pump - but the diaphram has a hard (plastic?) center and I have been advised that this is the flaw, as it breaks at the hard part ( I understand that they now use neophrene) . Wha is really a shame is that this part appears to last about three years, just long enugh for the mfg to avoid the warranty payment for a part that was defective at time of assembely (good for businees, bad for the consumer?)<br /><br />I have also been advised, on the board, that these defective diaphrams can break from simply being left connected to the fuel line! (apparently 50psi can be generate at rest) , and while I ran this engine dry almost every time, when being used when sailing I only tilt it up. <br /><br />Again, if this diaphram can be damaged by leaving the fuel line connected then it is "defective" and of a poor design. The manual says nothing about having to disconnect the fuel line every time the engine is shut down.<br /><br />I don't know why they would use a part like this and I am more certain than ever that the cracked diaphram was present from the manufacturing process.<br /><br />As for this dealer, they are Yahama's closest authorized dealer and they have all the certifications posted, so I am not going to insult them by asking if they know what they are doing. They are certainly not the best - but are trying, however if it was a design issue they can't do much about it.<br /><br />As for in the water testing - HA! this is Southern California and he would have to travel to my boat and take an hour off - if Yamaha won't pay them to do the simple 5 minute check of the fuel pump why should I even suggest they come to the ocean. I certainly don't want to pay for that.<br /><br />3. Rodbolt, I didn't say the dealer said the "surging" was normal, I said he stated the "dead' spot on the throttle was a quirk of the four stroke. The surging had him scratching his head.<br />The main mechanic has a lot of experience and he is stumped. <br /><br />I can see you guy also falling into the trap of refusing to admit the engine is a lemon - something is wrong that will not respond to the normal evaluation. I hope I can get rid of the anchor, for which I paid a premium price on the promise that I would avoid exactly the exercise I am going through now.<br /><br />Hopefully others will be spared my fate if they read this. I have now written directly toe Phil Dyskow, president of the Yamaha marine unit . I hope he will do something for me. It seems really simple to me, bad fuel pump from day one, pumping oil into the system, over and over, to the point it destroys the carbs, bearing, rings and connector pins and rods. Sounds like they should buy it back to me!<br /><br />Gary N
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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20,066
Re: is it damaged?

hello<br /> ask to see the old part. better yet retain it and post a pic. the techs working on it are "easter egging". the reason is its a MECHANICAL pump. its not the old vacum diaphram pump like used on a two stroke. I am assuming we are still talking about an F9.9. anyway a broken pump diaphram is about the easiest thing to find. an appentice tech should find it before he ever starts the engine. the starting procedure goes something like this. connect fuel line. pump primer until firm. now with a broken diaphram step 2 is impossible to achive cause not only will you push fuel directly into the block the primer never gets firm and you can hear the fuel squishing past the broken diaphram.in all the years I have played with 4 stroke yamahas I have yet to see a bad mechanical pump. the vacum operated 2 stroke pumps are a much different story. as far as the dealer not seeing the fuel dilution. goes back to poorly trained techs. with enough gas to cause the oil to overflow the dipstick you cant help but smell the gas in the oil. most the causes of fuel dilution are either the needle valve on the carb is defective or the thermostat is stuck open or the engine is never properly broken in or propped correctly. most sailboat kickers are not propped nor run at the recommended speeds. that is why I refuse to work on blow boat motors anymore. how was the WOT RPM checked? did you just run the prop that came in the box?<br /> as far as a lemon gopes I have never seen one. I have seen some with minor problems and a few with major problems when new. however your dealer knew this one had problems and bullshot ya into believing a fuel problem was just a "quirk"the F9.9 is a solid smoth engine from idle to WOT. anysurging or dead spots indicate its dying, and motors are like people. if they are dying and the doc dont fix them they are dead. so it goes back to is it a yamaha defect or poor techs. you say it takes 5 min to test the pump for leakage? takes less than that. takes about 4 pumps on the fuel primer. nd if a simple 2 cyl carbed 4 stroke kicks the techs but imagine the trouble he will have with a v6 EFI 4 strke. this stuff aint black magic nor voodoo. however it does require incredible attention to detail.I have seen fuel systems pressurize while sitting in the sun. I have never seen it break a diaphram. the needle valve will leak long before the diaphram breaks.the symptom then will be a severly flooded engine and fuel dripping out especially when tilted up. almost every time you see an engine with a dead spot you will find a dirty/defective carb. yes I have seen a carb or two that was bad out of the box. so all this keeps going back to bad troubleshooting and technical misjudgement. like I say if this simple motor stumps the main man just think what he does to the guys with V^ EFI and HPDI motors.<br /> have they ever actually run this motor with a test wheel in a test tank? all you can tell on a flusher is that the engine will run and thats about it. you have to simulate or operate with a normal load.<br /> I hope yaha will help you. just dont get nasty or demanding and they normally will. if you call and are nasty or threaten with a lawsuit they normally wont. keep all your workorder and warrenty repair information. but you may wish to change shops. the f9.9 has been around a long time and works well. and I understand your frustration. but before blaming yamaha look over the repairs and you may see that the repairs were never completed to your satisfaction. leads back to a poor dealer.
 

garyN

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Dec 18, 2004
Messages
88
Re: is it damaged?

Thanks,<br /><br />I am in agreement about the poor level of technical service at the dealer. But what is a customer supposed to do? These guys are "authorize" and they appear to be able to speak directly to Yamaha, ulitmately again, and not to bash them but this is the company's problem. They need to investigate complaints like mine and maybe drop certains shops. Of course you and I both know that what Yamaha want to do is sell products and, if a bad shop can sell a lot of product then they will not do anything.<br /><br />My engine is a T9.9 p[ower thrust and I am sure a better shop would have be more willing to look at the problem in more deatil. Here all they say is "it is the carb, these 4 stroke carbs required for California emissions are a problem'.<br /><br />As for the use of the engine, here in Southern Cal, things are far apart, it is a 4 hours motor from Oceanside to Dana Point (closest harbor) and 9 hours to Cataline so not running the engine is not an issue. I run at three quarter throtle, 6+ knots (when it is running) for hours. As for the prop on the power thrust it is perfectly suited for a sailboat - so that is not an issue.<br /><br />What Yamaha needs is to talk directly to customers - they would not even give me the last names of the customer service people (and supervisor) in "GA. This is really bad, what are they worried about, that I will travel to Ga from CA and stalk them or something. Really bad message. They need a customer service 'tuneup" right now. I am in a position to influence 100's of potential buyers of these sailboat engines (my yacht club and racing affiliations) and I will not have anything good to say about Yamaha unless they give me something to say - like thay paid attention and reacted. I have been off the water for over 40 days now and that stinks.<br /><br />Gary
 

TOHATSU GURU

Admiral
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Jul 22, 2004
Messages
6,164
Re: is it damaged?

Gary,<br /><br />I'm confused. Is this the same engine that you were complaining about on the Nissan/Tohatsu forum?
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: is it damaged?

Member # 32169 <br /><br /> posted January 20, 2005 05:55 AM <br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />hello<br />I posted under the is it damaged one. here I will ask you to ask the dealer to run a compression test for me. then post me the results. depending on what they say I will advise further. please ask them to test the compression and post me back the request results.
 

garyN

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Dec 18, 2004
Messages
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Re: is it damaged?

Elvin<br /><br />Yes, I was new on the board and I searchd for "gas in oil" I didn't realize that the hit I got was for Nissan. That is why I switched over to where this belongs now. I am still hoping that someone at Yamaha will help me.<br /><br />By the way, your advice was very helpful and I may replace this engine with a Nissan - If I get the opportunity.<br /><br />The saga continues - as I wait (not over 40 days) for the engine to be fixed. <br /><br />Gary N
 

WillyBWright

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Dec 29, 2003
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8,200
Re: is it damaged?

I'd like to address a fine point about starting those. If it has an accelerator pump, put the motor in Fwd, pump the throttle a few times, return it to idle, put it back in Neutral, then start. If it doesn't have an accelerator pump, the pumping part won't help. But it is very important for that throttle to be all the way down to idle. If it goes above, it defeats the enrichening circuit and just gets the normal running mixture. This could also happen if the idle is set too high. It's also important that the throttle not be advanced too soon as that will stop the enrichening and it won't reestablish enrichment even if the throttle is brought back down to idle. Then it'll die and you start all over again. Of course if you have a manual choke instead of an automatic one, this doesn't apply.<br /><br />The lagging problem sounds like California Emissions. They twist the mixture so lean that there can be a dead spot on acceleration. The dealer's hands are tied on that one and all he can legally do is try different carbs until one works. He faces stiff fines if he messes with that idle mixture screw.<br /><br />The excessive oil could come from water or gas gettng into the oil. That much and I'd have to say it was gas, but it should be very noticably gassy in smell. The oil will absorb some water before turning milky, but I wouldn't think enough to way overfill the crankcase. Then I'd expect to at least see some coffee and cream coloring.<br /><br />Have the dealer set the motor up to run, hopefully in a test tank rather than on muffs. Go through everything you do and let them see exactly how you start it. They might notice something obvious to them, but something you never gave a thought.<br /><br />The fuel connector on the motor should have a pin that retains the connector with a clip on the hose end. It would be right alongside the inlet. The pin should be pointy with a notch near the point where the clip tucks in. I haven't seen one do it, but that pin could pull out or the point break off.<br /><br />Always use stabilizer in your gas. That motor won't burn it up quick enough to keep the gas from going stale. Disconnect the hose from the motor during long periods of non-use. That's pretty universal on any motor using a portable tank. Make sure the vent is open on the tank during operation. During downtime I'd leave it just a little cracked so pressure can't build-up. If we're talking months, by all means close it.<br /><br />How far does the motor sit in the water? The further down, the more water it has to push out the exhaust which is underwater. There's a relief port, but that doesn't breathe much. That can make them hard to start as well. I wouldn't want to see the anti-ventilation plate underwater by more than a half a foot.<br /><br />Make sure the motor is sitting good and level. They seem to start harder if they're trimmed much from vertical.<br /><br />The oil/carb thing is probably coming from the breather. That comes from too much oil in the crankcase, or transporting it incorrectly. It can lie on it's front, back, or on one side. The only way it can't be laid is with the carb side down. There's usually a sticker on the lower pan that shows how to transport it.<br /><br />One more thing I'd like to touch on that the dealer might not have thought of is your fuel supply. What is it and where dies it sit? If the gas gets hot from sitting in an enclosed compartment that gets hot in the sun, then you can expect problems starting and running. If the tank is setting way below the powerhead, the fuel pump might have problems drawing gas way up to the motor. It shouldn't be any lower than it would be if the motor was on a rowboat. I know sailboat hulls go way below where the motor sits, usually quite a bit more than a rowboat. That's primarily what those motors are designed for, so you have to keep some of those aspects in mind.<br /><br /><br />Like Rodbolt, I'm not concerned about the dilution and the bearings. There was still plenty of lubrication there. But I know where you are coming from and right now every creak and pop is suspect. You'll always think that motor is junk and nothing at this juncture is going to give you any faith in it. I hope they are able to resolve the problem(s). When you get it back, if it performs well you might consider selling it and getting yourself something else. That's the only way you're going to get any peace of mind. If it still has the problem(s), make sure to forward that information to prospective buyers. It might run perfectly fine if used in another applciation.<br /><br />Good luck.
 

garyN

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Dec 18, 2004
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Re: is it damaged?

Willy<br /><br />You have provided some of the most useful info to date. I wish someone had told me about the thottle thing before - this engine does has an accelerator pump. So, if,(when?) I get it back I will try that. Yamaha is replacing the fuel pump and the carb (parts only) buy your assurance that the oil dilution is not a problem helps me consider keeping this engine.<br /><br />As for prop length, I have a 25in shafat on a 20 in trasom - on a keel sailoat that is good becaue we tend to pitch and roll a lot and keeping the prop and water intake submerged deep at all times is a good thing.<br /><br />Will wait and see - it really should not be this difficult to get a small four stroke repaired and running properly. <br /><br />As for the dead spot on the throttle - I guess you are agreeing with the dealer that it is "normal for a california four stroke". To bad they can't make them run better.<br /><br />I will post with my update and want to thank everyone. This is a great board.<br /><br />Gary n
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: is it damaged?

garyN<br /> the dead spot is not normal<br /> if it is a carb problem and its been documented you have a warrenty that most dont know about. to sell a product that burns gasoline the emission system components must carry a minimum of 2 years.regardless of what the manufactures warrenty is.<br /> that is why I say its a dealer problem. if you call yamaha and tell them the product is junk and generally get pissy with them they will allow you to dry up on the vine. can you scan and email me the PDI sheet that you got when the engine was delivered? the prop that it came with may or may not be the one you actually need. if that motor cannot turn 5000 RPM it will make oil. the operating range on that FT motor is 4000 to 5000. the idle speed in nuetral should be 1150 plus or minus 50 RPM. in gear 1000 RPM. <br /> if its to high or to low starting problems are an issue.<br />I looked up the carb and its not offered in a california version so that means you have what the rest of us have. meaning the dead spot is NOT normal. the air fuel needle can be adjusted it just must be resealed after any adjustments.I am not a dealer just a lowly tech.<br /> however I do have a decent reputation with a lot of the service reps and instructors in kennesaw. I dont like to see problems with a product that I personally consider to be one of the best that is caused by poorly trained or uncaring techs.<br /> you would not believe how many little motors I have run on my personal boat on my time to either make fail or confirm a repair. no one pays but in the end the consumer is happy. thats the whole key. if I work on it it must perform correctly or the repair was not satisfactory and therefore my integrity and reputation is on the line.<br /> but I will advise again dont call yamaha withthreats or negativity. you will get a cold shoulder.<br /> however if you call and say I have had it at dealer X 4 times and it gets worse with each trip and the problem stated under warrenty and if nothing else ask if you can speak with another dealer they reccommend.<br /> the whole key is allowing the human on the other end of the phone to go home feeling good.<br />email me at rodbolt40@yahoo.com
 

garyN

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Dec 18, 2004
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Re: is it damaged?

Rodbolt<br /><br />Thanks for the attention you have given this posting. I know the problem started under warranty but all the dealer wrote down went I took it in the first time was "runs badly, surges and rpm hunts". Almost every time he convinced me that it was the carb and he charged me to clean it twice and then, when that didn't work he got Yamaha to provide a new one.<br /><br />Now we are waiting for another new on to arrive, but they want me to pay all the labor for this and the new fuel pump (which was had a cracked diaphram) .<br /><br />As for customer service I have tried to be very professional - but they are bad, they spoke to me for 10 minutes before I asked them if they had all records. They do not as they only have the warranty records and none of the stuff I had paid for. So, they are evaluating my problem with only partial information and never asked me to provide the rest.<br /><br />The guy who I delt with in GA was named Nathan and it was really clear to me that customer service was not a good career choice for him.<br /><br />He was rude and insulting. He started off by telling me I shouldn't call at lunch time (remember I am callinf from California), because he really didn't want to work. Then he proceeded to "spar" with me over thing on my personal engine the he said were impossible - but I had experienced. <br /><br />After that I made two additional phone calls and was assured the Nathan's supervisor "John" would phone me. I am still waiting for that call and I know it was a lie. This is not how you run a great company. The products may be good, but my experience is bad and if they want me to ever recommend or buy a Yamaha again they need to pay attention, get all the facts and have someone with authority deal directly with me.<br /><br />I am haveing the compression tested and will contine to relate my poor experience for as long as they continue to deliver poor customer service. <br /><br /><br />Thanks again,<br /><br />Gary Naughton
 
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