Is Schematic in the House ?

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Ok, I'm really scratching my head; charged up the second battery, tested with multimeter right before switching out, and battery showed 12v. Switched dead battery out for the new one, and all dash instruments were working, had power to turn the engine over, but at the t/t soelenoids, nothing, just the click for up and nothing for down. I figured I would bypass the switch and soelenoids, unhooked the battery, unhooked the t/t motor, and held the ground to neg. terminal and the green to pos. terminal, assuming I would hear the motor do something, all I got was a big spark. Tried with black to neg and red to pos, samething. Tested battery again at this stage, after only being there around 25 minutes, and it was down around 4 volts. What do you make of this

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Boy you are having trouble!<br /><br />The battery should read 12.5-12.8 if it is up in charge. 12 means its dead. It is possible that you have a problem within the TnT motor(shorted to ground) The only thing that bothers me is troubleshooting a motor using a dead battery. Pull the battery out of you vehicle (or hook up booster cables) and power the motor from a known good source.(be sure the motor leads are totally disconnected from the engine and harness) If it still just sparks.....remove and reinspect the motor. If you disassemble it, be sure that the brush leads are not touching ground. Do not continue to apply power to the motor for more than a second. If it is shorted internally, a few seconds of applied power can burn it beyond repair....<br /><br />*one more hint.....the brush holders may not be interchangeable. In other words, one may not be insulated from ground. This means it may be possible to cause a short by swapping the brushes in their holders......

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Remember, it was working great the first day I put her back together; Then, after about 3hrs on the water, only the up would work; the way the brushes are connected to the wires, I never switched brushes, just changed the spring; would that make a difference ?? Also, am I wrong in assuming that I should be able to wire the motor straight to the battery to get some type of action ??

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

you should be able to power up the motor just as you tried, but a low battery will sway your results......

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Why the sparks when I touched black to neg and red or green to pos ?

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Either you have an internal problem with the motor, or the battery is so low, it doesn't supply enough voltage when under load. Battery voltage down to 4 volts spells dead or defective battery, "no matter how you slice it".....

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Ok Schematic, here we go; went back last night with a good battery, and here is what I got. When I tried to wire the motor wires directly to the battery, the second I touched it to the terminals, got a big spark, so I didn't hold them on there for more than a fraction of a second. Any suggestions for what is next ?? What I first thought was the soelenoids, I am wondering if there is something more to the motor since I get just the big spark when I wire it direct . However, when I put it back together, it worked great for a few hours, then just up. What could have changed ? Would you recommend test the OHM's/resistance on each soelenoid and the motor itself ? If so, how do I do this ? Thanks again for your patience and help ? <br />

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[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Now we're getting somewhere!!! Nice drawings!!<br /><br />It appears that you have a supply problem from the junction at the starter(this is assuming that it cranks well), or a poor ground. It also appears that you have a solenoid and/or solenoid control problem as well.(we'll address that later)<br /><br />I'll be back at you tonight

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Hi again<br /><br />To confirm a voltage loss in the system, please do the following DC voltage tests.....be sure to do V1, V2, V3 while trimming up. Do V4 while trimming down...<br /><br />

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Let's make sure I got this right, <br />V1 is testing the voltage at the battery itself, should be 12-14v<br /><br />V2 is the battery positive terminal and the hot lead on the UP soelenoid, what should voltage read ? (Forgive my being naive, but how will this register without a ground ?)<br /><br />V3 is the battery ground (neg terminal) and the ground to the engine block. What should voltage be here ? <br /><br />all these are done with the trim up switch depressed ? Correct ? <br /><br />V4 is the battery ground and the white wire coming off the soelenoid, while the down switch is depressed ? Is it ok to strip a little of the withe wire ? Again, what voltage should I get here ? <br /><br />Thanks for the help !

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

V1 = voltage source while under load (should be 9.5v or higher)<br />V2 = voltage loss between battery + and solenoids while under load (should be no more than .5V loss)<br />V3 = voltage loss in the ground circuit while under load (should be no more than .5V loss)<br />V4 = voltage applied to down solenoid coil (should be 9V or higher)<br /><br />*from what you've said, I suspect V2 to be high, and V4 to be low.....

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Hey Schematic, have had a chance to get back to this with mother's day and softball; hope to get at it soon, though !

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

OK, here's the latest; finally got a whole day to mess with the boat; unfortunately, I didn't have any help so I couldn't use the voltmeter and depress switch; here's what I did discover, however. Before I bought the boat, it was kept in the water; the t/t motor casing had lots of rust; it was tough breaking the seal, because of the rust, but I did it; when I put it back together, I used RTV as well as new O-rings, but it may not have the water tight seal it had before I opened it. I took the casing off, and there was a lot (maybe1 1/2 - 2 inches of a whitem crystal looking substance all inside the case; the metal surface itself had a lot of the white build up 'adhering' to the aluminum case; also, the motor windings were starting to rust. Also, the ground wire coming off the brush was blac. I thoroughly cleaned the motor, sprayed really good with CTC contact cleaner, brushed the windings to get all rust off, etc. put it back together, when I put 12v to the motor wires, it still sparked; I tried cleaning the ground wire, and after messing with it, I would put the power to it, and the motor would work briefly, then spark and stop. I would mess with ground again, it would work, then stop; it sounds like the ground may be bad. the ground wire looks like there is a hole in the brush that it is drilled into and soldered, the other end goes into a crimp with another wire. Is there hope for this ground ? does the white stuff and rust sound like it is leaking ? if so, any suggestions to seal it up tight ? I hope to test the switches this week.

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Hey Schematic, are you out there ??

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Help, I think I'm almost there

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Sounds like the motor is in rough shape. The ground you are flexing may a bad connection. I don't like the fact that the windings are rusted/corroded. The white stuff you may be seeing could be corrosion caused by using RTV in a confined air space. It is highly corrosive, due to its curing agent. I'd use a urethane caulk instead. Until you get some voltage readings, we can't determine the extent of your problem. It doesn't sound good for the motor at this point....Can you take a picture of the inside of the motor with a digital camera, and we'll know whether to throw in the towl or not. The windings are what bothers me.....

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Hey Schematic, thanks again. You were dead on re the RTV; someone told me the blue silicone was ok to use. I cleaned all the old RTV off, cleaned most of the corrosion off, someone told me to use white vinegar to get it all off; here are the pics <br /><br />

<br />this is looking down at the top; hard to see, but the brush that is hanging out and the white specked wire is the one that is black; the wire has a lot of strands, and is in otherwise pretty good shape; will vinegar clean this up as well ?<br />

<br />the next one shows the inside looking at the windings, which are in decent shape, some surface rust, will clean and brush.<br />

<br />third one is a bad pic, shows the brush with the blackened wire<br />

<br />last one is just looking in it.<br /><br />I looked into a new one, costs about $433, to rebuild this one with a 90 day warranty is $225; I really like to fix mine if at all possible, but let me know whether or not you think all hope is lost or not

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Troyo<br /><br />Now we're getting some where......nice pictures.<br />Unfortunetaly........your field windings are burnt and discolored. Some of the insulation is coming off, which accounts for the intermitent operation.<br /><br />time for a rebuilt or new motor....