Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

[walleyehed]

OK, I'll see if I can keep this as short as possible, and still get accross.<br /> I ran into a guy from Texas tonite as I loaded up after doing some testing on props/setback/mounting height. As some of you may know what I'm doing by other posts.<br /> I talked with this gent for about an hour and we discussed oil, and RPM.....both discussions did not match my beliefs.<br /> #1, he told me he has been running Johnsons for 35 yrs, and found quite some time back, that the "best item he ever bought" for his engine was synthetic oil, Bell-ray to be specific. Claims he's never had a fouled plug since using syn. oil, and claims to have ran several engines "Thousands of hours" on penzoil synthetic, and "Normal oil" is just not good enough....Don't want to open the same can-o-worms here...we've heard this from others, too.<br /> We got on the topic of RPM, and he asked what I was shooting for....I said 5900-6000 with this light load...He says, get this, 5200r's if you want your engine to last very long....I disagreed, and quickly got the "I've done this more, better, bigger, harder, longer" speach, and I replied my thoughts. I told him nothing of my background, although I found he has fished more tournaments than Shaw Grigsby-actually, I think he said he fished with him........<br /> Here is another kicker...I asked if he ever looked in on the iboats forums...No, he said.<br />I tried to fill him in on the use this board gets, and low and behold, he claims he knows Joe Reeves!!!!!!!<br /> Joe, maybe ya do, here is his web page...<br /> garysfishinplace.com<br /> I haven't checked it out yet, but plan too...<br /> Anyway, The synthetic throws me, as well as the 5200RPM max on the 4500-5500 max engines.<br /> I guess all are intitled to their opinion???????

 

[1stoutboard]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

Kenny, did the idle problem go away? Did you switch back to your old oil?.

 

[BillP]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

I don't think you will ever get a cut and dried answer to what oil to use or how to prop. It helps to know how the rigs are used, fast, trolling, etc. when getting these opinions. A pro bass guy who runs fast all the time isn't likely to have plug fouling with any type oil. He doesn't foul plugs with synthetic I don't foul plugs with pet oil. The only time I remember fouling plugs was in the 50s when we used straight 30w auto oil and didn't adjust the mixture control lean enough for trolling or run fast to "clean the plugs" off. We also watched the plug range closly. I often wonder if the people who have so many fouling problems ever change their plug heat range.<br /><br />I currently use Bel-Ray MC-1+ in my air cooled lawn type machines but it is not TCW rated so I wouldn't use it for an outboard. Bel-Ray oils are not TCW rated according to the 2003 list. It is just plain bad advise,in my humble opinion, to advise someone to use non TCW oil in an outboard. It doesn't meet (officially) modern OB mfgs specs, period. <br /><br />On the RPMS...your 150 OMC redlines between 4500 & 5500 right? 5200 is inside the mfgs spec so he is just being a tad conservative. I personally don't thing maxing the RPMs hurts the motor for normal use. <br /><br />My advice is to prop anywhere in the mfgs max listed range. From racing you already know two strokes don't like to be lugged. It depends on how the motor is used too. If WFO 100% of the time and jumping waves I'd error on the low side, especially if you don't have a rev limiter (which cuts out at 6300 on my 5500-6000 OMC). The best and fastest way to snap a drive shaft or blow the motor is to get airborne and over rev the motor. When the prop hits the water again it happens, not when the motor revs high. There is still a big saftey margin over the mfgs published RPMs.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

Walleyehed<br /><br />Now that you have talked to a guy that uses Syntetics, and BelRay is not TC-W III rated of couse my Sugestion is to look on my home page for the information you neen! These Products are by far the best and they stand behind them 100%! I use all of them I can and Have never been disappointed! <br /><br />I ask you to just try one tankful, I really do not think you will go back! Your engine will start easier, smoke less, and just sound smoother!<br /><br />This subject has been run into the ground I know, But I just cant understand whay people spend so much money on there toys only to try and see how cheaply they can maintain them! They really are not that much more expensive concidering the vast improvement in performance! You have been doing a lot of testing and would certainly notice if there are any changes in performance! I personally think that if there was an oil pump failure on an engine with synthetics that you would not damage the engine if you shut it right down right away as sometimes happens with regular 2 cycle oils! (just a personal beleif)!<br /><br />Check it out! Yes Im a dealer (now) You do not have to buy from me, Look around locally or become a dealer yourself!<br /><br />LubeDude<br /><br />Moderator, Please let me know if Im overstepping my boundries!!

 

[kenneths]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

Hey, Guys! Back home for the weekend.....I would.ve responded sooner on some things, but PC is down, at work, so this weekend is all I get.<br />LubeDude, email me at ktsanderson@st-tel.net<br />1stoutboard, I'll post on "2-stroke oils" as to my answer.<br />BillP, I have a 7.5hp kicker on my rig, and am looking for top-end....see "Dhadley, transom setback".<br />Thanks all,<br />Walleyehed

 

[BillP]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

LubeDude,<br />Are you implying to use Amsoil because Bel-Ray is not TCW-3 rated? Amsoil is not TCW-3 certified either. Advertising as "compatable with TCW-3" doesn't make it for the real thing and I believe is also misleading to the consumer. Why would anybody want to go against the OB mfgs written specs and chance a non TCW oil? Is there any doubt what Amsoil (or any other mfg) would do if you used their oil in an application outside of their written specs? <br /><br />If someone doesn't care about the TCW rating and base their choice from experienced users then Bel-Ray is far more evident than Amsoil by about 1000 to 1 in 2 stroke racing. It isn't even close and racers aren't doing this to save a buck either.

 

[Oil Man]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

Bill,<br />You are right, Amsoil is not TC-W3 certified by the NMMA. That does not mean it does not meet/exceed TC-W3 specifications. Amsoil chooses not to pay the bribe to the NMMA to certify that their oil meets the spec.<br />Three of the four Amsoil 2-cycle oils meet/exceed TC-W3 specifications. The only oil that is TC-W is the new snowmobile/watercraft oil.<br /><br />Using Amsoil WILL NOT void your warranty. Besides, Amsoil has their own written warranty.<br /><br />And Bel-Ray is 1000X more evident in two cycle racing? Amsoil is the official oil of the Formula 1 PROP tour (all 2 cycle outboards), and the WSA Snocross tour (all 2 cycle snowmobiles). Go to any of these events and Amsoil will be used in over half of the engines. Where I race motocross, Amsoil is in about 1/3 of the two stroke bikes. You can count the Bel-Ray users on 1 hand.

 

[BillP]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

That is very interesting...things must be different up north concerning oil brands for 2 stroke motorcycles. Amsoil is not evident in Florida at Daytona or Moroso. I have a hard time believing racers are using Amsoil but advertising other brands instead (as stated in Amsoil advertising). <br /><br />Anyway, I'll have to see it in writing from the motor makers before I believe running non TCW rated oil won't void the warranty. Amsoil is too cheap to pay for a TWC certification so that tells me they might be cheap when dealing with their warranty. Just how is one supposed to prove oil messed up a motor? That is almost impossible to prove and Amsoil knows it. What does their "fine print" say? <br /><br />Beside that, why should anyone believe Amsoil's advertising more than other oil brands that do have the certification? Hearsay and "it worked great for me" statements don't mean jack to me because ALL oils get those raves. <br /><br />Whether TCW is a "bribe" or not at least it shows they want to conform and meet certain standards. It has credibility with consumers whether Amsoil likes it or not. If Amsoil doesn't care (too smart, ego tripping or arrogant?) enough to get the certification then they don't care or understand what the consumer thinks either. Maybe they really can't meet the standards? Maybe they aren't interested in catering to boaters?Whatever it is, they sure don't mind using TCW in their advertising. In my eye it is cleverly written and laid out to use the term and make the reader think it is certified. Nicely done by slick advertising execs.<br /><br />It may sound like I don't like Amsoil but that isn't the case. My gut feeling is 99% of all 2 stroke synthetic oils will give A1 results regardless of the TCW rating. I also think regular pet oil is fine and KNOW (from experience)it gives many 1000s of excellent running hours on OB motors too. I think most folks are worrying way too much on what oil to use. I just don't have any way to prove who's hype is right. That's why the TCW certification is valuable to me.

 

[grampa's toy]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

I just getting back to outboards been running a bigger boat with inbaords I plan on using syn. in my 1980 200hp crossflo.Don't know much about outboards but the snowmobilers I know, flat out drag ,and weekend hot rodders swear by syn. talked to several who went back to reg oil to save money, only to have the motor burn up in a few tanks of gas.I don't know what tcw standard is I agree that no matter what you use, if it meets or exceedes ind. standards you should be just fine. thanks for listening

 

[Oil Man]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

Bill,<br /><br />TC-W3 specification is different than TC-W3 certification. A specification is a set of written standards. Anybody can test to those standards and determine if a item meets specifications. Amsoil meets those specifications.<br />Certification means that some independant body has tested the item and "certified" that it meets those specs. Amsoil chooses not to pay to have the NMMA "certify" their oils. If you think that means they don't meet spec, then fine, you use what you want. Amsoil has been making synthetic 2-stroke oil for 25 years, and has been in business for 30 years. I don't think they would last that long if they made substandard products.<br /><br />Also, what does "certification" mean? Somebody sent in a sample to be tested and it passed. Does the NMMA sample product off the shelf and test it again? The API (the people that certify automobile oil) took a sample of oils that they had certified and found that 20% did not meet spec! Kind of makes you wonder what all the hype is about? A friend of mine burned up two PWCs within 10 minutes of each other using a TC-W3 oil. The manufacturer (Citgo) would not stand behind the oil. He now uses Amsoil.<br /><br />We can disagree on the importance of the certification and that is fine. You can even say that it does not meet TC-W3 but unless you've tested it you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[kenneths]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

Man, I'm good at opening cans of worms here.....<br /> I BELIEVE the ONLY reason synthetics are not recommended by the manufacturer, is because it is NOT NEEDED to protect the engine against the environment it was intended to be run in.<br /> My opinion here, but IF we were all going to run 1000RPM HIGHER than recommended WOT....synthetics would be the rule.<br /> I DO, however, believe the synthetics reduce plug-fouling, and see the benefits of that.<br /> I spent a period of time in the 80's racing snowmobiles with Team Yamaha, and yes, we used Bell-ray at that time. I would by no means, be afraid of any product made by Amzoil, as it has sold itself for many years, and has proven itself worthy in any conditions.<br /> Bottom line is....if you do alot of trolling, and have found synthetics to reduce plug-fouling, by all means, please continue to use it. If you Don't spend alot of time at idle, and run WITHIN recommended specs, I feel there is no need for total synthetic oil.<br /> I, myself, believe in what I've been using-J/E XD-25, which is PARTIAL synthetic (25%), and have had ZERO problems, so far.<br /> In my 70HP Merc, I use quicksilver, straight mineral base, and again, No problems.<br />Extreme conditions demand extreme oil, standard conditions-standard oil.....My opinion.

 

[BillP]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

Mr.Oilman,<br /><br />A little touchy aren't we? I asked legit questions. Don't even start with you know some motors that got trashed on mineral oil and didn't on synthetic...unless it is a controlled lab test by neutral parties. <br /><br />I see no references on this string about synthetic not being a good oil. I use it but not in my outboards (approx 43 yrs using mineral oil in outboards and 15+ yrs using synthetic in 2 Kaw 440 pwrd ultralite planes, model glo engines, lawn equipt and motorcycles). I did a short stint of synthetic about 1978 in an ob but didn't stay with it because the stuff was too new to have history. I've experienced both the upsides and downsides of using the stuff. <br /><br />So you glossed over my earlier questions on why anyone should buy a product based on just mfgs advertising and hearsay. Then lectured on specs vs certifications (which I learned in business 30+ yrs ago)and told me I have to "test" your product to know what I am talking about. All I can say about that is using a product doesn't prove anything about specs or TCW-3 certifications. Can you provide ANY independent lab testing of Amsoil marine synthetic proving they meet or exceed TWC-3 certification specs?

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

I have to apoligize for stating that Amsoil 100:1 was Certified TC-W lll !! I really thought that it was!<br /><br />I do have to agree with oilman though, even if he did go off a little! We both feel very strongly about the products ability to perform as advertized! Plus there is no other product out there that will pay for your engine if it is damaged by there product!<br /><br />It does meet "specifications" though!<br /><br />LubeDude

 

[BillP]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

I think Amsoil would capture a bigger piece of the marine market if they had the certification. I can't see how it would hurt them unless the certification process exposes trade secrets. That is a question I will ask the NMMA.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

The NMMA keeps everything confidential so trade secrets don't get out, however they do not allow the same formula to be certified by another company. They also spot check oil off the shelf periodically to make sure it is still the same as the tested oil.<br /><br />There are about 40 standards and specs that a TC-W3 oil has to meet and the testing procedure costs about $125,000, plus an annual fee.

 

[BillP]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

Seahorse...very interesting. I can't believe any big oil company would balk at $125k. Of course years ago (80s)Castrol auto oil wasn't rated in the class they were marketing in either, while ALL their competition was. I think it was SH or SF...but don't remember for sure. It was the high speed stuff.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

Some of the major brands sell non-API rated oils such as the ones for "high milage cars" and for performance engines.

 

[ZEE]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

My 2 cents: I am a believer in synthetics! I use them in every engine powered device I own - Dodge Ram 5.9 V8; GMC 4.3 V6; Honda BF130; Generac 7.8 HP; 26HP Lawn Tractor, etc, etc.and numerous vehicles back to a 76 Chrysler T&C. I do not buy cheap - the oil must meet the service spec's for the engine. Easy cold starts, smooth running, no oil consumption, clean plugs. I don't understand what anyone sees in petrol based oils!

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

ZEE<br /><br />Ya, I know, Ive posted a couple of times that I cant see why people spend so much money on there toys and then see just how cheap they can get by!<br /><br />This discusion has been going on for a long time here on the forum, and this post is going to start a lot of it up again!! Im sure we are going to hear things like, Why should I pay more than I need to? Its all just the same if its TC-W Rated! I dont trust that stuff! You cant fool mother nature! Ive run a million hours without it! I buy Seafoam (A great product) By the case and sparkplugs too! The fact is that everything is just better about it! Ive posted it many times all over the forum and I still get those same answers!! Thats what makes the world turn! But they are still a bunch of great guys and allways willing to help if they can!!<br /><br />Right now my Merc 150 is ailling and will change it over when I get it running right! Ive had nothing but good to say about it for 30 years, however there has been some bad stuff out there and we are still paying the price for those problems! Probably why there is so much apprihention over synthetics! Some use em and some never will!<br /><br />Wait untill they find out mobil 1 dosnt even have the wear values of regular old penzoil!

 

[BillP]

Re: Johnson 150, and 2-Stroke oil

Lubedude,<br />Come on Ross! Get past your tunnel vision that everyone who doesn't use synthetic is cheap and just wanting to save money. The price of oil makes NO matter to me and I don't use the stuff in OBs. I've already posted why. <br /><br />Also get over believing synthetic is the only oil that runs without fouling plugs. I've had maybe 20+ OB motors thoughout the years and the only plug problems were from me being 14 yrs old and not knowing how to maintain a motor and one from running without a tstat. I have 5 now (1 a 4 stoke) and 2 of them for over 30yrs without "oil" issues. I'm no exception and there are 1,000,000s with the same experience. Does everyone need or care about the values of synthetic...nope.<br /><br />Just like car oil...I change every 3k with filter and use a name brand mineral oil. I typically sell them at 150-200k (counting at 6)and the motors aren't worn out, don't leak or use oil and still run perfect. I sell them because I want a new car. Do I really care that the motor MAY go another 100k with a change to synthetic oil..nope. Does the price of oil changes bother me...nope. Do I need a different oil...nope.